86 Engine Failure, typical reasons?
 

Thought Id ask the guys over the US on your experiences with engine failure.

Considering on getting one if my MOT on my spyder fails due to corrosion.

Ive been considering the following cars and i know ill probably wake up an ongoing age old argument. ND vs the 86.

Im really wanting the 86 given its less common than the mx5, but hearing about engine failures is putting me off as well the dull steering feel of the ND.

Is most of the engine failure attributed to the oil starvation whether or not its FIed?

I thought getting opinions here will help.

Its going to be my daily driver for the first 4/5 years, with the occasional spirited driving since their sports cars. after those 4/5 years ill be looking on taking them to track days. I plan on getting the car on finance so having a reliable platform will be essential. I dont plan on going FI, and at most will do the exhaust and header tune to fix the torque dip as well as get an oil cooler.

Im mostly worries that ill blow up the engine and then not be able to get a replacement given their prices, so on that basis im more likely to go with the ND and bite the bullet on the issues with the transmission, since the fix is more cheaper and it seems like its less likely a transmission failure to occur than an 86 engine failure.

IMHO, the most typical reason for engine failure for non-boosted engines on this car has historically been, and will continue to be:

The money shift.

I would be willing to bet that this single factor outweighs all the RTV issues as well all others combined. Factory defect rates on this car are in line with all modern car manufacturers, and forums tend to not be representative of overall market figures.

All of this ^ ^^^^ All day long THIS.
And...
Modifying beyond the design limits, be it FI, tuning, or or just messing with things that don't need to be messed with.
Of course then any failure is because the engine is crap and the company has no idea what they are doing.

I disagree. As someone who runs around with groups of other twin owners who track, autoX, do TT/TA. Never seen an FA blow from a money shift. I've done it twice, both times hard enough to spin the car.

I'd say it is poor maintenance.

I've not money shifted on this engine (yet and hope never) but I have cracked a piston once doing it on an STi. It does seem to be a common mishap that leads to failure.

I wouldn't be surprised with money shift being a top contributor, but I can never get over how many people beat on these cars, and don't maintain them as they should.

In short, I would not be surprised in the least if user error were #1 by a good margin. That is most common with ANY car on the market.

From reading this forum I would say the most common engine failure is from bringing it to the dealer to get a valve recall done.

I definitely don’t intend on going more than stock ideally. But at most would do the following mods I listed to improve the torque dip and prevent oil starvation issue.

I hear the standard service interval is questionable. Over here i think its 9k miles. I’ll definitely look for MY2015 and above but say if the services have been done but its been done accordingly to the manufacturers interval even though the actual interval thats optimal based on forum is around 4k, do you suggest that I still consider it?

I’ll definitely look at models on or after 2014 MY.

The interval is fine unless you are heavily tracking, live in the desert or regularly drive at -40 degrees.
There is zero reason to service more on a daily driven street car.

I dunno where you picked up 4k

Guys have tracked with E85 and done 7500mi intervals and UOA's came back fine. Just use decent oil that meets the requirements specified in the manual and you will be fine.

Any links to follow on this?

We start to see oil dilution after 2K miles, sometimes at just over 1K miles on big built turbo engines. That said, I've never run it on an FA24, but that is a LOT of miles on E85.

I'd have to find the UOA thread. There are a few big ones with lots of samples to go off off. I only run E85 on track as it's hard to get here, there are some that use it almost exclusively that have done UOA's.

i don't really know where the idea comes to mind that the service interval is questionable.

granted, i change my oil around 5k miles, but i readily admit that it's always been more for my peace of mind than any factual/mechanical reason.

i think getting a 2015+ model is a good idea, as it gets past the new platform teething issues that occurred, and takes advantage of some of the incremental improvements that were made. but by no means do i consider any '13-14 unreliable by itself. i would absolutely recommend a properly-serviced '13 over a non-serviced '18 with the same mileage/condition.

The amount of bearing related failures like rod knock on these is staggering, thats just how it is, not exactly helped by the recall thing. The later ones are much rarer but seems better built in most ways, they changed quite alot of small things over the years.

This is always an interesting debate about the older years having more issues. In WRX/STi circles this has been debated to death. In the end it's not the issues that have been resolved, but the fact that the newer cars have not seen the amount of time, miles, second-hand owners that are not applying the same amount of care/maintenance, as the older cars that have just been put through the ringer more. More interesting (or comical depending on how you look at it), if you look at different regions, you'll find different opinions on engine issues and weak points based on their experiences. Strange.

