Anyone feeling amped up?
 

I was sitting at work today when I thought about something there's going to be a new 2012 Civic Si, next year, when the FR-S comes to US shores

and hopefully they'll both be in the same price range

which mean the Honda FF vs. Toyota FR rivalry may be coming back!

is anyone else excited about this?

No. Honda sucks

Yeah...Honda and Toyota have both fell off into the eco friendly luxury wanna be realm. The 2012 Civic is already getting pretty bad ratings and for being the 9th gen it pretty much overall looks the same as the 8th. I'm diggin' all the stuff Nissan has put out and even Hyundai is putting out some quality stuff. Hopefully the Fr-s/Ft-86 puts Toyota back in the game and if it's as good as being hyped up to be it'll blow the Civic out the water...

No only honda sucks

Honda is dead to me. They're an even less exciting brand than Toyota. Everyone's already saying the 8th gen Civic was a better car than the 9th gen. No more S2000, no more NSX. Oh, they're bringing back the Beat! But it's FWD and fat... Korea is where to look for an exciting rivalry brewing on the horizon, they're doing a lot of things right.

.

Toyota doesn't suck, they're just well overdue for a sports car.

agree... except that they're not going to fill that need and give the ft86 to scion... =P

THIS

12' Civic Si is actually a nice car. Maybe not the looks, but if it handles anything like the 08'+ then that K24 it is going to have is the cherry on top of that whip cream topped sundae. That's like the FT86 putting 200hp on the initial release and then whipping out a turbo or high output 2.5L model. And yeah the FT86 could get uglier down the line as it's being refreshed.

So I think the FF vs RWD rivalry is back like the OP stated. Although I think the Honda will come out on top. Being already developed, easily modded and tune responsive K24 paired with their awesome transmissions is a win win. Honda has always produce fun sporty FWD compact cars. The EP3 SI is the only exception, in the US that is when it was neutered with that 160hp k20a4, but it you put the proper RSX a2 head during that time it was a fun car.

OT: I also think I'm one of the few that STILL loves the center console dash mounted shifter in the EP3, but you're talking to a guy who had a FLP road race shifter that was like 12" taller in his CRX.
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c2...c/IMG_1776.jpg

I agree that both are dead or near dead, but Toyota has had a flatline pulse since 1996 IMO. Supras are great GT cars but I never enjoyed driving them, so once the MKII MR2 left the lots, Toyota died to me.

Honda has at least kept some spirit alive. The CR-Z isn't the most fun to drive car ever, but it is where Honda (and almost everyone else) will be taking sports cars until car buyers realize that the Eco movement using batteries is about the dumbest idea ever and start building better technologies as an alternative to the gas/diesel fuels ICE. The faster CR-Z might be a great car, depending on the specs. 200hp is about my limit for FWD cars, but a CR-Z with 200HP and revised steering feel would be a car I'd be extremely interested in.

Outside of that (and the Yaris/Fit, both of which can be amusing to drive, Yaris if setup with coilovers, etc), both Honda and Toyota are only selling appliances.

First, the FLP shifter serves a real purpose. Except for the side to side play, I love the FLP shifter. It's not "mad tight short shifter yo!" like so many people feel is better, but for track use, it's great.

I've not a fan of the K24 in the Si, simple because of the lower redline. It goes against what the car has been for a long time now IMO. However I haven't driven one so I'll reserve judgement until then.

Personally I still find the double wishbone B series powered cars to be much more fun to drive than the Mac strut K series cars. The RSX was a massive disappointment to me.

I agree with a lot of what you said though. Hell once I buy a SubScioYotaWhatever I'll compare laptimes at Sebring against my 14/15 year old FWD Honda. :P

There's a new one? but they just released the current one Im confused...

The new one they just came out with is the 2012 model or 9th gen.

Personally I think its funny to see everyone say Honda sucks but Toyota is just overdue for a new sports car XD they both did the same thing wwith toyota beatin honda to the make everything boring route 1st.

