'22+ GR86 vs GR Supra 3.0 Manual vs 2JZGTE swapped SC300 Manual
 

Hello!

I'm a long time lurker and reader and haven't posted much on this forum but since I'm at the point where I will start considering a new daily vehicle and since what I am coming from is so unique I wanted to ask for feedback from GR86 owners as to what they thought.

I am trying to determine if leaning more into a '22+ GR86 Manual or '23+ GR Supra 3.0 Manual will be a better fit for me.

I am also very happy that Toyota released the GR Corolla. It's fantastic! But.... as excellent a performance car as it is, one thing it is not is a beautiful two door coupe. And I really love two door coupes with a lower seating position and can manage that in a new daily car so I'm really just focused between the GR86 6MT and Supra 6MT... despite their price gap.

The Supra 3.0 Manual I consider totally unnecessary to modify. The package as is, for me, is complete. It has plenty of power from a turbo I6, gets 27mpg or so highway, has four piston front brake calipers, a standard LSD and handles very well. It's only downside is that it's a 2-seater only.

The GR86 Manual is also IMO near perfect. Great handling, improved power and torque, 0-60 slightly below 6 seconds (correct?) and it has a standard Torsen T-2 LSD. It also is a more usable 2+2 with a decent size trunk. I drove a Scion FR-S when those first came out and remarked at how the design was like my old 5th gen Prelude but with the FWD issue being totally corrected... and that older Honda was an *excellent* and very fun to drive daily car in its own right. The FR-S/GT86/BRZ cars were, to me, the evolution of it plus correcting the drive layout.

The GR86 also retains a true manual handbrake which I really love in this era. A manual car should retain a mechanical manual handbrake.

But if I were to buy a GR86 I'd immediately want to correct the problem of it not having the 1st gen BR Performance Pack Brembo brake option by acquiring all the factory parts and installing that system. For me I will not budge on that... and of course I fear this would be a warranty voiding modification no matter how cleanly I were to do it but I am not interested in going back to sliding front brake calipers.

.....

Now I included the SC300 in my thread title because one of those has been my current daily driver. And I am keeping it but it is coming time to soon get a new primary car.

Where I am torn between a GR86 and GR Supra (both manual, both having 4-piston front brakes) is that neither directly replaces my SC300 as I have built it:

It is a big 3600lb (as is right now) 2+2 90's long wheelbase luxury coupe, inline six RWD and mine is a factory 5-speed manual example.

I bought it stock and drove it with the standard naturally aspirated 225hp for ten years.

Then after all that time it needed an engine rebuild and decided to I give it the following in a VERY meticulous "OEM+" treatment at great effort over several stages up to the present:

-2JZ-GTE Non-VVT-i engine swap. Standard boost at 320hp/315ft-lbs in sequential turbo mode (which has been fine with me). Everything was reconditioned from a bare block on up and hand built to all OEM Toyota specs (plus ARP studs and bolts) with as many new parts, electrical, hoses, bolts and other components as was possible. It has the factory US-spec CT12B twin turbo system, fully rebuilt and running all new VSVs, stock 6-speed ECU, OEM Toyota pistons, full EGR system with OEM cats, OEM Supra TT fuel system, as close to OEM Supra TT electrical wiring as could be done, etc. etc. It took time to build that engine as a labor of love.

The rest of the car has been fitted with the following:

-R154 5-speed transmission, rebuilt and upgraded with stronger internals
-SupraSport V3 short shifter (similar to older C's short shifters for the Soarer)
-Supra MKIV TT Auto rear differential w/T-1 Torsen LSD and 3.769:1 final drive
-Supra MKIV Front bucket seats, reupholstered to match the SC tan interior
-MR2 Spyder three spoke sport steering wheel swapped w/Lexus IS300 airbag
-Supra MKIV TT front and rear swaybars & MKIV rear subframe mounts
-Supra application Bilstein AK1242 & AK1243 shocks in "Gixxer-Drew" config w/ Hypercoil linear rate springs
-Supra MKIV TT OEM wheels 17x8 FR & 17x9.5 RR on 245's and 275's
-Entire Supra MKIV TT cooling system (primary and auxiliary) installed like "stock"
-HID 4200K Philips low beam illumination upgrade
-OS Giken twin disc STR2CD clutch kit (very easy to daily once broken in)
-1997-2000 SC300/400 front bumper swap w/foglights.

That gives an idea of how different the car is from a standard SC300 or even a very powerful turbocharged example. Mine was built carefully to always maintain an "OEM+" style appearance.

It is still fundamentally a big GT Lexus coupe with the utility of a very decent size back seat and decent enough but not huge trunk compartment. I have been able to haul a LOT of cargo in this car over the years, use it for work with gear bags in the back or trunk, etc.

There is just something very very useful about a 2+2 coupe.

I did the same thing with my smaller Honda Prelude which of course was also a 2+2 having a decent enough back seat for occasional passenger use and a decent size trunk space.

Power-wise my SC is a quick car. I didn't set it up to be fast by today's standards but it has plenty of torque and power delivered in a very satisfying 1990's turbo fashion... but it can still be driven like the luxury GT coupe that it is. It still feels like a Lexus but it's a very factory everyday muscle car style Lexus.

Braking is not a true track duty setup but the Supra TT brake calipers and rotors are more than anyone would really need on the street in a 3600lb RWD muscle car.

