Shifting Down Two Gears on Track
 

I was up a Lime Rock Park for a track day last week. When coming to the end of the main strait, I had been slamming on the brakes and heel-toeing from fourth to third gear going in to Big Bend. I was getting quicker as the day went on, and was eventually reaching the top of fourth gear about half way down the main strait. The rev limiter would beep, but instead of shifting into fifth, I would keep it in fourth, lift off the throttle to prevent the RPMs from going any higher and just maintain speed until the end of the strait (see video below at the 11:11 mark). I think there's more speed to gain if I shift into fifth gear on the main strait, but I'm not sure how to get back down to third at the end of the strait when going into Big Bend.


Sometimes, when braking and heel-toeing from fourth to third, the rev limiter will beep because of the blipped rev matching. If I tried to do the same from fifth to third, I'm afraid I could damage the engine Should I just brake longer before I try the heel-toe blip from fifth to third? Any advice on the best way to handle this would be appreciated. Bonus points for suggestions on how I can practice recommendations for going down two gears on the road (instead of track) where the stakes a little lower. Thanks in advance.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hOhdtyen_WE&t=671s

I just downshift twice (or three times if going from fifth to second like before turn 17 in PIRC). Braking from fifth at 110-120 to reach third gear speeds (50-60) takes enough time to do a heel-and-toe down to fourth and then to third. Doing multiple single gear downshifts also helps prevent money shifting.
If you want to try a single downshift from fifth to third I would wait to do it right before turn in when speed is low enough to not have to worry about a money shift.

Just skip gears.

Skip shifting is really not a big deal. To me, this is a classic Ford vs. Chevy debate, you will have an equal number of opinions, some of them overly passionate. In the end, it comes down to what works for your rhythm, your comfort, etc. I have been shifting from 5th to 3rd going into T1 on Summit Point for 30 years. Haven't broken anything once.

If you want to try it, you will want to delay your shift so that you aren't revving so high. You can easily practice the motion and the feel on the street. Obviously, if you do so, you won't be doing it with the same speed differentials (at least I hope not), but it will get you used to the motion. Going into slow highway off ramps is a good opportunity to practice.

Have fun. Go fast, take chances

There's a lot ways to skin this cat.

I go from about 105 to 55. I used to just pretend I was downshifting twice (two blips) and go 3-5, without putting it into 4th.

You could always just literally downshift twice.

Then I tried to just brake, clutch in for a second and blip right at turn in and go to 3rd. At the end of the day, I just want to come out in 3rd gear at about 4000rpm or so. I found it was easier to look at it that way. Let the clutch out when I get the rpm up. But with a longer braking zone, the rpm would drop to near idle and it took a lot of blip to get it up high enough while I was trailing off, so I didn't like that. Now I'm back to dual blips.


edit: I can't figure out how to just make it a link that starts at the right time, but at about 1:20 on the lap timer (1:27 or so on youtube) you can hear the "dual blip"
About 1:20 on the lap timer (1:27 or so on youtube) you can hear the "dual blip"

I always skip gears downshifting. No reason not to.

I always go through the gears because it is what I am comfortable with. No other reason.

I usually go down 5 to 3 in hard braking on the track, if you do it at the right time it will feel normal

Great video. I watched the part with the dual blips. I was surprised they came so quickly after you started braking. I'd be nervous going from ~mid 5th gear into 3rd without giving more time to drop speed. I guess I need to force myself to try a quick double shift and also going strait from 5 to 3 and see what works best for me. Thanks.


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I can't take all the credit. My ECU does it, but I also do it. Basically as soon as I brake I blip it once and then shortly after. I never rely on it. I dont let the clutch out. I just want to keep the revs up since it's a long braking zone to go from 105 to 55 or so. Most braking zones are half that drop.

Because of the long braking zone, if I just clutch in the whole time, at the exit of the turn when I'm ready to let the clutch out, revs are all the way down at idle and I need to bring them all the way up to 4-5k. Two blips get it up higher/keep it up over a longer clutch-in time. IDK, maybe it's just my proficiency, but I had trouble getting the revs up from just about nothing all the way up to 4-5k at the end on a single blip- especially while I'm trying to trail off.

I don't skip gears. Let each synchro do it's share of the work.

Help me out. I don't understand what the work of one synchro has to do with the work of another.