It's always an interesting debate with strong opinions. Some issues in the WRX/STi market have proven to be addressed (assumed for the better, with little-to-no data to back it up) and some have done side-by side assembly comparisons showing the changes and different part numbers. You can see it through the progression of EJ25 blocks stamped 701-706 now being the most recent and arguably, the most reliable and capable.

No idea if there has been that same progression on the FA20. Not one that I can remember from our research when were involved with the FA20 WRX from 2014-2017. The major thing I remember is the FA20 BRZ and WRX blocks were different, even though they are both FA20. Found this out the hard way when sleeving an FA20 BRZ block; the sleeve company gave us FA20 WRX specs for machining and install, assuming BRZ and WRX blocks were the same :(

I'll try to dig around when I have some downtime. I'm curious because the opinions are counter to our experiences on several platforms... but if it means fewer oil changes without compromising the quality and condition of the oil, I'm all for it!

Is it really staggering or is it just we only hear about those and not the vast majority that have lived uneventful lives? I think it's the latter personally.

Ahhh the internet is the very worst place to try and get accurate reliability numbers.
I have followed each and every failure reported on this forum since 2014. In fact I even had a spread sheet for a bit.
The number of catastrophic failures for all reasons is tiny compared to the sales numbers. This includes the recall debacle.
I gave up on the spread sheet a long time ago as there were so few it was a waste of time.
I would say that since 2014 there have been maybe, just maybe a maximum of 200 failures reported here. Now people will say "but Tcoat you are an idiot since 200 is a lot". Since the car was released there have been almost 100,000 of them sold (FRS/86/ BRZ combined) if the number of failures was truly "staggering" as people claim the should have been several thousand reported on here.
Even if we take the number to a pulled from the ass whopping 2,000 catastrophic failures we are still at the 2% mark. The real number is probably sub 1% though. This is on par with any other car out there and better than some.

Enthusiasts are the loudest minority. Most people dont really frequent forums, and even if they do people without issues dont even post about "nothing is wrong with my car woot!"

With that said most non design-flaw problems are due to mods and people pushing motors to deal with more than the stock specifications.
A side effect of this is that its weaknesses usually get found that the stock specifications wont really encounter

Out of curiosity, do you find DI cars have less dilution?

There is also an E85 thread that has quite a few UOA's on it IIRC.

From a sample of 1, mine is still running fine.
Even all the switches and levers still work.

I used to agree with this, but over the last 15 or so years of doing this, I've spoken to many service department managers and some Subaru Tech training center managers about this.

The big topic was always the EJ Oil Pickup failures, which is often catastrophic, and how common is it really? We obviously hear loudly on forums and social media from the enthusiasts. What we don't hear is about the non-enthusiasts car guys. The guy that loves driving these cars, but take it to the dealer for every inspection, oil change, tire rotation, blown parking light bulb, etc... Heck, as much as I want my kids to be 'enthusiasts' they fit into this category of loving the driving experience (going to Auto-X, rally, cruises, etc.) but want nothing to do with getting dirty. It makes no sense to me, but who am I to judge. I sometimes see these people at Auto-x and track events, and when they want to go faster or handle better, they go to a shop and get recommendations and have it installed. Still strange, right? lol Anyway, this 'other' group is not insignificant. Unfortunately, as much as I've asked, I can't get any data from any dealers in regard to how often a car has failure or issue X, Y, or Z. I get 'yeah we see that happen', but little else. Understandable considering what repercussions that could have. My point is, assuming is not reality.

MY assumption as that there is even a bigger demographic that fits neither of these. They enjoy the cars, but not beyond their 'normal' lives and routines. Go to independent shops for service and Jiffy Lube for oil changes. I know, cringe worthy, but maybe true?


No, but I'm assuming all DI setups are not the same aside from the premise of operation. The 911 and AMG guys are pretty fanatical about E85 oil changes, and I've seen UOAs that support that. Also, easy to search out if you dig through the forums. We definitely saw fuel dilution on our shop mule 911 on E85, but we didn't run it often enough to where I saw conclusive data, and it was used primarily for product testing on the dyno. I follow some RS3 groups, and I know E85 is popular there too, but I've not followed closely enough.