Handling wise it is FAR better than it was stock and very capable (the suspension work, staggered wheels and tires and Torsen LSD all help) but it is still a long wheelbase 90's era coupe. The GR86 and GR Supra both have a major handling advantage.

Suffice it to say that it's just a certain kind of car. It was never optioned the way I have mine set up from the factory but other than what it is as a design of its era I have no complaints about it other than that it's seriously getting into classic car status now... and has pretty bad gas mileage by today's standards (which you have to accept and expect). 15mpg city and 23mpg highway.

Infiniti doesn't really make anything like this any longer... since they killed off their manual transmission option in their coupe.

There are the Ford Mustang and Camaro and Challenger which are all kind of this class of car in a non-luxury sense and which all still offer manual transmissions... but I am not interested in any of those.

I really love the options that Toyota has presented us with through their GR division.

....

And so there are my thoughts and questions to you all.

I'm not moving on this immediately but I have narrowed down to the GR86 Manual (with a swap of the BRZ Performance Pack Brembo brake parts-- hopefully not warranty voiding) and the GR Supra 3.0 Manual (which I personally see no need to modify).

Both cars embody aspects of what I will be moving on from in my modified SC300 but neither one has all the eggs in one basket.

I will use whichever car I choose as a daily driver and the cargo room and all. I rarely ever have more than one passenger in my SC300 but I have occasionally and appreciate it as extra cargo room at least but where I am at in life right now I can also manage with no back seat area.

Does anyone else have a gauge on where I am coming from as I look at these two new car options versus a much older style of coupe that... really isn't offered any longer?

The SC300 as modified, and though quite old, is a fantastic car. It can be driven in a docile manner or easily shove out of its own way and that of others when the boost comes on. The 5-speed transmission is an older design from the 1980's but it's in great shape and feels great as an example of its era. But at about 30 years old I will soon need to move this car into secondary classic car status.

The GR86 Manual and GR Supra 3.0 Manual are both phenomenal cars. I know much about both already. I know that I really CAN'T go wrong with either one.

This decision is not easy. My SC300 is the first turbo car I've owned and I love the experience. It is nowhere near as fast as a GR Supra but it's very fun. I would never need to modify a GR Supra for more power to satisfy me. The GR86 is a quick car with the new 2.4L engine with excellent feel and I am not interested in modifying its engine either for long term reliability.

Having driven a 1st Gen FR-S Auto and also a 1st gen GT86 6-speed manual I loved both of those cars. They could have used more power, yes, but they are so light at 2800lbs or so compared to my 3600lb SC300 (which needed the turbo power to overcome its own weight especially at high altitude in mountain/canyon drives).

The driving experience is #1 to me. Hence my preference for front engine RWD and for a manual transmission.

That is also a reason why even though I built a 2JZ-GTE engine for my SC I was perfectly fine with its stock power output.... as compared to the original 225hp/210ft-lb NA engine which was torquey but also only made its merely adequate full power up into 6000rpm.... in a vehicle that at the time had a stock weight of 3500lbs. With ALL the other modifications to it but while still using the factory stock naturally aspirated driveline I kind of thought of it as a much bigger long wheelbase GT86.... which obviously didn't have the GT86's inherent advantages as a handling and balance machine.

...

I realize that this is a very, very, very specific comparison and set of preferences.

Between the GR86 6MT (and BRZ Brembo brakes being added immediately) and a bone stock Supra 3.0 Manual... will I feel too compromised by either car?

I would humbly appreciate any of your thoughts and insights!

Thank you!

Tough one here. Much of this will of course purely depend on you and your wants/needs.

A few key points I picked out from reading:
1. You seemed to like the luxury feel of your Lexus chassis with its big power. This would lean you towards the Supra in both aspects. The 86 will not be as quick as the Supra or your Lexus and you might miss that. The Supra has more luxury to it and drives more like it too. This is something you'll need to compare for yourself to get a better idea of your preference.

2. You like the extra room to haul stuff. But you have to ask yourself what you need your two rear seats for. You won't be fitting people in there much if at all. Mostly kids, if there is even a need for you in that regard. The Supra has much larger trunk capacity due to the different design and also having no rear seats. So this could lean you either way.

3. Sounds like you love OEM or OEM+. Supra would require you to change nothing, as you say. 86 would put you at work. Possibly for more than just big brake upgrades over time. The quality of the Supra is just better overall, hence the price tag. But you do seem to like modifying. So do you still have an itch for it? Would the 86 satisfy you more in that regard as you can throw some upgrades on it to make it more preferable to you?

In general, the Supra will be the better car in most ways compared to the 86, hence the price tag as mentioned earlier. Is price something that you even care about in the slightest? The 86 will be cheaper to buy, have cheaper parts, and be cheaper to maintain for the most part.

Lastly, as everyone always says, there's nothing better than going to test drive each vehicle. Might be quite a bit harder to do these days. But even if you have a chance to test an automatic with either, it may be worth it to compare all the other aspects of the cars aside from the transmission.

How do you feel about Lexus LCs?

Buy 2 gr86s… keep one Jay Leno style stuffed away and run the hell out of the other one.

You put all that money in the sc there is no reason to get rid of it; you will lose your sentimental value, time and money. It comes down to budget.

Go drive them both… then come back. Theoretical is pointless there is enough reviews out there to watch for days. If people want advice then there should be a precursor to just drive one if applicable and that solves any over-analyzation of inner monologue cyclical rhetoric.

So the real question is 30,000$ worth another 1.5ish 0-60 mph and a bmw power train?

