Nissan Sakura - The $14k kei car that sold out in Japan
 

There use to be several EVs that had range under 100 miles that were small and light back in the day (see the video of the Mitsubishi I-MiEV at the bottom). This is basically that for a fraction of the price. The I-MiEV was $30k in 2011 or $40k in 2023, adjusted for inflation, so $14k seems like the right price for this size and range, especially as a first car for teenagers or something. Apparently people think so in Japan, as the car sold out.

Do you think this type of car has a place in the US? Personally, I would love a kei car EV as a daily. I would love to see more small cars and CUVs too like the Honda S660 or Suzuki Jimny.

https://www.theautopian.com/nissans-...electric-cars/

https://www.autoweek.com/news/green-...ctric-kei-car/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CKoiqQtz3gU


Mitsubishi I-MiEV
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lprhox5pwhM

I think they would be a great option. Especially in highly congested areas. I have ridden in quite a few though and I will say, they are extremely cheaply built. I think they would need to upscale the quality of the interior a bit for the US market.

Does Japan have lower standards for interiors than the US? That comes as a surprise to me. Seemed like the interior was getting some praise though. For $14k, you get what you pay for I guess, but that is the point, right? For $14k, you get a lot. I think there is a reason it sold out there. Part of it is because cars are more expensive to own in Japan, but it is enough car for the right price too. If I had teenagers then this is what I would buy them. If I wanted something to putt around town then this would be good too. Maybe a kei truck. Probably super cheap used too. Silly these kei cars don't exist in the states. Mini electric is about 2-2.5 times the price for similar range, better quality, about a foot wider and longer, so not as mini. :iono:

The problems with these cars is always the same:

1. People buy vehicles based on a biased and extreme view of their needs, which this doesn't fulfill
2. From a road safety standpoint, it's hard to have these cohabit with 6 000lbs truck
3. Cars are an image product, for better or -mostly- worse. This isn't.
4. They're tough on western builds. The average Japanese male weighs around 140lbs (60 fewer than the American male). And kei cars are built around their morphology.

Which makes them more expensive, and no one will buy them :-)

I don't know. I just know everyone I have been in was a rattly mess. Pieces loose or falling apart after a few years.

I don't disagree with these points, I think the concept is practical though.

1. You mean Americans and not people in general because this vehicle sold out in Japan. Are we really to believe there is zero market for anything this size in the US, especially in an EV format?
2. 6,000 trucks cohabitate with 80,000 18-wheelers to 250lb motorcycles and everything in-between. That doesn't seem to be a problem. :iono:
3. Again, it is sold out. Kei cars have their own car culture in Japan. Riders of the Honda Grom here don't seem to be too concerned about its diminutive size. It has a low price of entry into the motorcycle market and offers a good package for the price with bit of a cult following, which is made larger by the fact that they are easy to learn on and make it possible to practice wheeling. Kei cars don't need to be boring, cheap, disengaging, ugly, etc., but I think they would be best as cheaper cars to fill that void in the market.
4. America has a few skinny people remaining that could buy these cars and fit. They don't have to appeal to everyone. Teens would probably fit better, but that adult in the video looks like he has some spare room for his gut. The vehicle does fit four people, and being an EV, the wheelbase can be far more stretched than something requiring ICE.


This Honda S660 Mugen RA wasn't too bad.
https://collectingcars.com/for-sale/...-s660-mugen-ra
https://collectingcars.imgix.net/011...s&cs=srgb&q=85
https://collectingcars.imgix.net/011...s&cs=srgb&q=85
https://collectingcars.imgix.net/011...s&cs=srgb&q=85

The GM Baojun Yep EV isn't too bad either.
https://insideevs.com/news/669684/gm...ale-11300-usd/
https://cdn.motor1.com/images/mgl/G3...w-driving.webp

No thanks

I always appreciate your contributions :cheers:

Honored

I'd seen a couple standard S660's when I was over there last. They are really cool cars.

Keep in mind my last experience with a kei car was Jan 2018 and they were average cheap family cars bought for their utility. $14k is expensive in that category. A lot of average kei cars over there are 8-10k from what I remember.

I love the S660, would buy one in a minute.

The Sakura is ugly, and nothing unique about it. Something that size needs to have character. This looks like it was built out of a large freezer box.

