How necessary is alignment after installing new springs?
 

I've heard it's always necessary in the past. Until I installed springs/struts myself on my MR2 and again on my G35 and did not see any way to play with alignment. Everything bolted in one way. Things might've shifted a tenth of a degree or two but stayed within the spec range. A mechanic friend of mine also did not believe an alignment necessary for this straightforward job. Now if we start unbolting things beyond the struts (suspension arms, etc.), then it becomes necessary.

I don't have any tools in my new apartment so I'm getting a dealership to install my springs. They say a $90 alignment is necessary, at least on the front pair. Are they trying to gouge me for money/how necessary is this?

EDIT: This question is for a mild 0.6" drop all around.

It's necessary.

Just because things only bolt in one way, the changes in ride height change alignment.

- Andrew

Very necessary

Yes, very needed. You have changed geometry of the suspension.

Ever see a civic that is lowered and looks duck footed/ pigeon toed? Thats a ricer that sprung for the springs and never paid for an alignment...

:word: Anytime you change ride height you need an alignment.

100% Necessary. Even the slight play in the bolts can effect your alignment.

Rule of thumb: If you mess with the suspension at all, get an alignment. Sway bars are the only exception as they are not locating members of the suspension.

Depends really..

If you read, for example, the Eibach Pro-Kit alignment specs for before and after install - you really don't have to adjust anything on a new, straight, car.

Thanks for all the responses. But like I mentioned earlier, my alignment remained within the OEM specified range after I swapped the springs/struts out myself leading me to believe that even the slight play in bolts had not much effect. I've watched shops adjust my alignment and noticed they don't adjust any strut housing bolts that I touch when I install springs/struts. They're torquing bolts in the suspension arms that I never touched. I guess my question should be have any of you guys gone out of alignment when only installing <1" drop springs/struts? It's easy to say, yes, it theoretically could happen. But I wonder if anyone has experienced this firsthand because my firsthand experience (twice) tells me the change in alignment is negligible.

The Eibach Pro-Kit is a 1" drop. The springs I'm installing are only a 0.6" drop developed specifically to work with the OEM struts. Is 0.6" really enough to put geometry out of spec?

90$ is cheap for a dealer... Do it

the rear toe setting change was negligible with a 1" drop. I didn't change it after measuring. And considering rear camber isn't adjustable, I was fine. The front "may" be the same if you don't touch camber, but I added 3 degrees, and consequently hand to adjust toe.

I'm going to have the reputable Subaru shop only install my springs for $700. They're already upcharging me compared to $550 at the less reputable Subaru shop which hasn't installed any springs "in a while." That's why I'm hesitant to throw more money at the 1st shop for an alignment. Then I'm going to a nearby tire shop for a free alignment check and, if needed, $80 for alignment. But the tire shop doesn't have access to alignment specs for any 2013 models.

Does anyone have the BRZ alignment specs they can send me?

Geez. Just burn your wallet man.

If you're going to lower the car the wrong way, then just cut the springs and no alignment the cheap way.


Not recommended of course :)

I have no choice. No table/vice. No jack/stands. No room to store all that. No helper to bleed brakes if necessary. But mostly no time. :(

Nevermind I think I found the specs:

Front Alignment:
OE Camber = 0.00 deg (+/-0.75 deg)
OE Caster = 5.9 deg (+/-0.00 deg)
OE Total Toe = 0.0 deg (+/-0.18 deg)

Rear Alignment:
OE Camber = -1.25 +/-0.75 deg.
OE Total Toe = 0.12 deg. +/-0.18 deg

Wrong, the specs won't change but the measurements will be different, the alignment shop will have to adjust them and while you're getting your springs replaced, get them to replace the front upper bolts to adjustable ones, they will need those to get your car to the specs

One of the issues is....forgot the OEM specs, they stink. So it may be "within range of OEM" but you can do a lot better if you add the 10 dollar factory camber bolts.

And my goodness that's an expensive spring install. Make a weekend trip somewhere else, stay overnight, have a fancy dinner and you'll still come out way ahead.

- Andrew

When you lower the car you're obviously changing the ride height. As the suspension moves through it's range of motion the toe and camber will change due to the design of the suspension. This is done purposely by the engineers who designed the car. For example: As the rear suspension is compressed the wheel camber will decrease to give you more rear end grip when turning.

