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Track Test: Edmunds 2013 Scion FR-S with Upgraded Wheels and Tires Pulls 1.0g!

Here's their write up since the upgrade:

VIDEO:

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CFmCOYdlbKM"]Track Tested: 2013 Scion FR-S -- Edmunds.com Video - YouTube[/ame]

Quote:

Inside Line tests hundreds of vehicles a year. Cars, trucks, SUVs, we run them all, and the numbers always tell a story. With that in mind we present "IL Track Tested," a quick rundown of all the data we collect at the track, along with comments direct from the test drivers. Enjoy.

It's been a goal since Day One with our 2013 Scion FR-S: Improve upon what the factory gave us. More importantly, do it in a way that doesn't detract from the car's inherent goodness. Our first step? New wheels and tires.

The idea behind changing the tires will be obvious to anyone who has spent time in an FR-S/BRZ — the stock tires limit the car's potential. We've often said there's more chassis than tire. So we set out to put this notion to the test.

We installed as wide a wheel-and-tire combo as possible on Project FR-S, subject to a few requirements. They had to fit under the stock fenders, retain a near-stock wheel offset, have stock rolling diameter (so as not to affect gearing), retain some sidewall for impact absorption and minimize the weight gain.

After careful calculations, we chose to replace the stock wheels and tires with Rays Volk Racing TE37SL wheels. They are the same diameter (17 inches) as the factory wheels, but 1.5 inches wider (8.5 inches compared to 7 inches). The forged Volk Racing wheels are also lighter at 16.2 pounds apiece (the stock wheels are 22 pounds each). Offset is 45mm compared to 48mm stock.

Picking tires was no easy task, but we settled on Yokohama Advan Neova AD08 sized 245/40 all around. These are far more aggressive summer tires than the stock Michelin Primacy HP tires, but more importantly they're still street tires, not overly aggressive R-compounds.

After some scrub in miles we headed for our test track to see how it would measure up against the stock setup. As you can see, the results were impressive. It stopped shorter, was easier to weave through the slalom and turned in a skid pad performance that is unprecedented for a car in this price range.

Keep in mind that these results were achieved with the stock alignment, and it is possible that grip and slalom speed could be improved further still with changes to the alignment.

Scion FR-S Scion FR-S Modified
0-30 (sec): 2.3 2.3
0-45 (sec): 4.2 4.2
0-60 (sec): 6.5 6.5
0-60 with 1-ft Rollout (sec): 6.2 6.2
0-75 (sec): 9.6 9.7
1/4-mile (sec @ mph): 14.8 @ 93.6 14.8 @ 93.7
30-0 (ft): 28 28
60-0 (ft): 114 107
Skid Pad Lateral Accel (g): 0.89 1.0
Slalom: 67.5 70.3
Vehicle: 2013 Scion FR-S
Odometer: 5,038
Date: 8-21-2012
Driver: Josh Jacquot
Price: $24,930

Specifications:
Drive Type: Rear-wheel drive
Transmission Type: Six-speed manual
Engine Type: Longitudinal, naturally aspirated flat-4
Displacement (cc/cu-in): 1,998/122
Redline (rpm): 7,400
Horsepower (hp @ rpm): 200 @ 7,000
Torque (lb-ft @ rpm): 151 @ 6,600
Brake Type (front): 11.7-inch vented discs with two-piston sliding calipers
Brake Type (rear): 11.5-inch discs with single-piston sliding calipers
Suspension Type (front): Independent MacPherson struts, coil springs, lower control arms, stabilizer bar
Suspension Type (rear): Independent multilink, coil springs, stabilizer bar
Tire Size (front): 245/40 R17 (91W)
Tire Size (rear): 245/40 R17 (91W)
Tire Brand: Yokohama
Tire Model: Advan Neova AD08
Wheel Size: 17-by-8.5 inches front and rear
Tire Type: Summer performance
As tested Curb Weight (lb): 2,737

Comments:

Acceleration: Additional grip changes launch technique slightly. Best launch was at 5,500 rpm. Tires hook up quicker and there's no real bog. Otherwise, nothing has changed from the original setup.

Braking: Definitely got better result here. Solid, consistent pedal feel. I suspect additional grip would mean dead brakes sooner on a track.

Handling:

Skid pad: At last, real grip! After several trial-and-error tire pressure experiments we settled at 38.5 psi when hot which produced the best feedback, response and balance.