Also, the range (for me) is useless. It doesn't even meet my commuting needs. (80 - 100 mile round trip).

I think they are going for that Kia Soul or Nissan Cube look. The styling isn't for me, but I think part of the appeal for me for kei/mini cars is just miniature stature and fun of it. I've owned crotch rockets and currently a Ducati, but I found putting around in a Vespa or other scooter on an island entertaining too. Yes, I like my sports car, but I think an EV that is no maintenance and low commitment that putts around town in a small package would be great too like an enclosed golf cart. Most people commute alone for 30-40 miles a day, so something small would be fine; my interior in the BRZ feels huge when I'm all alone.

Small doesn't have to be ugly. I think a Miata and Elise show that small can look good, but really, there are many miniature and kei cars with great designs throughout history. More like this Autobianchi Bianchina or Honda 600. Mobbing around and parking like a boss.

https://hips.hearstapps.com/roa.h-cd...01-cropped.jpg
https://images.cdn.circlesix.co/imag...8cbb8fe3d3.jpg

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...er-beware.html
https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/...1944x1296.jpeg

http://www.speedhunters.com/2022/02/...ka-auto-messe/
http://speedhunters-wp-production.s3...s-1200x800.jpg

Don't get me wrong, I think Kei Cars are cool as f*ck.

I was listening to a podcast on sustainable mobility and the guest kept talking about how there should be a means of transportation between a modern car and a bicycle. This is pretty much it.

No one doubts Keis are a success in Japan. But I highly doubt they'd work here. Even there, they've become a sort of sub-culture because of a legal framework that favors them, and has been around for decades. Would the Japanese drive them were they taxed like any other car? I'm not sure.

You could get fiat 500e's (the 1st gen ones) for dirt cheap some years ago, and despite being appropriately sized, cheap and cheerful, it wasn't exactly a resounding success.

A few Japanese makers tried selling "Europeanized" (read: no more cool turbo 660cc engines) versions of their kei cars for a while, and while they weren't a failure, those weren't exactly a great sales success either. They eventually became their own non-kei spinoffs as they were made bigger for the non-Japanese markets.

Back to the original topic, Dacia sells the Spring here, which is a small EV based on petrol third-world Renault cars. 45hp, 70mph top speed, 140-ish miles range, and about 17 grand after 20% sales tax (though also after deducting a 5 000 EUR cash grand from the government). They sell quite decently as a 2nd, commuter-only car.

https://cdn.automobile-propre.com/up...-2022-main.jpg

I think with EVs, there is more potential for this market. Why? Because of packaging and power. EV motors are really power dense and sit wonderfully between the axels, so they can put a relatively-torquey, small motor between the wheels with more passenger/leg room. It shouldn't feel like a 600cc motorcycle engine that is struggling to move the vehicle, as an ICE kei car might. The Nissan Sakura EV has about the same horsepower as a Honda S660, but double the torque at 144 ft-lbs. Okay, 0-60 is 9 seconds, so it isn't fast, but that is 2.7 seconds faster than the S660 without the potentially off-putting noise and cheap/clunky transmission. It'll be a little quieter, a little roomier, a little more enjoyable and a little less cheap thanks to the powertrain, low COG and stiffness the battery brings to the chassis.


https://www.topgear.com/car-news/ele...kei-car-masses

https://www.topgear.com/sites/defaul...?w=1784&h=1004
https://www.topgear.com/sites/defaul...?w=1784&h=1004
https://www.topgear.com/sites/defaul...?w=1784&h=1004
https://www.topgear.com/sites/defaul...?w=1784&h=1004

Theres a reason why Kei cars in Japan works....its so densely populated there. If you ever been there alot of the roads are very skinny. Even the major open roads are skinny. My mother in law owns a BMW 5 series and its baffling how she can manage to get around there. She once told me one of the benefits of having a car that big in Japan was that everyone gets out of your way lol. Freeways/highways arent a big deal but once you get into the rural areas there are roads where you're basically sharing the road with traffic going the other way, cyclists and pedestrians (which might not even have a sidewalk for them to walk on) The population is very good with sharing the road though so there's really no worrying about some asshole driver being a **** trying to run you off.