Hell you could buy a gr86 for daily, keep sc and buy a 5-10k car to rack the miles on.

The whole reason I bought my brz was (this ideology is most people’s) because I couldn’t justify affording a 50k+ new sports car or a 30-40k used 20-50k miles 5-10 years old sports car nor have 20-30k to put in a down payment or want a 500+ a month car payment on a depreciating investment nor do I want a car that I pedestal to the point I don’t want to drive it and put 5,000 miles a year on. The brz ticked the boxes for me.

I speed read through your response I’m sure I made assumptions.

Same here. I couldn't justify an SS 1LE, Mach 1, or Supra. Especially because I work from home and drive very little.

I got my car Sept 3rd, I still haven't cracked 1100 miles on it.

Have you thought about how you plan to navigate the market, how you're actually going to get one?

If budget is not an issue, I see no reason to go with the GR86. The more powerful Supra, with better build/comfort, will make a better and more fun daily driver (IMO), since that seems to be your primary use case.

The GR86 is awesome DD in its own right, but it is ~$30k cheaper for a reason (several actually).

If you were going to do a lot of tracking/autox/etc, and budget was a concern, I would recommend the GR86. Consumables and parts are significantly cheaper (as is the car obv) compared to the Supra.

Personally, I'm like @vindiesel and like "cheap" sporty cars with low operating costs, since I track and autox mine very often. That said, I'm still considering a Supra at some point :D

I agree with others. Supra manual can replace both if no budget is a concern. GR86 can feel premium in the higher trim. With a tune and e85 it should prove to plenty quick. If it was my money I would go GR86 and a few tasteful mods. Supra is set out of box but has tons of potential

Supra 3.0L Manual. Have fun!

Drive both and see. That is honestly the best and only thing you need to do to know. Toro both cars for a day. It'll save you thousands in regret.

If money isn't an issue then get the Supra. It is better in every way for a daily except maybe cargo space and small child seats. The 86 is lighter and is probably the better driver's car, but not a better daily. Get the Supra with the adaptive suspension, far more power, more/easier power potential, quieter, better build quality, more features, etc that will all be much more appreciated for a daily and will be far more similar to your SC300 (I had two MKIVs including a 2JZGTE swapped NA). Personally, the size and weight of the 86 is more me. A GR86 with a Harrop SC, E85, a header n catback is a great thing. You probably don't need the brakes for the canyons--just some pads.

Reading your post, I feel like you might miss the practicality of the 2+2+cargo layout of the 86.

Others have already mentioned the various cost/performance comparisons. You can do a lot of work on the 86 and still be into it for less than the Supra, and the savings can go towards consumables. Most reviews also state that the brakes are still more than acceptable for most all situations. I know I've done track days - multiple twenty minute sessions - in my first year FRS with nothing more than a fluid and pad change, and the new car is supposed to be way better than that stock (so you probably shouldn't sweat the brakes right out of the gate).

You've been driving the SC, which was the "gentleman's Supra" for a while now. I suppose what you really need to decide is whether on those rare occasions that you need the space, are you ok with using the SC there also? Aside from my frustration with having farmed it out to BMW, my second biggest annoyance was that they made the Supra a two-seater. I've been dailying my FRS for over ten years now and it takes whatever I throw at. I've done multiple, 10+ hour a day road trips. I've put the seat down to load lumber after a trip to the hardware store. I've actually loaded four track wheels, my jack, tools and overnight bag for track days. It just does it all and I have fun driving it every day.

The appearance of Lexus cars is very beautiful. I especially like the ES300：竖起大拇指：

Your idea is very second, and I agree with you very much：肚皮卷：

The handling of the car should be very good. How many men's dreams are this

I have a first gen car and had a bit of track time with the A90 Supra. For my personal use, I like the 86 better, as it is:
-far cheaper to run (purchase price, insurance, tire budget, fuel, etc.)
-just as much fun from a chassis standpoint
-admittedly slower, but the Supra's extra power isn't really usable on the street
-much more practical for hauling home improvement stuff, a bike, a tent and camping gear, extra wheels / tires, or a baby seat (all of which I've done in my 86)
-a bit more spacious at the front

With that said, it's two cylinders short and doesn't have the Supra's higher-end interior.

A few other considerations:
-can you get an A91 6MT at MSRP? Or at all?
-with how much mods you've done on your SC, it seems like you have a bad case of the car bug. I don't think you'd leave your Supra stock.
-an A91 6MT might be a good long term "investment" as I don't think it'll depreciate too much

I have/had a similar garage as you are considering to have, OP.
Have a heavy-ish 1JZ-VVTi/R154 swapped MK3 Supra, stock power right now so 276hp/280tq.
Have a '16 FR-S also.

I had a '20 Supra for about 2 1/2 years. I would have kept it but among other, let's say "reasons", I ultimately decided to sell it knowing the manual Supra and GR Corolla were coming in '23 model year, plus the GR 86 was going to have a special edition. Couldn't get the GR Corolla, so the choice was another Supra but manual, and the new 86. I decided to just get a base 86 and don't regret it, even though I have 1st and 2nd gen now.

2nd is better in most ways, and you wouldn't be disappointed coming from your experience driving the 1st gen.