We started the tires at 37.5 psi warm (street driving plus one lap of the pad in each direction after entering the speedway) because that's roughly where the tire shop left them — 35 psi cold, I presume. However, after five or six slalom passes they apparently warmed up even more — to 40 psi. After establishing both slalom and skid pad numbers at that pressure we dropped it — significantly. Went down to 34.5 psi. Did this for two reasons. First, we wanted to make a big enough change so that we could feel it. Second, 40 seemed way too high at this point.

At 34.5 psi hot there was significantly less response to steering input and the balance suffered on the pad. Understeer was more prominent and the car felt sluggish to come back from an understeering condition. Slalom times didn't change much but times around the pad slowed down measurably. It made the big change we were looking for, but it wasn't good. So we pumped them back up to 38.5 psi hot.

At 38.5 the skid pad times improved again and both response and feel were back. This seemed to be the sweet spot where both skid pad lap times and feel were the best so that's where I left it. From there, we experienced immense grip without compromise — very impressive for a wheel/tire swap.

Slalom: Feels marginally less tail happy compared to the stock trim. Confident in quick transitions and retains the excellent feedback of stock setup. Predictable, quick and fairly easy to drive here. First run was quicker than stock.

http://www.insideline.com/scion/fr-s...rack-test.html

http://media.il.edmunds-media.com/sc...823124_717.jpg

http://media.il.edmunds-media.com/sc...823122_717.jpg

http://media.il.edmunds-media.com/sc...823122_717.jpg

I totally WANT these wheels now in this exact specification. The stock setup handles so well already. Want to stay close to that.

Article here:
http://www.insideline.com/scion/fr-s...rack-test.html

Video:
http://bcove.me/6mhj9q2e

2013 Scion FR-S Track Test... pulls 1.0g!

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CFmCOYdlbKM"]Track Tested: 2013 Scion FR-S -- Edmunds.com Video - YouTube[/ame]

http://media.il.edmunds-media.com/sc...823121_717.jpg
http://media.il.edmunds-media.com/sc...823123_717.jpg
http://media.il.edmunds-media.com/sc...823121_717.jpg
http://media.il.edmunds-media.com/sc...823121_717.jpg
http://media.il.edmunds-media.com/sc...823123_717.jpg
http://media.il.edmunds-media.com/sc...823121_717.jpg
http://media.il.edmunds-media.com/sc...823122_717.jpg

Quote:

http://www.insideline.com/scion/fr-s...rack-test.html

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sigh-on-Rice (Post 405465)

Wow. 1.0 g!

Of course. Skid pad diameter plays a part though. Not taking anything away from the tire.

Without the numbers, this is what I found when going to 14.5lb 17x7s with 215 R-S3s. The level grip is amazing. I need numbers on how much G load I'm pulling

^^^opps my bad. I guess could mods just merged or deleted thread. Thanks

If someone wanted to absolutely dominate a skid pad test (high speed high g) on a DOT / street tire, what should they be looking at for gear?

So response and feel can change based on tire pressure?

Quote:

Originally Posted by empower-auto (Post 407689)

If someone wanted to absolutely dominate a skid pad test (high speed high g) on a DOT / street tire, what should they be looking at for gear?

#1, good tires like R-S3s or Star Specs. #2 would be light, wider wheels. #3 would be quality coilovers. KWs or JRZs. To go more extreme, remove weight from the car.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SUB-FT86 (Post 407735)

So response and feel can change based on tire pressure?

Very much so. The same tire as 32 psi and 36 psi will feel much different in response. In autocross where you make short jogs, you use high pressure before higher pressure tires tend to turn in better than lower as they have less surface resistance. But too high will sacrifice a lot of grip so it's a balance. Every tire compound is different. On road course where you build up a lot of heat, run lower pressure since more heat adds more pressure. I start at 30-32 on my RS3s on track vs 35-36 on autocross.

nice very helpfull info

I don't put any faith into insideline 0-60 times or anything timed for that matter.

nice wheels and tires. damn firestorm look so sexy...i sometimes wish i had it but i love rally blue too.

Nice, I've always liked smaller wheels for the weight savings. Where is the best place to pick these up at?

Quote:

Originally Posted by nashsnazzy (Post 413278)

Nice, I've always liked smaller wheels for the weight savings. Where is the best place to pick these up at?

Evasive Motorsports
Vivid Racing
Rav Spec

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CFmCOYdlbKM"]Track Tested: 2013 Scion FR-S -- Edmunds.com Video - YouTube[/ame]

I wonder then what 38.5psi hot translates to when cold. Maybe around 33?

I really thought the acceleration numbers would be improved with the lighter wheels and more grip, guess not haha.

This are pricy these rims in Australia how are they is USA?