These will never work here because they'd be rolling deathtraps against dodge rams, F150's and other cars. Think of a honda civic from the 70's/80's. Door panels on kei cars are paper thin (probably contributes somewhat to how tardis like they seem to be on the inside....that and most of them are shaped like a literal box)

How did the Smart fourtwo fare? How did the Scion iQ fare? They didnt really work out and the only thing those cars (which ARENT kei cars) have in common with a kei car is that they're tiny.

The other thing about kei cars is that they're they're slow for american roads. They feel peppy and fine in japan because kei cars are everywhere and everything is scaled down. you dont feel like that first gen prius trying to get up to highway speeds against semis, rams, accords, camry V6's...etc. hell people bitch and whine about the twins being slow...how could they possibly accept a kei car?

And then the Sakura is popular because a Kei car EV makes sense there...not an Ariya, not a BZ4x....plus you dont need 300 miles of EV range in Japan unless you're planning on driving to another city. Almost everything is walkable, and if not the transit infrastructure is insanely good. I beleive you can travel the entire mainland from north to south just on bullet train....might take a few days but you can do it.

I'm with @Sasquachulator as to why it won't work in the US, plus there is the whole issue of them not even being legal here from a regulatory standpoint. They are only legal in Japan because of their special class.

These manufacturers are in the business of making money. If their research showed these would be profitable in the US they would be building them in the US.

I loved my '77 Honda Civic, but it's size and safety features (or lack thereof) just don't fit in current traffic. Same with these. You'd be safer on a motorcycle.

There is a certain amount of standards that should be included in cars, but like motorcycles, if someone wants to increase their risk then that is on them. It seems silly for companies to be forced into making three-wheeled, passenger cars to circumvent laws. They are clearly handicapping those vehicles, while not really keeping anyone safer, especially when four wheels would be better than three.

https://robbreport.com/wp-content/up...l4.jpeg?w=1000

Again, motorcycles share roads and highways with 80k pound 18-wheelers. There is no reason why the SmartCar or iQ is fine, but this Nissan would be a problem, especially since it is longer and taller than the iQ and weighs as much as a Miata and has a 9” longer wheelbase. It is just narrow, and it uses a bench seat to accommodate a squishier cabin over the iQ.

We have plenty of dense cities in the US with tight roads and limited parking like SF that make kei cars appealing. There are people like me in smaller cities with a short commute without needing to get on the highway that could use a daily that is basic. I think EVs would fix a lot of the shortcomings with kei cars and be able to free up some design constraints because of the smaller motor and longer wheelbase, all while making them slightly safer due to a low COG, no engine, stiffer chassis. It could help get more people into EVs too, especially with ride sharing and autonomous driving in the future.

I think your points are valid, but I also think EVs have changed things, which would make it worth revisiting.

I’m also talking about small cars in general over just kei cars—minicars. There is a number of cool kei cars below, and I’ve mentioned some mini cars already. The government could incentivize people to buy mini-EVs too with tax rebates in the same way Japan incentivizes kei cars. Cheaper cars usually get a break on registration fees and insurance, but the government could do more.

https://www.retromotor.co.uk/features/kei-cars-story/

Autozam AZ-1
https://www.retromotor.co.uk/wp-cont...ry_Kei_Car.jpg
https://carwitter.com/wp-content/upl...-carwitter.jpg
https://youtube.com/watch?v=tn-Z5FHXcBA&feature=shareb

Honda Beat
https://youtube.com/watch?v=XbbxlCzVxdQ&feature=shareb

my state has carved out a dedicated mini truck plate and legal framework.

https://secure.in.gov/bmv/registrati...ense-plate.png

i had no idea it even existed until a year ago when i finally saw 1 kei truck with the plate. haven't seen another since.

kei-vehicles just aren't popular in the states, even when special regulations are carved out specifically for them to thrive.

Diminutive, but ready for FnF.

https://media4.giphy.com/media/v1.Y2...x4Rh28/200.gif

I’m sure you’re not the only one that didn’t/doesn’t know, so that could also be why they aren’t more popular. The article I posted before mentions that the importers are maxed out on kei truck requests. There are probably more around than people think, but overall, how many will be imported? There is a premium to do so. I think there would be more demand if they were sold stateside. I know the Jimny would be a hit and continues to be discussed, as a short-wheelbase, mini 4x4. Smaller trucks in general are missing from the market, so a mini truck would be a hit.