When you lower the car you're essentially putting the suspension in a place where it's only meant to be when cornering / going over bumps. When in this area the settings could lead to quicker tire waer.

Uh .. is that supposed to be cryptic or something? The specs won't change but the measurements will?

Get outta here

As much as I know, the spec is what the maker (subaru) asked their production line to set the car, the measurements, for me, is the readings we get on the car when the alignment heads are on the car

Well of course it won't be exact to "spec" ... but "spec" isn't the only thing that works.

My Soarer is so GD far from "spec" it's insane but it's great!

I will get my car aligned by Friday, I will scan the data sheet to MY specs ( probably around 1.5 deg front camber ) than I will post those with my impressions, I did drop with Tein H Tech and installed subaru upper camber bolts

UPDATE:

In regards to the high quote... it's 1.5 hrs per corner to install springs so the quote is based on hourly labor rate x 6 hrs. Regardless of whether it takes a veteran 3 hrs or a n00b 8 hrs to do the same job, all techs get clocked for 6 hrs all the same (across all Subaru dealerships). I couldn't bargain down the 6 hrs but did apply a coupon and I talked the hourly rate down to total $530 before alignment and tax.

Alignment even after a modest drop should be needed... *theoretically*. I used to accept this as truth because everyone like the first few posters here says alignment is always needed. So I always used to pay that extra $90 for alignment (which costs "nothing" as some of you call it) without question. But who honestly thinks the tech will take time to tell your service invoice writer, "BTW I checked that car's alignment and didn't need to make adjustments so you can take that item off the invoice." Never.

Anyway, after they installed the springs they checked my alignment afterwards because I asked them to check but not do the alignment. Lo and behold... IT WAS STILL WITHIN SPEC after the drop. No camber bolts, no nothing needed. For the 3RD TIME IN A ROW for me *in practice* an alignment wasn't needed.

Well okay...I lowered my Celica 2" back in my younger years when I was like, "ooh! A low car! How fun! Alignment? Psh!"

And so over time, my alignment is totally fucked to the point that my steering wheel was noticeably, but slightly, turned when driving straight. Then 2 years later, I get a flat tire.

I assumed it was from construction work around my house, but I get to NTB and the entire inner half of my front tires are down to wires, while the outer half is just balding. So there's literally a 3-4mm change in rubber height right in the middle of my tires.

Another year or so later, I notice my back tires are wearing and they look super negatively cambered. Dunno why it's been several years, but they are starting to wear fast and changing the rear suspension is not possible on a stock Celica. So I had to pick up some camber links to fix the rear.

So getting an alignment after dropping? Fuck yeah. And I don't know how adjustable the rear camber is on the BRZ, but you'll definitely want to look into camber links.

Throughout this thread I've been asking if it's necessary for a mild drop. My drop is only 15mm (0.6").

I also had a Celica with 1.5" drop TRD springs/shocks. I did an alignment back then. But since then all my subsequent cars have only had moderate drops or just straight OEM spring/strut replacement and alignment stayed within spec/wasn't needed. And slight correction to my previous post... alignment stayed within spec after installation for my MR2 Spyder on TRD springs/shocks, MkII MR2 on TRD springs/shocks, G35 on stock shocks/springs, and now BRZ on STI springs/stock shocks so this actually marks the FOURTH time in a row an alignment wasn't needed after a mild-to-no drop in height.

An alignment is actually recommended off the showroom floor, after a spring install, and every 12 months because of the allowable tolerances. The factory tolerances are horribly large meaning that you can drive your car off the lot with -0.5 camber on the driver front and +0.7 camber on the passenger front and you'd still "be in spec", and technically not need an alignment. however this alignment config is terribly bad from a handling perspective. In this same example we then proceed to drop your car .6" and the alignment settles at -0.75 camber driver side and +0.75 passenger, and you're still "within spec" but having a total camber of 1.5. Obviously this is a worst case scenario but you get the concept. From a practical standpoint most will wait till they install springs in order to get the alignment to it's correct 0 camber setting +/- .05 but if you never install springs you'd still benefit from an alignment that corrects to within +/- 0.05 of manufacturer spec.

From a business standpoint, the manufacturer specifies the tolerance as the least noticeable variance that will result in the warranty remaining untouched while allowing the factory technicians to align the most number of vehicles in the least amount of time in order to meet ship windows.

needed.