For daily, tbh the Supra was surprisingly good. Maybe having a modified FR-S with all sorts of noises and special needs like e85 made me prefer driving the Supra, but it was real comfortable to just get in and go. Gets a lot of attention though even the black color I had, can't imagine if it was red or yellow. But I've revved it in sport mode at many parking lots at request of others.
Space-wise though, it's fine for a couple and maybe 1 dog. Yes the Supra has a larger opening due to being a hatch, but the trunk is akwardly shaped. Practically speaking, a seat-down 86 will haul much more any day of the week.
In my FR-S, at different times I've hauled 8ft 4x4 posts & 6 ft fence panels, 4 wheels and 4 tires separated, a 55" TV, 3 dogs, and with the front seat removed a 29 gal Air compressor, and a bottom 27" tool box.

Now that I don't have the '20 Supra, when I have a need for the gas pedal to actually listen to me, I drive the MK3.
No but seriously, the driving experience of the 86, 1st or 2nd gen is great, maybe better than both Supras. Haven't really tracked the 2nd gen yet or taken it on any good roads, only have about 600 miles on it, but I have about ~100K miles on my FR-S. Maybe it's just my skill level showing here, because I never really pushed the Supra as hard as the FR-S on curvy back roads and definitely not in the canyons, always felt it had too much and could quickly escalate into me at the bottom of the mountain. Whereas for being both a daily and "having my sports car on the road trip", the FR-S/86 is perfect to me. Enough space for 2 w/luggage, comfortable enough for the journey, put the seats all the way back to sleep at the rest stop(unlike the Supra due to the bar), and still have a car you can go all out on the fun roads.


By the way, read up on some topics here, you won't be "voiding" the warranty simply by getting a brake kit.

I want to thank everyone for their responses to this thread! Everyone's contrasting opinions and quite specific recommendations have been enormously helpful to me in making a decision!

My apologies for taking so long to reply. I had a surgery to get through and heal from over the last month and as you can imagine that slowed me down for a bit and prevented me from catching up.

I would like all of your responses if I could but there seems to be some limitation with my account that doesn't allow for that yet.

...

After considering everyone's responses and doing even more research and finding a couple of GR86's to scrutinize in person and considering what I really needed and wanted in a fun daily I put down a waitlist deposit for a 2023 GR86 Premium 6MT. I'm good with the white, black, light and dark gray colors so hopefully that will increase my odds.

And yes, I did do a HUGE amount of research on dealers combing threads and Google doc files for GR Corolla, GR Supra and GR86 buyers of markup and non-markup dealers to compile my own list of dealers to approach to do an MSRP sale or very close to it. I am in Florida so there really weren't many to choose from in that regard.

I am in no immediate hurry to get the car so waiting for a while is doable for me.

....

With the GR Supra... the price is certainly a stretch to get into... but besides the much higher price over the GR86 and its excellent engine and transmission what ultimately made me pull away from it was a few things:

First, I do already have a Supra-ish turbo car at this point in my SC. It's getting to be an impractical-for-daily-duty classic now but it can be enjoyed any time.

And second, it is really a new daily practical all around use car that I am looking for... but which is still a true driver's car that is always fun. The Supra is gorgeous and has tremendous performance.... but it's a two-seater and even with that hatchback storage area many of you mentioned how oddly shaped it is. I agree about that and I've been all over the interior of one front to back before.

It's just not enough room laid out in a practical way for my purposes.

The GR86 looks very beautiful to me as well however.

I spent a good 30min at one dealer inside a GR86 trying everything out from front to rear, the back seat, the fold down function, the trunk, etc.

While it is definitely compact inside the GR86 I still found the interior room to be more usable overall.

The back seat area in my Lexus SC300 is much more generous in both head room and leg room for rear passengers. You can seat four people comfortably in the SC for reasonable out of town drives.

The back seat area in the GR86 is really only good to seat one extra person on the passenger side (I'm 5' 8") but it is doable with just acceptable legroom. That is good enough for me since usually I do not have more than one extra passenger in my car anyway.

At least one full size suitcase will fit in the trunk with some extra room available even with the tighter opening.

The fold down rear seats actually gives more usable trunk space over my SC (which has an upright gas tank between the rear seats and trunk liner).

.....

And as far as the power difference between my SC and the GR86... I feel that evens out as well.

The turbo'd SC and GR86 are very different cars with two very different expressions of power. One wasn't even turbocharged to begin with but even with the mild stock turbo engine I think it's only as fast as the stock GR86 is.

Since my SC300 weighs about 3600lbs in current trim (+200lbs more than an MKIV TT) and is set up for stock sequential boost pressure only this recent video comparing a stock GR86 6MT and a 99% stock Supra MKIV TT 6MT is very telling as to how far along overall technology has come in 30 years.

My SC has been deliberately built to be a 100% California BAR emissions compliant car and so keeping its new engine unmodified has been part and parcel of one of my goals with it.

Yes, you can easily modify the Supra MKIV's engine to blow the GR86 away but it is impressive nonetheless for the GR86:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=52lxhZgFrG8

...

And there is one more important factor:

Which car just... speaks to me more?

The GR86 does that for me. It is very simple and very focused yet in my opinion still very practical as an everyday car that is the total opposite of boring to drive.

It just seems like the most fun option and something that I wouldn't worry about so much in any situation.

A do-anything small sportscar that has all the traditional controls and interior and exterior layout that I really like when I'm honest with myself.

I sat in the GR86 interior and I just LOVED being in there. It felt right to me. I think that feeling is more important than all other factors. This is not a car I would get rid of in a couple of years. It's something I want to be driving for a long time.