I’ve mentioned the Honda Grom being a hit, but these little pocket bikes have a cult following and stole the show at a Monterey Bay pre-WSB/Laguna Seca impromptu bike show that forms each year.

I agree with this. There could be a strong sliding scale on registration based on size, mpg, whatever criterion works best.

With my wife retiring in two years, and I'm already there, we'll really only need one car with the power and range to go longer distances and/or tow... and the BRZ is likely it for some time. When I replace my Boxster, probably in 2030, I would be content with a small "local runabout" whether a small EV of an ICE Kei car.

The Japanese way is not only to offer reduced tax on Kei cars, but also to heavily tax other types of vehicles.

I don't know all US sales & registration taxes, but waving them altogether may not create a strong enough incentive.

Some states have no registration fees and some have tiny fees and some have larger fees. For a family with three to four vehicles in California, you can be paying a few hundred or over a thousand for all vehicles. We have a Q5, BRZ and Ducati and pay $750-1000. Small and cheap cars are already cheaper, so you are right that it probably wouldn't make a huge different. Like EVs, a federal and state tax credit/rebate would be best, and of course, they could require manufactures selling over a certain number of cars to have an option for mini cars/trucks or something.

Most small cars have already disappeared or will be gone from the N/A Market. The only ones left are the Nissan Versa, Kia Rio and the Mitsubishi Mirage (which is ancient in car years). Yaris is gone, Mazda2 is gone, Fit is gone...Chevy Spark is gone, Hyundai Accent i think disappeared......a kei car is not even a starting point of outside of that 25year old exemption rule (15years in Canada muhahaha)

Jimny is sold in Mexico. Tell me you wouldn't want this beast to go off-roading? Small cars are gone intentionally. It isn't because consumers don't want them. It is because manufactures want to sell the biggest thing possible to make the most money, but it isn't what may be best. We just need incentives. EVs could fix everything that sucks about a minicar; more room, more performance, better safety, better handling, etc. I'm saying we should revisit them and incentivize production and sale of minicars. With robotaxis and FSD cars, seems like these will be there in the future.

https://gumlet.assettype.com/evoindi...pg?format=auto

I disagree. Yes, there is some set of the buying public that would love a small vehicle like this, but at least in the US, it isn't there. It isn't some grand conspiracy, it's just not what the buying public wants in a vehicle any longer in any meaningful numbers.

Just the fact that you think they should be subsidized to drive interest speaks to the interest not being there. The products should stand on their own, as should EVs for that matter.

This is a chicken or the egg type of situation. Are they gone because the public doesn't want them, or are they dismissed by the buying public because larger vehicles are pushed onto the consumer through marketing / availability / etc. ?

There isn't much a 2023 vehicle does that a smaller equivalent from 15 years ago doesn't.

Yes, to some extent it's the OEMs maximizing profits in larger cars, but there are still small(ish) cars or crossovers out there that are not purchased in the numbers they used to be. Admittedly there isn't much in the under $20,000 range any longer.

Part of this has to do with the increase on cost of vehicles vs increase in income. As the ratio rises persons make choices on vehicles that meet more marginal needs (one fits all) vs maybe owning a couple of vehicles (a commuter and a family car).

I just feel like if there was a real niche for cars/trucks this size it would be filled. Look at the recent return of smaller trucks (Maverick, etc). Where there is a market it eventually gets filled.

Its not really a chicken/egg scenario. Small cars just dont sell in big numbers here (Canada is much more accepting of small cars, but they just follow the US so whatever the US does, Canada does). I think initially they were the "cheap" way into car ownership because obviously they used to be cheap. But over time they got expensive and then it becomes used bigger car vs new small car.

And for whatever reason you ask a family who owns a small car and looking to trade it in for something bigger for their growing family....they feel like they need something that is the size of a minivan that ISNT a minivan..... I often ask myself do you REALLY need all that space? do you REALLY need something that big? Apparently they do.

I can't fathom NEEDING anything larger than our BMW X1, it does everything we need it to do in terms of hauling stuff and people.

