What's the best setup to learn
 

Hey guys,

I started doing track days and autocross this year. For first track day, I went with all stock car, for 2nd track day I did ferodo pads DS2500, SRF brake fluid, camber bolts, and alignment (camber front -2.4,-2.4 rear -1.4,1.6, toe front 0 rear 0.1). I did car control clinic on that and then one autocross.

I don't want to be the fastest guy on track or even have fastest twin. My main objective is to learn to control oversteer, learn the limits. I assume lower the limits are the better (safer). I was thinking about getting 17"x8" wheels and 225 tires like hankook RS4 or GT radial SX2 just for consistent performance during laps.

I have been debating about getting ohlins road and track with ohlins camber plates in future for the direct feel they supposed to give.

I use this car as a daily but I am not dependent on it, I also have another car but trying to keep this usable for road as well. I do not have set budget, I am doing as many events I can, not limited by budget but time. Not looking for any power mods in particular.

Thoughts?

I would just spend more time at the track. You probably don't need much in the way of modifications

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Thanks.

I do think current mods helped it be a little better. For future, tires are going to wear out sometime. The reason I am considering wheels is I would much prefer 17" wheels, the cost is very minor after factoring in I can sell 18" wheels plus I assume tires would be cheaper for every following change. I would be looking for low grip but consistent tire.

Ohlins are just in back of mind.

As was already said, more track time. The great thing about our cars is that they do really well in stock form. The mods that people do are because they are either really serious about their track time or they are really serious about modifying their cars. More seat time will help you decide which of those people you are if not both of those people.

My thought has been to drive the car as-is until I can see that the car is limiting me.

How do you know that the car is limiting you? If you can run the same track/s on a regular basis, with time and coaching, your lap times will drop. Usually, in some big chunks initially. When you start to plateau, that is when you want to start looking at the car's performance.

Once you see that plateau, start reviewing the coaching and the laps that you have already done. What areas seem to keep coming up? Do your coaches comment on braking a lot? If so, maybe you can not feel some of what they are describing because you need bads that give a better feel? Do they talk alot about getting the front tires loaded up more as you turn. Perhaps that's an indication that you need to address some understeer in the car. Whatever the case may be, focus on your skills first, and then you will know when the car becomes the limiting factor.

A better car can make it easier for you to go faster. However, there is far more to learn by you making a lesser car go fast.

Go fast, take chances.

What about tires though? Would you suggest get PS4 again when these wear out probably end of this year?

To clarify, I am not saying car is limiting me neither I am saying I want to make car more capable. I believe GT radial have even less grip than PS4 but stay consistent in performance after heating. More camber in front meant more oversteer at lower speed making it easier for me to learn my objective.

I am neither. I did brakes for safety, I did camber bolts to lessen tire wear, lessen understeer that BRZ has. For tires, 17" are cheaper and comfortable, 225 has more options that's why I am looking at after market wheels, it would make ride better as well. The tires I am looking at have slightly less grip than stock pilot sport 4 as well, looking at those options as they seem to be better for learning.

I would definitely upgrade brake pads to a more track oriented pad when you start melting the DS2500s (won't be long)


225 RS4s are a great choice for a general lapping tire, though they're not very good in the wet at all.

Thanks. Not good in wet would be a big deal breaker in PNW area, especially for track day. Would pilot 4S be able to be consistent for 20 min session?

I'd point you to the Conti ECS for a good rain tire, daily, and able to do some track time. Also some autocross too. 225 on an 8" is solid for learning, plus tire costs.

They're really good for a street and rain tire, but won't be the fastest out there on track days / autocross, but I get that's not you're going for anyways.

As far as the rest of your setup - it's completely fine. The DS2500's are likely not going to be great longer term as you get more advanced on the track. They're great for the street and autocross for their modulation, but aren't intended to be a track pad.

The camber is great - you'll need that for tire wear. I'd keep it simple and don't do a bunch of other modifications. Eventually the suspension will wear out and then you can consider if you do want to get something like coilovers and get more advanced, or get some type of a stock-ish replacement strut/shock and refresh some bushings.

Start by leaving everything alone and go autocrossing a bunch until you can correct any driving mistakes and show improvement on your times.

Then, figure out what the car needs that is limiting you from being faster.

When you start to add modifications, do one mod at a time and then go drive the s**t out of the car to determine what are the new limits of the car (and your driving).

Tried autocross, while it was fun, it was big waste of time. I spent 1.5 hour to go there, 2.5 hours of seating and 1.5 hour drive back for 7 minutes of seat time. I don't want to do that again. I can spend money but not time.

I don't want to make car faster, that was my whole point. I want to make myself a better driver with lower risk (that's why I am looking at low grip but consistent tires). I want to keep limits low and approachable, so that I don't chase mods, as once I put grippy 200rw tire, I would need brakes and then I would need track oriented coilovers, oil cooling and then reliability issues as I am pushing car way above it's limit.

Unfortunately, auto-x is one of the best places to learn car control in safe place. Try looking for other groups that put events on, and don't completely toss auto-x out the window. Also try and find the smaller events, as some regions have one or two "big events" with large turn outs and then many small events where you can get more seat time.