I know that everyone says that the car needs an allignment after a mild drop spring replacement(with lets just say a 1" lowering spring) but how would you or the allignment place actually do any sort of wheel allignment on a factory 86/BRZ which has no allignment adjustablities from factory?the only thing i can think of them being able to adjust is front toe at the steering arms. how about the camber and caster(since there are no camber/caster adjusting bolts in the front/ rear arms)?(correct me if im wrong) what would the allignment place actually be doing other than just a numbers printout from a machine...?

related question... if i (for example) put new 17x8 rims/tires with different offset (35)... and dont mess with the springs or height of the suspension....

do you need to do alignment on it ??

thanks

If you're just putting new wheels on, no. Nothing in the suspension system has moved if you change wheels, otherwise everytime you rotate your tires you'd need an alignment.

Always get an alignment about 200-500 miles after installing any lowering springs. Been in the modification business for 10+ years and if you don't do an alignment you will have tire and handling issues, at least it won't be optimized for the drop.

-Mike Paisan

http://www.pbase.com/paisan/image/91072632.jpg http://www.pbase.com/paisan/image/14...8/original.jpg http://www.pbase.com/paisan/image/133406601.jpg http://www.whiteline.com.au/images/logos/perf1.jpg
11+ Years Maintaining, Modifying and Educating TriState Subaru Enthusiasts.
Call directly as We carry almost every manufacturer now, so before you buy parts call us.
Like us on Facebook! | E-mail: sales@azpinstalls.com | 725 Fairfield Ave | Kenilworth, NJ 07033 | 908.248.AZP1 (2971) | T-1 Certified Amsoil Direct Jobber |AIM: AZP Installs
"Race Tested, Enthusiast Approved!"

Just to clarify...do you mean within the first 200-500 miles or to deliberately wait 200-500 miles prior to an alignment?

Good question. You want to actually wait for 200-500 miles so that the new springs can settle. It takes that long for them to actually settle. If you do it on the same day, which most shops will try to make you do, as the springs settle during those 200-500 miles the alignment will come out over that period, requiring yet another alignment. What we do at our shop is give a package deal of spring install + alignment, however we allow them to come back after the 200-500 mile time period to get the alignment so that it is done correctly.

-Mike Paisan

http://www.pbase.com/paisan/image/91072632.jpg http://www.pbase.com/paisan/image/14...8/original.jpg http://www.pbase.com/paisan/image/133406601.jpg http://www.whiteline.com.au/images/logos/perf1.jpg
11+ Years Maintaining, Modifying and Educating TriState Subaru Enthusiasts.
Call directly as We carry almost every manufacturer now, so before you buy parts call us.
Like us on Facebook! | E-mail: sales@azpinstalls.com | 725 Fairfield Ave | Kenilworth, NJ 07033 | 908.248.AZP1 (2971) | T-1 Certified Amsoil Direct Jobber |AIM: AZP Installs
"Race Tested, Enthusiast Approved!"

Well first off all they can adjust the toe, which can/will change when you drop a car. And second if they can't fix it, well you'll know you'll need camber bolts. Easy uh?

The only thing you can adjust on a factory BRZ/FR-S without additional parts is toe.

I'm kind of anal about alignment and "within factory specs" is not good enough for me, so it doesn't matter if you can get them after a mild drop or not. The factory specs aren't that good. :)

It's very much worth it to spend the 10 bucks for the OEM camber bolts to get a little extra camber up front. A big improvement in handling with identical (or better) tire wear than stock.

- Andrew

Thanks for answering guys.

As I had thought. I have got camber bolts to be fitted anyways but was just trying to point out that unless you have other adjustable aftermarket suspension parts fitted, it is prettymuch pointless to get an allignment done with just fitment of lowering springs as the shop would njust be charging you to do prettymuch bugger all as thats all they are able to do with the factory settings other than front toe.

Alignment is not necessary at all after installing new springs. As I have experience of installing new spring for a year ago mechanic advice me for alignment but I continue without alignment still yet and have no problem. Just on Highway I feel little trouble but I overcome it by rotating the steering.

Please stick to what you know. The statement above is a generalization and isn't accurate for these cars at all.

Can we not just delete that post? wow