....

I am keeping my SC300 of course but it's definitely going to become the secondary use classic car now. It'll also reduce overall wear and tear on it from now on.

I'm pretty much done with the modifications I wanted to do to it all along from the day I bought it and now all I really want is to finish up its remaining cosmetic restoration.

....

Someone mentioned that I have the "modification bug" since I did so much to my SC300.

Well... yes and no.

The SC300 is a great chassis with great potential but is like a fun and racy but floaty Buick with a short geared manual transmission and woefully undersized brakes in stock form.

Mind you that given the kind of big coupe that it is I really liked the giggle-worthy contradictions in its stock chassis tune when I bought it.

I knew from the moment I had it home what my long term list of parts and modifications for it would be to improve it and bring it up to the standard that I wanted from it to begin with. I bought a used vehicle which I planned from the get-go to modify exactly as I eventually did.

Still, I haven't owned a car to date that I didn't feel needed a few changes and adjustments from 100% factory stock. There is almost always something.

...

By contrast the 2000 Honda Prelude Type SH I used to own from new only saw a very few modifications in the decade that I owned it:

--Switched to Hawk HPS brake pads with Brembo blank OEM spec rotors
--Suspension Techniques front and rear sway bars
--Koni Yellow shocks w/Ground Control coilovers on stiffer H&R liner rate springs
--Various superior summer tires in the stock diameter over the atrociously horrible stock Bridgestone Potenza RE92 all-seasons
--ACT aftermarket clutch
--RS*R exhaust

The sliding caliper brakes on that car would warp the rotors frequently and so a swap to early NSX two piston calipers with larger rotors was planned but I never got around to it.

That car I wish had more horsepower and torque but overall it did not need a whole lot done to it to set it up well.

Granted however... it had far less aftermarket parts specifically developed for it than any of the FR-S/86/BRZ models have over the years.

....

The while a GR Supra really doesn't seem to need much at all done to it out of the box the GR86 is still very close to being just as dialed in as it needs to be off the showroom floor (in my opinion).

Nonetheless after doing plenty of thinking and research on it I am planning to do the following to mine once I've signed the papers and have the keys:

Major:
--Widen the tires to 225/40-18. I'd like to go with staggered wheels but sizing vs clearance/rubbing is difficult.
--Full 2017-2020 BRZ Brembo braking system conversion (with Hawk HPS pads and Centric or DBA rotors)
--Spacers in a very modest thickness +3mm or less if needed for the Brembos
--2017-2021 BRZ/GT86 4.30:1 final drive
--Billetworkz short shifter
--Throttle controller (possibly depending on how it feels stock)

Minor:
--Stronger aftermarket clutch pilot bearing whenever a clutch job becomes necessary
--Switch to 5W-30 synthetic engine oil with change intervals 1/2 that of what the factory manual's "severe" schedule calls for
--Aftermarket oil drain plug which has a magnet built in at the tip
--Switch to Redline MT-90 manual transmission oil (I run the same in my SC)
--Disable the fake engine noise generator (Techstream or just unplug the unit)
--Eightyzips aftermarket knee pad assembly for the driver's side
--OLM Carbon hood struts or other brand aftermarket gas charged hood strut kit


And then basic things like some Llumar window tint, door edge guards and probably some PPF on the front and usual areas where dings and chips are most likely to occur.

Overall these are still far fewer and less severe modifications overall than my 30 year old SC received.

And the 4.30:1 final drive is not unfamiliar to me. I used to run my SC300 5-speed (with the original W58 and with the 100lb lighter stock NA engine) against a 4.27:1 final drive with the LSD for several years before it got the engine swap. It was quite a fun setup which I liked a lot.

The longer gearing (3.77:1) with turbocharging suits it much better in the long run given its size and weight however for the 2800+lb shorter wheelbase GR86 I think going back to the earlier 4.30:1 final drive ratio would be just fine.

.....

With all that being said I am in line and playing the waiting game for an allocation to come up at the dealer I'm working with. It'll be a few months at least but I feel I made the right choice.

All of you helped me come to my decision with your input, thank you!

I appreciate you all taking into account where I was coming from in all of this!

I am looking forward to soon being an owner of one of these awesome sportscars! :)

Answering individual posts:
 

1.) The main reason I picked up an SC300 many years back was because I like the Toyota Soarer JZZ30 1JZ-GTE 5-speed manual models and this was the closest you could get to having the starting point of one in left hand drive USDM form. Secondary to that was the charm of it being a 90's high end Toyota marketed as a Lexus luxury vehicle.

It is a luxury car technically but with the Supra MKIV bucket seats and MR2 steering wheel I have in mine among many other changes it's much more of a driver's car with a lean towards muscle car than it is traditional luxury car at this point. It has a leather interior but it's not the same kind of "luxury" we expect in today's new luxury cars.

It has, as most SC's do, a sunroof. I'd have much preferred a factory non-sunroof car but they are very rare to find.

The GR86 and GR Supra both win for me in this regard-- no sunroof option at all!

My Lexus certainly has great power with the GTE engine swap but the way I have it set up as a 100% CA BAR Emissions compliant vehicle at stock boost only it is not THAT fast. Not compared to a GR Supra certainly and even a GR86 gives it a run for its money I think.