You could also consider trying drifting, many of those groups do intro to drifting events where you will learn to better control the car when in an "oversteer" condition.

Thanks. Not tossing autocross yet, I found a one day school with hopefully I get more seat time. Definitely I enjoyed those 6 laps/7 minutes of driving, used track mode without worrying.

I looked in to drifting before as well and found open drift event but not classes. Seems like that's the way to go. Do rally classes help?

I'm an avid autocrosser, so I'll be biased, but for a good reason.

Our local events are about an hour away. I drive 2-3 hours for some other more regional events. I have a 5-6 hour drive ahead of one at the end of this month. I do about 20+ per year.

For the money, it's likely your best seat time. Especially starting out, it's a good place to learn the limits and push them. Whereas on track, you might not want to go 10/10ths. Hitting a cone is one thing, sliding into a wall at even 50+mph is another.

Not to mention the vast knowledge of everything. The people. The courses that change all the time. Forget about "just seat time". It's about walking to course, talking to competitors about it, learning... even working the course and watching everyone else's line depending on the car they drive. Literally it's 8 hours of constantly learning and picking up on things. It's not just ~5 minutes of seat time.

Drift and rally are two different things, way different from even autocross or the track. Track and autocross are at least more related. Before jumping into just everything, I'd figure out what you're trying to do. If it's get quicker on a track, autocross is likely key. Drift you're just out there goofing around and trying to go way over the limit to slide and play around. Rally is great, but not really for BRZs or a 2023 new car... even rallycross, which I assume is what you're talking about.

If you know you're going to do it a lot, go ahead and get bbk, camber plates and wheels for cheaper tires. they'll save you money in the long run, so just get them now.

Other than that, you dont need anything and likely wont improve faster from it either.

Spend the money on private instruction with a coach. HPDE instructors are great for what they are, which is mostly to get you bare basics and around the track safely. Coaching is a whole different level of learning.

On track day, I spend about 325 for 4 sessions of 20 mins, that 80 mins, $4 per minute. At autocross I spent 70, got 6 laps of average 70 seconds, that's 7 minutes, $10 per minute. I still haven't tossed or autocross as do understand the other value aspect of it, I don't think it's worth driving 1.5 hour but I found another org that arranges event 30ins away, so probably look in to those. The autocross school session I found is all day and is 1 hour away, so I am doing that one.

I asked about rally is because the racer who was my instructor was talking with someone and mentioned that rally driving saved him multiple times on track, I gathered that experience of rally driving teaches control that can be useful when something goes wrong. The reason I want to try drifting or rally driving is to for same reason. I am just trying to gather which sport can teach me what, so the silly questions.

My objective is to learn better car control.

Once I get my car trustworthy again, I want to spend some time on a skidpad.

Do you do SCCA events? How far are you from Summit Point?

Go fast, take chances.

If time is a premium and you want a lot track time per day, look into private memberships.
My track is open 75%-85% of weekends I want to go. $300/mo and it's all I care to drive and I have the option of having a garage at the track. I can easily do 3 hours a day. I can also just go on very short notice. My buddy called me yesterday at 6pm and we decided to go.
It's a better quality of track time too. They're 30 min on/off sessions, so a smaller percent of it is your out lap and cool down lap. Plus, the field is much less crowded.

Only real downside is you won't run as many different tracks. It's not that you can't- you're just as free to go somewhere else one weekend, but you get spoiled. I honestly wouldn't run an HPDE day if it was free. It's not worth my time to sit there all day to run 5x 20 min crowded sessions (5 min of which are wasted getting on/off and one session is always cut short due to to someone screwing up).
You'll also make friends with people who are members at other track and ride their membership.

But it's not really worth it unless you know you're going to do a lot of track days. At least one a month imo. Then you're close to break even compared to most HPDE and get much more time and more quality track time. The $300 garage also saves me a ton of headache, time, cost of a trailer and storing a car + trailer (I live downtown so it's not easy)

Probably not great advice in the "what's the best setup to learn" thread lol.

Thanks, that's very inexpensive, I would check out if it's offered in nearby tracks.

If you’re only getting better when you’re driving the car you’re missing out.

I'm 2.25 hours from Summit Point. I've been there for TrackDaze and NASA events. Road Potomac has offered skid pad sessions there.

Was that with Turn2 you were only getting 4 20min sessions? It is usually at least 5. Look into Skip Track Days down at ORP. It is pretty much open track, 265 for 7 hours. I know it is a long ways from you but it is cheaper. Check ahead of time since they don't always have the on site pumps running so you may have to bring fuel cans. ORP is a very technical track, also very abrasive surface that is hard on tires.

Outside of super 200's not many of the tires out there are that good in the wet in the 200tw range. As mentioned the RS4's are not, neither are the SX2's. I can't comment on the 615's as I only ran them in the dry. I didn't mind the Dunlop Z3 in the wet, they were quite a bit better than the Hankooks when things got moist but not as good of tire wear by a significant margin. Unless you have more then one set of wheels you may be better off with just sticking with the PS4's or ECS for now.