"Bigger is better" is the mantra here.

a small EV is still going to be a small car, its not changing anything. Minicars are a niche in the US, average joe isnt going to want them because they're cool, they want their bigass dodge RAM for grocery getting and hauling stuff because they "need that space"

I can tell you that in the height of family hauling (3 sons) we would have never survived in the X1. Could we have gotten by with it? Probably. Would it been a nice peaceful experience, nope, nope, nope, not at all.

Our family hauler for 20 years and two versions were Chevy Astros. The best, non-sporty car I ever owned. If they made them today, I would buy one. Between the two I drove over 530,000 miles that were basically trouble free.

Speaking of the Jimmy, my favorite ever modded car was a Jimmy that I ran across when doing some ATV offroading near Daniel Boone National Forest in KY back in the late 90s.

It had four foot high tires and a diesel engine out of a school bus in it with an extended front to cover it. I think the thing could have climbed a tree.

Federal and state governments provide all types of subsidies, grants and tax breaks to individuals, industries and corporations. It does this for housing, healthcare, oil industries, energy industries, meat and dairy, agriculture, education, etc. Despite what you said, I don't think you believe that the government should stop subsidizing meat, right, or that there is no demand for meat and dairy products? There clearly would be less demand if they didn't subsidize the products, which was part of your point, but your point would only be truly valid if there was no demand despite the subsidies, and we should subsidize something if it is in our interests. I'm saying there is demand, but we don't have supply, and it is in our interest to have more people drive smaller vehicles (especially EV variants) than single occupants driving 6,000 trucks and SUVs.

We pay $20 billion on direct fossil fuel subsides each year.
We pay $38 billion on direct farm subsides to support mostly the meat and dairy industry each year.

Just like a Tesla Model S had far more space than a similar sedan in its segment, minicars that are EVs would have more space than minicars with ICEs. The Model S had a frunk and trunk. It had a longer wheelbase, so there was more leg room and passenger space. There was no driveshaft hump, so there was no cabin intrusions into foot areas and into storage compartments.

An EV minicar might have the interior volume of an ICE subcompact. It might offer the safety of a subcompact too.

If the Nissan Sakura was sold for $14k in the US and qualified for $7,500 in tax rebates like other EVs, so it was $6,500, you think these wouldn't sell in the 100k+/year? I would buy one in a second as a daily and as a backup when I'm working on my BRZ.

On the not so small side, GM just announced the vehicle that could use this vehicle as a shuttlecraft. Escalade IQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g3A3oApi460

Wouldn't qualify unless they built it in the US (or changed the subsidy, which seems unlikely) but I agree it would be more spacious and would make a great second car, or town car. Not sure I would recommend it as a first car for a teen.

Doesn't mean any of it is right. Stop subsidizing things and return the money to the folks that earned it. Focus on direct social programs rather than industry social programs.

Will it happen, no, should it, yes.

hah im probably only thinking of a family of four. if the family is bigger, an X1 isnt gonna cut it. Helps that im not a tall american, just an average asian who is shorter so small cars work better for me.

but even still theres families of four out there that need something like...a minivan....really? do you REALLY need a minivan? do you really need an escalade? Excess is the defining factor. Some would need it, some do not.

If we scale it way back down to the Nissan Sakura.....if an X1 isnt going to fit the bill no way in hell a Sakura will.

Just because something is done, doesn't mean it is right or wrong or should continue to be done, even if it has been done for good reasons at one point in time; this is true, but that isn't what I was saying. I was simply saying that just because subsidies exist, doesn't indicate that there is a lack of demand, just like we can all agree that there is a strong demand for meat and dairy products, while we can also agree that many Americans would be priced out of buying meat and dairy products without subsidies.

If we got rid of all subsidies then tax dollars would mostly go back to those that pay the most taxes, which are those with the highest incomes and wealth, so rich people. Some subsidies seem to be redistributing the wealth from the wealthy to other wealth people or just right back to the wealthy people that paid those taxes (reducing their effective tax rate), but there is a lot of subsidies that redistribute wealth back to lower incomes, while also stirring the economic pot to drive investment.

I agree that subsidies would be best if they go to social programs more than corporate programs (trickle up instead of trickle down economics), which is why I am in favor of tax incentives to buy EVs, and why I would like to see incentives for EVs at every level of the income spectrum and not so heavily skewed to large SUVs, premium vehicles and luxury vehicles.