Its funny they tested tire pressure because i did the same thing they actually did like 3 weeks ago. When hot my tire pressure was at 40-41psi and was messing up my 0-60 runs while i was testing on visconti's tune.. i let them cool down and put it down to 32.5-33 psi cold and now when hot they reach like 36.5-37 which for me seemed to have the best grip on stock tires. If u go lower than i think 32 the tire pressure light comes on because it happen to me twice when leaking air out of my tires.

This is interesting, compared to the results of testing the Z1 Star specs on stock wheels, where the 215-width tires improved lap times by 2.x seconds, and the 235-width tires actually decreased performance. The difference must be in the weight reduction of the Volk wheels.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RebootWindows (Post 425874)

This are pricy these rims in Australia how are they is USA?

~$800 per wheel

~$700-$750/wheel with Vivid Racing and Evasive Motorsports here on the forum

Given the width of tire they chose 1 g doesn't really impress me. It's pretty much in line with expectations. Fun to see the acceleration numbers stay the same. Then again approaching 3 grand for a set of wheels they damn well better be light. Won't see me running VOLK$.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Turbowned (Post 425887)

That was versus upgraded tires in 215 though, not stock.

Right, that's what I meant, sorry.

Quote:

It's been a goal since Day One with our 2013 Scion FR-S: Improve upon what the factory gave us. More importantly, do it in a way that doesn't detract from the car's inherent goodness.

This is a good goal and the Volks are sex.

DAMN looks beautiful with those wheels, maybe some RCE springs and it be set. OFF topic but it looks nice. lol

Quote:

Originally Posted by SVTSHC (Post 425830)

I wonder then what 38.5psi hot translates to when cold. Maybe around 33?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ideal_gas_law

You can calculate this pretty easily but you need some hypothetical temperatures to go off of.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Turbowned (Post 425887)

If you're talking about the Road and Track test, the wider tires were also 1" taller than stock. So it's a completely invalid test. Just forget it exists.

As for this review they went only 2mm larger, so gearing isn't an issue.

From my experience going to the same tires in 235/40-17 size, they'd get an even better result if they just install crash bolts and get some negative camber up front. With just tires and a real alignment this car is no doubt a "G" car.

i don't understand this 1g lateral pull number, can someone explain this?

I think it would be very useful for someone to take an FRS and have a day full of wheel/tire comparisons. Imagine a single test that could answer questions regarding height, weight, width of various wheels and an appropriate spread of tires on each of these... I can see it now, a world where we have enough evidence to know how each variable affects performance on this car, and we can zone in on some ideal ranges...

StockW, StockT = x g's,
StockW, TireA = y g's,
StockW, TireB ...
(Yes I would measure more than just g forces)

::zoning out into fantasy land::

I think that test would be impractical unless they also had more than one car because the brakes would get too much work. It's a good idea but probably prohibitively expensive unless someone donated/sponsored specifically for it. Which I can't really see happening.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SuperDave (Post 426328)

i don't understand this 1g lateral pull number, can someone explain this?

1 "G" is acceleration equivalent to the acceleration of gravity. In this test, it's the amount of force acting sideways on the car. Think of the old bucket of water on a rope experiment. You spin it around and the forces keep the water in the bucket. In this case, the forces are trying to pull the car off line.

So this car, with just a tire change, is capable of resisting a WHOLE FR-S on a string trying to pull it off line in a corner. Not many cars can do that on the stock suspension. And those cars tend to cost multiple TIMES what the FR-S does.

:offtopic:
Was the guy in the video severally cross eyed or did he just not like looking at the camera? I had no idea where he was looking and I felt awkward.

Quote:

Originally Posted by whitejdm (Post 425865)

I really thought the acceleration numbers would be improved with the lighter wheels and more grip, guess not haha.

Well perhaps higher grip tires are heavier that stock ones hence negating the weight advantage of Volks.. I am too lazy to look up the weight of the tires thhough hence can't claim this is really the case.

Quote:

Originally Posted by justaquestion (Post 427110)

This is not true at all, if you go look at tirerack test figures, MANY cars, that weren't even built for performance driving, can pull 1G with a wheel/tire upgrade on stock suspension.

Also, unless you are testing all the same cars on the same surface or a very similar surface, its hard to compare the lateral g's accurately. Different surface compositions and textures can give different results.

I bolded the contradiction in your argument. Why would you state it's difficult to compare lateral g's from different test tracks, then compare Edmunds' results against Tirerack's? :iono: Anyway Draco-REX is right, very few cars are pulling 1.00 g or greater on Edmunds' test track.