All the guys I know that have done the one day rally school with Dirtfish said it really helped their on track driving.

I'd recommend doing a day with HOD or Performance.

When SCCA has HPDE's on Shenandoah, the infield skid pad is open all day. It is a fantastic opportunity. I will usually hit it 2-3 times on my driving days.

Go fast, take chances.

Thanks.

I haven't been able to do track day with T2 or HOD. Only T2 has evening session but that's in September. I have done track day with TNIA when we last had conversation, then IRDC at Pacific raceways, next one on 14th this month is again with IRDC at Pacific, one next month is with BMW again at Pacific. It's just that I can't make it to ridge early in day, so doing full day events at Pacific.

I was looking at dirtfish recently, just the website, would definitely check them out.

Ahh, okay I remember now. You may try Performance at Pacific. Once you go through their novice program and get checked off for solo they have evening lapping. The novice class is in the morning and after checked off for solo, they run in the afternoon.

Multiple local autox regions in my area have a autox "school" for newbies and a "test n tune" for new and old alike. Both events typically allow more than 20 runs. Last year I taught my son the basics of autox at a TNT and we each had more than 25 runs, limited by rain. The year before I taught my brother the basics at a TNT and we each had more than 35 runs in sunny weather.

I guarantee you will learn more at a TNT with an experienced autox buddy than a whole year at HPDE

My son is now proudly beyond my abilities that I sent him to an Evolution school for finer autox teaching

As far as setup, I think my sons fully prepped SCCA DS car is a balanced platform for learning.
I did the following progression of mods to teach my son, each mod after an autox.

Stock with all seasons and a cat back exhaust for fun.
Camber bolt and alignment
Front sway bar
Used old 200tw tires
Koni yellow shocks
New 200tw on light wheels (Kumho V730s)
Car is comfortable to DD and very balanced at autox

My son and brother are pretty hooked on autox now.
This weekend I'm taking my daughter to a TNT to do the same!

Thanks, missed this post.

Few updates, car is as is, still some tread left on tires. Did an autocross school, followed by autocross event. I have track day tomorrow, then doing one more auto cross and one more track day. I think that will be all for this year.

Which autox / autox school did you do?

I'm very similar to you in that I cannot afford the time/drive-time ratio for autox. My time is just too expensive.

Have you heard of NWAA? You get more drive time with them than your typical 5-7 minutes https://www.facebook.com/groups/296925163404

BTW I'm a Washingtonian also, and sounds like we're at the same level / have the same approach to learning.

I went to Bremerton.

Thanks, just requested to join the group.

That's great, I am in Bellevue WA, I have been keeping my drive to about an hour.

Man what a day was yesterday. Instructor said I can't turn off traction control, so did 2 sessions with all nannies on compared to last event in track mode. For 3rd session I asked if I can go in track mode, he said yes and my driving improved dramatically. In next few sessions, I passed 2 BMW, caught up to a mini and supra, could have passed them as well if I was comfortable tailgating them but I was backing off. Not bragging, just that I think I am keeping momentum better and coming out of corners much faster now. Tires got a lot greasy by 6th session.

Why the hell did you ask?

Everyone was told not to turn off traction control. I wasn't sure how they viewed track mode. I didn't want to be kicked out

2 more updates since last 2 posts

Had a track day with Porsche car club, great guys, got 7 20 minutes sessions with an awesome instructor. I had to turn off track mode after few because I got greedy in a corner and car did a small slide which I was able to catch. After that instructor said to continue with all nannies on. Wasn't that bad without track mode as I had thought.

Did a car control clinic with Porsche yesterday and man it was a blast.

Slalom course
Small and large diameter wet skidpads
Braking and accident avoidance course
Autocross (small loop)
Figure 8

While it was great learning tool, the highlight was after 3:30 there was a autocross setup without anyone to pick up cones or timing and very few people stayed. I got, I think, more than runs. Skid pad is tough and I definitely can use practice so planning to do this course few more times instead of autocross.

For actual mods, I am thinking about getting all seasons and summer set this year. Put all seasons on stock and get 225 pilot sport 4S on 17X8 wheels. If get to limit with those I might look in to other real performance mods.

Get some SX2 instead. Excellent learning tire, last forever. Then upgrade to a better 200TW once you are as fast as your coach on the SX2.

I wanted to but then I would need another set when it's rainy track days. I daily the car but so 4S would be better there as well.

Zero need for that. The 4S and even the more basic 4 is a fine tire for track days.

Even the great drift king uses them :) Unless you're chasing lap times you don't need more grip for track driving no matter your skill level.

I will add as someone who tracks the basic pilot sport 4(4S not available in my size in Ireland) I found their grip in the wet on track to be fine. I wasn't blown away. I was getting passed by most of the hot hatches running a 200tw tire lol.

@ruturaj001 you shouldn't have much issue daily driving and tracking the SX2 rain or shine. BUT there is no need to upgrade.

Also happened to watch this the other day. Listen to how many track events Andy has on his set of 4S
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OuxkXbDGkS8&t=234s