Could I change that by turning up the boost setting? Sure. I even have a vintage boost controller set aside for it if I ever want to. But big power wasn't my goal for my Lexus SC. So power-wise I don't feel the GR86 will be deficient for my needs and sense of fun. Several years back I had fun with my SC modified as it is now but with its stock non-turbo engine and a 4.27:1 final drive ratio. It was much slower than the GR86 in that state of tune but it was always fun to drive.

2.) Having extensively sampled the interiors of the GR Supra and GR86 now I came to the decision that real world practical use would best be suited for me with the GR86's back seats and trunk space. Everything is smaller inside than it is in my SC but it is still more usable IMO than the GR Supra's interior and it can fit at least one more person in the back seat area if needed.

3.) The GR Supra is absolutely a better built car overall. No question. The price tag does reflect that. And yes, I do like "OEM+" upgrades in general. I know what few changes to the GR86 that I want right off the bat but they aren't many. I haven't owned a single car yet that I haven't wanted at least a couple of changes or additions to in deviation from 100% stock.

The GR86 ultimately stood out as the car that most spoke to me. So I'll give it the couple of things I wish it had as standard equipment or as original factory options. It's not that much to do, really.

I agree with you that test drives would be the most ideal thing. Unfortunately in my area there just aren't any good options to test drive these cars.

But that said I have driven two different previous generation cars and I liked those already. After sampling the GR86 and GR Supra interiors extensively by myself and without any pressure I came to the same conclusion that I just liked the overall layout and design of the GR86 interior more... even though it is made of lower cost materials than the GR Supra's interior.



I think the Lexus LC500 and LC500h are beautiful cars! They are currently the true successor to what the old SC400 and UZZ30 Soarer V8's used to be... only with far more potent engines.

However they are also well out of my price range. They're also extremely heavy and, being more like SC400 successors, only come with automatic transmissions.

What the LC500/500h are *not* are true successors to the Lexus SC300 5-speed manual and JZZ30 Toyota Soarer 1JZ-GTE 5-speed manual vehicles.

It is an odd thing to say because the SC400, SC300, Soarer V8 and Soarer turbo manual JZZ30 all share the same chassis.

But that was 1990's Toyota/Lexus. Today's Lexus decided to focus their Soarer/SC-successor squarely on its V8 automatic grand tourer roots. And this is fine and they did an amazing job!

But the other polar opposite version of the V8 SC/Soarer was the tail-happy turbocharged JZ powered manual LSD equipped sports version with a cloth interior, no sunroof and few luxury options.

Lexus and Toyota haven't made any true successor to the Soarer JZZ30 formula yet.

And again... a Lexus LC is well out of my affordability anyway. But even if it was within my means... gorgeous as it is it is too much of a luxury car that weighs far too much for my tastes and which has no manual transmission option.

Maybe Lexus will do another SC/Soarer again in the future akin to what the Z30 is like. Who knows? It doesn't seem to be their interest now.



^^ I agree with you and I have decided to keep my SC300. I started out as a practical used car that I really liked just to buy something quickly at the time but it has grown into a vehicle that I have put a lot of time and effort into and which I really don't want to let go of. It's a time capsule with all the "close-to-OEM" options I wished it had from the factory. It is a special car to me and always makes me smile when I drive it.

I also agree that the GR86 is a much easier to live with and more practical everyday car than the GR Supra is. The Supra is definitely a stretch for me but the GR86 is not.

And to my surprise I actually prefer the GR86 more as an everyday vehicle. It may not be everyone's definition of what that means to them but for me the GR86 fits that bill perfectly. I wouldn't worry about using it all the time for anything I needed to.


Yes I have. For the last three months I was researching every thread and Google Docs form that I could in order to build myself an accurate list of dealers who would work out a sale reasonably at or as close to MSRP as possible and which I would put down one or more deposits with.

I knew that you can't just buy one of these cars immediately unless you get uncommonly lucky (unlikely) or are willing to pay a horrendous markup (far more likely).

So I found a good dealer and put down a deposit for the specs I wanted. Now it will be a waiting game and checking frequently. And I am also likely going to expand to 1-2 more dealers that are decent.

Being in Florida the odds are not very good however. I am open to buying out of state and I might very well do that.


Good points! I think for me it is both the overall fun factor of the GR86, its traditionally 90's/00's style interior layout and greater everyday practicality that wins me over. Being much more affordable than a GR Supra is certainly a big plus as well.

The GR86 just feels great to be inside of. Yes it's a much cheaper car in both price and materials but it's also a practical yet true driver's car that I wouldn't worry about so much using in all manner of situations.

That being said I do plan to take good care of it, protect its paint, etc. and treat it well.

Autocross or tracking I would love to do with it if time permits me and as you say its low running costs don't make it cost an arm and a leg to do trackdays with.


I won't be going with any E85 tune. The engine tune will stay stock.

The GR Supra has loads of potential for more power yes. But the GR86 I can see myself driving and using every day for whatever I need to and have tons of fun doing so.

That's what my decision came down to: how would I be using the car the majority of the time while having fun doing pretty much anything in it.

I am going with the slightly more practical car with less power but no lack of fun factor at all.


I agree with you that as to being an overall effortless driving machine of greater quality the Supra wins no question.

But I do not see it as being nearly as practical as the cheaper and less powerful but very fun GR86. The practical aspects of the GR86 won me over. I love the GR Supra but right now I'd be much happier with the GR86 which does all of the practical things I need it to while also being a very unique compact driving machine.

I won't be doing boost or E85 fuel modifications. The stock engine output will be what I will stick with in this case. It's already got a much better power to weight ratio than my SC300 had when it was 100% stock NA.