I posted this on a different thread, but thought this might be useful to see here (skidpad / slalom / 60-0). All tests done by Edmunds on their test track, i.e., same location and methodology.

As someone else on the forum pointed out, the FR-S is VERY close to the Elise in the three metrics of handling measured. And the Elise is wearing better/stickier tires. The FR-S on similar tires (A048 or similar DOT-legal competition tire) would likely match the Elise, that's crazy if you think about it.

Very impressive showing by the FR-S. I would guess it was tested on summer performance tires during development.

[1.00-1.04 g]
1.04 g / 71.3 mph / 102 ft -- 911 Carrera S (Pirelli P Zero P-spec)
1.03 g / 71.6 mph / 109 ft -- Elise (Yoko A048 LTS)
1.00 g / 70.3 mph / 107 ft -- FR-S (Yoko AD08)

[0.95-0.99 g]
0.99 g / 72.3 mph / 102 ft -- Boxster Spyder (Bridgestone RE050a P-spec)
0.99 g / 70.7 mph / 112 ft -- Evo X GSR (Yoko A048)
0.98 g / 71.0 mph / 103 ft -- R8 (Pirelli P Zero A-spec)
0.98 g / 69.7 mph / 103 ft -- Corvette (Eagle F1 Supercar)
0.98 g / 69.1 mph / 109 ft -- Shelby GT500 (Eagle F1 Supercar G:2)
0.97 g / 71.3 mph / 105 ft -- Cayman R (Bridgestone RE050a P-Spec)
0.96 g / 74.0 mph / 98 ft -- GT-R (Bridgestone RE070R)
0.95 g / 73.3 mph / 100 ft -- E90 M3 Coupe (Michelin PS2)

[0.90-0.94 g]
0.93 g / 70.4 mph / 105 ft -- 370z (Bridgestone RE050a)
0.91 g / 71.1 mph / 119 ft -- MS3 (Dunlop SP Sport 2050)
0.91 g / ???? mph / 109 ft -- E46 M3 Coupe (Yoko AD07)
0.91 g / 70.4 mph / 115 ft -- Nismo 370z (Yoko Advan Sport)
0.90 g / 70.2 mph / 112 ft -- STI (Dunlop SP Sport 600)
0.90 g / 69.7 mph / 108 ft -- 135i (Bridgestone RE050a)

[0.85-0.89 g]
0.89 g / 69.6 mph / 112 ft -- GC 2.0t R-Spec (Bridgestone RE050a)
0.88 g / 69.3 mph / 131 ft -- NSX (Bridgestone RE730)
0.88 g / 68.5 mph / 114 ft -- GC 3.8 Track (Bridgestone RE050a)
0.87 g / 67.1 mph / 121 ft -- Civic Si (Michelin PE2)
0.87 g / 66.1 mph / 112 ft -- Mustang V6 PP (Pirelli P Zero)
0.86 g / 64.9 mph / 110 ft -- NC Miata (Bridgestone RE050a)

1) Only compares cars with performance summer tires (no R compounds or all-seasons).
2) Only uses numbers from Edmunds track tests to keep methodology and venue the same.
3) FR-S and competitors bolded.

Quote:

Originally Posted by exmayol (Post 426788)

I figured it out. the tires weigh 6lbs more than stock and the wheels weigh 5.6 less than stock. total weight gain of 1.6lbs, well worth the added grip imo

Hehe, this is about two weeks after I finally got these:
http://chattypics.com/files/20120826...npam8gsr3v.jpg

Volk TE37 17x8 +38
Toyo Proxes R1R 235/40/17 (140 treadwear rating)

Yeah; not quite as wide as 17 x 8.5 / 245mm, but pretty close, and it feels like lots more traction. I could easily make the Primacy tires scream in VSC Sport mode, but not these; in public road driving, they stay glued to the road. With the Primacy tires, I could easily pull of a 1st-to-2nd shift tire chirp; with the R1R's, I could only get them to chirp once, when I was accelerating as hard as I could. As for the offset, I love the look of "10 out" (10mm out toward the fenders), and it does seem to offer more cornering stability, at the cost of being off-center; I know that I'm going to have some people criticize that setup, but back when I ordered these wheels, no one knew about the fitment, so I was going safe, trying to make sure the tires wouldn't rub on the inside, against the front springs. It turns out that the insides are exactly as far as the stock fitment, but the outside of the wheels are just barely inside the wheel wells.

Yes, I Need Moar Low, but first things first: I need to learn how this car handles in this new configuration. I have autocross coming up on Sunday.