Honda makes great cars I hate honda fan boys but honda themsleves make great cars I personally believe and they have lots of ability to produce something great (s2k, nsx and maybe new nsx)

I agree about the new gen of Hondas tho they aren't as much fun as their older B series siblngs tho I do think the K series is a better engine it just doesn't have the violent cam switch that the B series vtec did. K20A is what the RSX should of come with that engine is amazing.

This is most fanboyistic thread ever!!! Let me break it down for the fanboys. Both Toyota and Honda sucks!!!! Its only now because they are building the FRS that you guys think it never sucked. What about the period of having no Supra or serious sports car from Toyota? Please dont tell me about the celica and the ugly ass underpowered mr2 roadster. And what if other cars priced close to the FRS spanks it? All I see is illusions of grandeur in this thread. Lol

+1


http://www.blogcdn.com/www.urlesque....2938115936.jpg

Besides Subaru's STI and the Nissan GTR, all of the main Japanese manufactures for the US market have fell off. The 90's was when Japan was running the show with all the big names having their own flagships; Supra, NSX, RX7, 3000GT, 300Z TT, Starion Turbo, 240sx, MR-2, GSR/Type R, CRX, SE-R etc. That was a very fun era! I'm sure there are a few here that remember going to the Toyota dealership and seeing a brand new Supra with a mid 40K sticker! Those were the times!

Now all of them pretty much suck a fat one when it comes to cars. It's a damn shame! :thumbdown:

:< I remember when I was a little kid that saw that supra and NSX at the dealers. I wanted my dad to get it. LOL

^It seems like domestics did what we wanted the japanese car companies to do. They all brought back old school muscle cars...Camaro, Challenger and modeled the new ones to a more classic look...mustang, Charger...wish japanese companies would do the same.

When I graduated h/s, the Supra ended several years later. :sigh: Even while I was in h/s my older brother would take us to different dealerships to drool over the Japan super cars! Each dealership had their flagship car in the showroom and all of them were beasts. :bow:

I remember going to Rose Toyota and there was a white hardtop Supra, new car smell, Cush Acura had a bright red NSX, new car smell, Nissan at Mile of Cars with their black 300zx TT, Ball Mitsubishi and their pearl white 3000GT VR4!!

Now if you go to the dealership showroom floor, all you see is garbage, except for Nissan and Subaru but the passion isn't like how it used to be.


The re-released muscle cars are nothing compared to the 70's ones. These will never become classics only b/c those who grew up in the 70's as kids are now older and want those cars. The generation is changing and if you saw the last Mecum Auto Auction here in OC, the classic muscles didn't fetch too much.

Japan needs to bring them back but with emissions becoming more strict, it's seems as though their priorites have shifted.

You suck too

I hope the Honda drivers wont even think of messing with this car (although it may start out as a close rivalry) ... but of course I see them trying to impress STI's around here all the time, hahaha. Ricers :slap:

I see someones butthurt....LMFAO!!!

There are as many ricers with Toyotas, Mazdas, etc percentage wise as Hondas.

Classify the owners, not the brand.

<< Who has zero-rice hondas.

That may be true worldwide, but not in southern CT. Like 8 out of ten modified hondas are riced.

[u2b]lj3iNxZ8Dww[/u2b]

:confused0068::eyebulge::laughabove::bellyroll:

I shouldn't laugh. She is Miss South Carolina and deserves some respect. She just has a confusing epigrammatic style which leads to an ignominious outcome.

She sucks too

okay..?

Still doesnt take away all you guys praising Toyota and trashing Honda when there isn't much that seperates them.

They are both Japanese car companies who had their golden age of sports car back in the 90s.

2012 Civic sucks. 6700 rpm redline? for a 4 banger? compare that to their only rwd car, the s2000, with a redline of 8000! If you have ever sat in a car with a redline like that, youd understand why its so important.