It's not a luxury car, no but that's okay. It seems closer to what a 240SX/Silvia used to be and I liked those too.

I am going to keep my 2JZ-GTE swapped SC300. Having owned the MKIV twice I know you understand firsthand what the difference in feel is between a car like that and the GR86.

Yet you bought an 86 for yourself so there must be similar things you liked about it as well that sold you on it.


^^ These points are what fueled my decision as well. My SC300 is a 30 year old design with 30 year old technology but it ticks certain boxes that just aren't catered to any longer all in one vehicle. It's also less of a "luxury car" by today's standards than a modern luxury vehicle but it wins on interior room, generous back seat for a 2+2 and the decent enough trunk which you can drop things down into.

And at the end of the day I choose the GR86's 2+2, trunk and fold down rear seat layout. For how I use my car it's more suited to what I want to be in every day.

Yes, the GR Supra is superior... but not in terms of daily use, I think.

And the GR86 is no slouch as a an engaging, driver focused sportscar. It's engine is slightly under-rated and I really love its interior layout.


The Supra A91 6MT was never my interest. There is nothing really special about it to me. Different upholstery and some different paint colors but no mechanical hardware differences... yet it is more "exclusive" and costs more.

All your pros for the GR86 mirror my own thoughts. Overall I see it as much more practical and cheaper to run in an everyday car. And it's very fun and engaging to drive all that time with a very throwback 90's/'00's driver oriented interior and traditional controls. Also the touchscreen is integrated into the dash rather than sitting on top of it which I prefer.

Modifying my SC and having a bd case of the car bug....

I bought my SC300 knowing right from the start how I would modify it and what I was going to do to it. It was a deliberate pre-planned list of changes and modifications that I had in mind from the moment I looked it over on the used lot before buying it.

I knew what the chassis could have done to it and I knew that I wasn't going to be happy with it in stock form without most of the changes I would do to it.

The SC300 in my opinion should have come with 90% of the hardware I swapped into it from the factory. Since you couldn't buy such a car in stock form... I chose to buy the car and convert it into the car I wanted to begin with. The SC needed a lot of the soft luxury underpowered qualities replaced with sharper handling, better braking, limited slip control, better seats with bolstering, much better horsepower and torque, a better low beam lighting system, etc., etc.

The GR86 on the other hand... I do have a small list of things I am already wanting to do to it but for the most part I do not feel it is a car that needs nearly as much to get it set up well. It is far closer to how it should be in stock form than the SC300 was in stock form.

This was also the case with a Honda Prelude Type SH I used to own. I did some modifications to that car as well but even as limited as it was/is as a chassis it already had many more things in the right configuration from the factory than the SC300 did stock.

For me any car is fair game for careful and smart modifications but some cars need less initial changes than others do.

....

Also I agree that the stock brakes on the GR86 are very good and probably just a pad and fluid change will do quite well.

I just personally strongly prefer larger multi-piston brakes on any car that I own as overkill for both general stopping power and for better fade resistance when pushing the car hard under a sustained repeated braking scenario.

I have them on my SC (front and rear Supra MKIV TT calipers) and I'll swap over BRZ Brembos into the GR86 that I purchase.



^^ Thank you! Again as many others have pointed out I ultimately kept coming back to the fun feel of the GR86 and its interior layout being both driver oriented and practical. And capable of carrying at least a third passenger for reasonable trips if needed.

The practicality and cargo room just suit my current needs better. To have an exceptionally fun to drive and focused car that can also handle extra cargo needs and more than one extra passenger (we know it's tight back there... I have tried it myself now! But it works and that matters to me) is partly what sold me on the GR86.

The GR Supra manual still wins for overall awesomeness. The GR Corolla I love in a brutish angry warthog kind of way and technically that G16E engine and the four wheel drive system are drool-worthy... but it doesn't speak to me the way the GR86 and GR Supra do. Plus they're usually out of sight as to markups.

When you talk about the driving experience of both the 1st and 2nd gen 86's that is also a big factor for me more than outright power is. I loved the feel of the FR-S and GT86 6-speed manual. The added power and improvements of the 2nd gen win me over.

...

And thank you for pointing out that just swapping over the BRZ Brembo brakes will not void my warranty.

They won't cover those brakes specifically (right?) but the rest of the car will not be denied warranty coverage just because of that from the sound of it.

Small review
 

Sat in the GR Corolla Morizo, GR Supra and GR86 at the Toyota booth at NHRA drags:

The Supra felt more premium, but the windscreen is small, the hood is long and tall, and the A-pillers are pushed forward, so much so, that the combination of it all made visibility poor and made the car feel big. My wife was getting claustrophobic.

The GR86 was good. I like some things about the interior, but overall, I prefer my interior. The bulbous glovebox and vents were over the top. The MMS is just tacked on and not integrated well. The hood fenders are puckered in more, so looking over the hood makes it feel smaller or tensed; I prefer the first gen hood. Besides that, it felt familiar enough. I would get the GR86 over the Supra just off of seating experiences.

The GR Corolla Morizo actually had a pretty cool interior that felt special with all the alcantara bits and race seats.

Having been in a GR Supra's driver seat myself I agree that from the inside it does feel somewhat claustrophobic in a way that makes you think the car is bigger than it actually is. But for me that isn't a bad thing and I rather liked it. All my cars to date have had somewhat long hoods and the MKV was no different.