Fuel dilution is not just due to the fuel type, but the A/F mixture, ring pack, piston material, PCV design (those other cars have an AOS from the factory), piston-to-wall clearance, etc. so there is certainly opportunity for some engines to be less prone to dilution than others, which is why I'm keeping an open mind about it.

I would love to buy you a coffee and talk cars for a few hours.

ND’s blow up transmissions with pretty low miles, not sure if there’s a fix.

FA20’s seem to have engine oiling issues, oil cooler, pickup upgrade and baffling help.

Pick you poison. Personally I’d take the Miata if I could live with its lack of practicality, but I can’t so 86 it is for the time being.

I think there's also a bit of a culture gap between Europe and America, in the way that Americans hold their cars to a much higher reliability standard than us, but are willing to spend a lot more on maintenance than us.

Tell a European consumer he needs to change his oil every 9k and he'll tell you that's far too often and he can't be bothered. Tell the same to an American driver and he'll be scared for his engine.

Then again, I think those cars can be called reliable by either standard.

Random catastrophic engine failures seem few and far between. Most don't seem that random at all and involve some type of repeated engine abuse or bad maintenance. Not sure about the money shifting part though, you'd really have to try to misshift an 86 it into second, as the synchros would likely want to have a word with you first.

There's a few nibbles about these car's reliability, but if those are enough to scare a fella off, he / she should stick to bicycles :D

+1

I've only known two people IRL that have killed an engine in any road-going car, and both cars were Nissans.

My brother didn't know he had to change the oil in his 3 years of Altima ownership, until it died.
My father forgot to change the oil in his Pathfinder for like 2 years, then it died.

Yes, I am related to these people... :cry:

Moral of the story, my experience says you are very likely to kill the engine by not changing the oil, or driving a Nissan. Otherwise it is probably fine.

I feel your pain. I'd say I'm more wrenching than driving, and wouldn't argue being labeled a fanatic when it comes to mechanical sympathy.

That being said, I don't look forward to breaking it, but I sure enjoy the satisfaction of a job well done.

I was thinking I know three people who killed 86 engines:
-one died after 30+ laps at Spa on a hot day, without an oil cooler
-one was supercharged and putting out in excess of 400hp
-the last had its oil filter pop off the oil cooler sandwich plate. By the time the oil pressure light came on, it was -as expected- too late

So: heavy track use without supporting mods, heavy modding and bad modding.

Thanks for the info on this everyone. I’ll definitely consider the 86. I think its now down to a test drive.

I mean seeing the drift king having the 86 also kind of made em consider it too although its logically stupid in an cost kind of perspective. But when your an enthusiast, that means fuck all lol.

I’ll definitely will baby the car whichever I end up getting.

I'm surprised at the comment about ND steering. The thing I like least about my 86 is the steering, which I don't care much for. I put 200,000 miles on a pair of Miatas,one a 94 NA and the other in 05 NB Mazdaspeed turbo with all the Flyin' Miata mods. The steering was fantastic on both. You could feel every grain of sand in the road. I think I've only briefly driven 2 NDs, but I don't recall the steering being subpar.


As for reliability, I have a 2014 Monogram edition. The extras make a big difference, or I would prefer a later model. I bought mine with 27,000 miles on it and it now has 60,000. Changed the spark plugs a short time ago and they didn't need it. Have been running E 85 for about the last 20,000 miles. Change oil at 5000 miles and Blackstone tells me it's perfect. However I got careless the last time and went about 7500 miles and had a slightly high aluminum reading. I'll keep changes at 5 thousand max from now on. I've run 0W30 or 5W30 Mobil One ever since I've had the car.


I also have a Phantom electric supercharger, and have the warning light set at 6K. It's winding so fast at that point I have to get off it quickly to keep from going much higher. Seems to me that's a way to avoid a lot of stress on that engine. With any upshift at that RPM, I'm still well into the ESC boost.

From my reading most people (on forums and in professional reviews) find the Twins' steering to be great, often touted as one of the best EPS units for any price range. I find that there is a similar (although somewhat less strong) consensus that the ND steering is pretty numb. I agree with these assessments for both cars (own a BRZ and driven an ND2).
However, there are people that find the ND steering good (and comparable to NA/NB steering, just read some ND steering discussions on miata.net) and people that find the Twins steering to be poor. I guess it's a matter of personal preference and what you are looking for in steering feel.