When you are down shifting and you are going to end up in 3rd gear anyway, say at brake marker 1, why does it matter if you go from 5th to 3rd or 4th to 3rd? Either way, the 3rd gear synchro must still do the same work.

5->3 makes the 3rd gear synchro do much more work than 5 -> 4 -> 3, because the synchros bring the midshaft (input shaft) up to speed.

engine -> clutch -> midshaft -> synchro -> transmission (wheels)

going into 4 first, lets the 4th gear synchro do some of the work, and then going into 3rd next lets the 3rd gear synchro do the rest of the work.

Pretend you're driving an unsynchronized transmission, and have to double clutch, and it'll make way more sense. A 5->3 shift in this case requires a BIG blip, rather than two smaller blips of 5->4->3.

Bro.. 5-3 is fine, you just gotta love her the right way. :wub:

In all seriousness, with technique, I contend the gear skip is no more work on the synchro as you let the revs fall lower and if you double clutch then it’s no work on the synchro.

Edit.. for the avg person, who doesn’t take into account how a transmission works then one can expect extra work on the synchro as a result.

2nd edit: coming from my previous race car with a cable throttle and lighter flywheel, I find the FRS is easier to skip gears as a “big blip” is easier on a double clutch than a small one. This also is in part due to the mods on the pedals as well.

I had to expand further.. And this is just like, my opinion..man

When I'm threshold braking in a big brake zone - I want that to be the ONLY thing I'm doing AND doing well. Therefore I skip gears. The price of the synchro be damned - cost of racing and all.

As a smart person once said: "multi-tasking is another way of saying: doing multiple things at the same time, less well."

Pacific Raceways is a good example, since I skip gears twice. 5->3 at the end of the straight (turn 2) and immediately after that 4->2 into the hair pins (Turn 3a). You'll notice how loooooong I'm on the brake and how far the revs drop BEFORE I grab the shifter. I'm not using the shift lever to change gears early and braking with the clutch in.. nope. I'm IN gear while braking and only clutch in when it time to shift. This means the shift fork is NOT crossing a synchro at a high RPM.

Yes, there's a bigger rev match, but by waiting to change gears, I'm doing so at a much lower rev that puts much less strain on things vs changing the gear at a higher rpm.

Down in the hairpin, you'll also notice that my down shift is not hurried - why should it be, I'm still braking. It can be slower, deliberate, easy on the machinery without costing me a single iota of time. So I'm able focus ALL my attention on the threshold braking moment which is the most important moment (I'd argue) of the braking zone because if you screw that up, at best you miss your corner or lose some lap time, at worst you collect the car(s) in front of you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pjxiwHwRGz4

It takes very little effort to go into one more gate during a downshift; you don't have to let the clutch out in every gear.

I just do everything I can to help preserve the car. Many people get by just fine skip shifting!

I am reminded of my S2K ownership days where guys would destroy their 6th gear synchros because they would take off from a stop light or on-ramp, rev up to 9k in 2nd gear and then slap it in 6th gear (usually to avoid the attention of police) which was torture on the tiny 6th gear synchro.

Mike I want everyone following along to know something important - this is not a thing where there's a hard "right or wrong".

The part in bold is where choice matters. So while there is very little effort, there the extra time and motion to do this and it throws off my rhythm. Since the engine speed is slowed down and the shift is slow/deliberate, the difference between skipping and not is arguably indistinguishable. in 20 years of racing I've never opened a gear box to replace failing synchros. But you are correct.

We should also note the 4th gear synchro is just 1 piece. The 3rd gear synchro is a triple cone, much more robust.

Here's another thing.. We need to talk about our balls. :D

I'm talking about the 3 detent balls that hold our shift forks in their neutral positions. Our transmissions use (3) ball that ride inside, between the gear collar and the collar sleeve. Guess which gear is most at risk of ejecting it's balls? 4th gear. We all need to be careful not to beat our 4th gear too hard.

I discovered why when I was bored last winter and wanted to "refresh" my transmission - which was stupid because it was entirely unneeded (because I'm awesome and shift so awesomely that my 90k old, 4 race season synchros looked awesome)... But nonetheless, it was super fun to see what makes these things tick.

I narrated the photo to help explain why our 4th gear balls are at risk... You have to zoom in or look at original photo size.
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...5d4ab688_b.jpg