I wonder if it can be flashed to get a higher redline though. Imagine a 2.5l 4 cyl with a redline of 9000? lol

I'll pass on the 9k redline. Having to tach up to 5500rpm to see the torque curve start to climb is not my idea of a fun driving experience. 7500rpm for an NA motor is more than plenty. Hopefully it starts to feel sexy around 4k.

The AP1 2.0 s2k does have a 9K redline.

Why would a lower redline mean that theres more torque int the low end in this case?

Notice I put reflashed to a higher rpm... AFAIK, in a reflash for higher rpm, you dont do anything to the low end.

I noticed. I'm wondering why you would reflash to raise the rev-limiter/fuel cut-off? Do you think increasing the redline automatically gives you more power? It does not, but you are giving yourself less reliability. The manufacturers aren't just throwing low redlines at you to piss you off. There is usually a reason for the fuel cut-off or rev-limiter to be placed where it is.

Look at the EJ25, the engine is good till 7k, they limit it to 6400 to be cautious. The primary limiting factor and reason for being cautious is the crankshaft's inability to oil the internals at higher RPMs. So unless you're going to increase the bore on the lubrication holes, as well as lighten the rotating assembly and rework the valve train, you're not going to notice any performance increase.

http://img262.imageshack.us/img262/7...vsstockga7.jpg

Dyno of a 2.5RS. Thinner line is the baseline with factory internals. Darker line is a reflashed 2.5 with Delta wild cams, OBX headers, Magnaflow cat, 2.25" mandrel midpipe, prodrive axel-back, Cobb intake, and LW crank pulley (~$2200).

The factory power band starts to fall on its face well before the redline, just increasing it wouldn't give you any more usable power. It wasn't until after over 2grand in parts that he squeezed a noticeable bit of power out of it.

Granted this isn't the motor going in the FR-S, but I highly doubt the FR-S motor will be a game changer.

There are reasons to raise rev limiter, although the only ones I can think of for a stock cam/valvetrain setup would be to keep the motor in the powerband between shifts and to allow a couple hundred more revs before braking for a corner on track. There are tons of times that I'm bouncing the limiter in a given gear because it doesn't make sense to shift up, just to downshift a second later... extra revs will give you another couple MPH in those areas.

Now once the cams, etc are modified and you can make power above the stock redline, well the reasons are pretty obvious then.

The boxer that goes in this car needs to be capable of at least 7.5-8k IMO with no internal changes.

BI understand your love of high revving but the new civic engine (2.4)would be more fun for me because it will give me more readily power and torque for my daily driving habits rather than stressing the engine (2.0) just to make the same power with less torque. I wish honda had installed d/i to the 2.4 so it could be more competitive. I could see the hp/tq rise to 225hp/190tq.

I'm not risking my engine for a MPH or two going around a corner by adding 1000-1500rpm's to my stock hardware. If it's that important to earn those few MPHs, do it right and do the supporting mods.

Bouncing off the limiter depends on the vehicle. Cars like Vettes and GT3s can bounce off the limiter and maintain power. You're not going to lose anything coming around a corner by not being able to tach it out a little longer in cars like that. On the other hand, if it's more like a 370Z that falls on its face when it hits the limit as if VDC was activated, then a few more rev's will help.

I'm not arguing adjusting redline once you get into adding aftermarket parts to support it, it's the idea of just reflashing for more RPMs that I disagree with.

Agreed, that's why I said "7500rpm for an NA motor is more than plenty."

I never meant that 1000-1500 was fine, without supporting changes I wouldn't go past another 400-500. At least with Hondas the OEM valvetrain will handle that all day long, same with other cars I've owned. 1500.. yeah wouldn't attempt that.

I've never been in a car that slowed down from the fuel cut being engaged, maybe it would at the top of 5th/6th or something but I've never been that fast on a track before. :shrug: Not what I was saying anyways..

I wouldn't say more than plenty, I would say the bottom edge of acceptable :) but all of my recent cars didn't fuel cut until 8200+.. so.. :shrug: currently one fuel cuts (stock) at 8200, one at 8500, and one will be 9000 soon (with stock valvetrain that would normally cut at 8500).