I haven't been inside a GR Corolla Morizo but I have seen one up close at a dealer (the dealership owner's car on long term display apparently) and the top range seats it has do make a big difference but it is still an overall upright seating position. Not that that is a bad thing in and of itself-- it is a hot hatch after all.

Honestly even if it were not so incredibly rare and hard to buy (the Morizo) I'd still prefer the Core w/Performance Pack LSDs or the Circuit Edition to have nearly all the same hardware and setup but with the added passenger utility. The only thing better than a Morizo would have been getting the GR Yaris in the U.S. and Canada.

To your point about the 1st and 2nd gen interiors I do like the previous BRZ / FR-S / GT86 interior also. I had no complaints about it at all when I test drove a couple of 2013 models.

...

I did end up buying a 2023 GR86 6MT in black from the dealer I put a deposit down with and I couldn't be happier with my choice! The car is both exactly the kind of no-nonsense driver's machine that it should be and practical for me at the same time for everyday use... which is where I really need it to shine.

Every time I get into it to do anything it really is a joy to drive!

And as for my SC300 comparison... I have kept that car and continue to enjoy it as well but now as my secondary car since the GR86 now serves as my daily and primary car. It has also given me the opportunity to get a few lingering services and long term changes the SC has needed sorted out. All of this worked out for the best!

Also I was pleased to learn of the announcement of the soon to be available Brembo brakes and Sachs damper upgrade package which will be fully covered under warranty once installed. I will be placing an order for that kit for my GR86 as soon as it becomes available. Nice that Toyota made it officially supported retroactively for 2022-2023's and not just 2024+ models.

The GR86 is a cheap entry level "sports" car platform. Supra is on another level and it doesn't make sense to compare so different cars. It is like trying to compare apples with oranges. Not sure how much you drive the car, but on highway with 70 mph the GR86 revs at 3100 rpm. Try to drive 4-5 hours at this speed and noise and you'll know the difference.

Do you have a GR86? Your profile suggests you're driving a Gen1.

I drive my GR86 350+ miles (one way) every month or two. That's roughly 5 hours each way.

Unless you put an obnoxious exhaust on it, it's not the engine noise that will get to you - it's the tires. And even then that's not a big deal. If you're looking for a whisper-quiet cushy ride that won't interrupt your enjoyment of the classical concerto on your stereo, this isn't that car.

If you're looking for a sports car that can do 95% of what a typical commuter car can do, this is it.

Personally, I would not want it to stop reminding me I'm driving a car.

+1

And everyone's perception of 'comfort' is a bit different. I've done up to 9hrs in my 86 in a day with a not-quiet exhaust and it was totally fine. But I used to do 5-6 hrs in a GD STi on track-spec coilovers a couple times a month and thought that was fine too :)

A car where I can hear and feel what's going on and get to have fun with it when the road gets twisty is going to keep me more engaged on a long drive. Getting bored and sleepy is a bigger concern to me than feeling like I'm on a couch of comfort.

A lot of people seem to conflate lightweight with cheap/economy. The 86 platform has higher NVH than say a Camry because they were trying to hit weight targets, not because they were trying to cut costs. The increased NVH is a byproduct of that. It’s like saying an Exige or S2000 are cheap sports cars since they have so much NVH. On any of these cars, the manufacturer could have added sound deadening and used thicker/denser materials, but at the expense of weight.

You seem to have completely ignored my comment saying I actually do enjoy driving the GR86. Yes, I am aware that it’s a “cheap” sportscar and that comparing it to a Supra MKV in terms of overall refinement and power isn’t really fair.

But the NVH and noise doesn’t bother me. It’s mostly tire noise that is the loudest as others have pointed out. I drove a friend’s Tesla Model 3 recently and that car is far too insulated for my tastes in comparison.

I’ve had plenty of years driving a ‘99 Lexus LS400 and while I feel that is one of the best practical luxury sedans ever made I don’t expect or want that level of refinement in a GR86.

Further, highway rpm’s. Okay, you feel they are high. Well it’s a 2.4L engine with 4.10:1 gearing. Of course it’ll be cruising between 3000-3500 depending on your cruising speed. The gearing in the 2.2L H22 Prelude I owned many years ago gave similar highway rpm’s. It’s the nature of small sport coupes.

Even my SC300 with its stock 5-speed gearing (4.083:1) was at 2800rpm @70mph in a big 3500lb chassis before I custom fitted an even higher 4.272:1 rear diff into it which did about 3500rpm @ 80mph in 5th gear. And I was fine with that for many years.

Now I’ve got it fitted with a 3.769:1 diff after it got a turbo and while it’s got lower overall cruising rpm’s with very ample power it’s still nowhere near as low in cruising rpm’s as is the ‘99 LS400 with its 5-speed A/T and 3.266 final drive ratio and a 4.0L V8.

All of these are different types of cars. The ones with the most in common in terms of displacement and gearing are the GR86 and ‘00 Prelude 5-speed example.

I didn’t expect the GR86 to be as refined as a Supra MKV or even as refined as my 30 year old turbo Lexus SC.

Yet I genuinely enjoy its balance of weight, power, agility and communication to the driver.

Not to mention I can use it more practically than a Supra MKV but that’s Toyota’s fault for not making the MKV a 2+2 like the MKIV.

I guess people were expecting a certain level of refinement based on price?

I more or less expected the car to be built to an economy car standard....which to me it is and it met that. pricing wasn't a factor into its "refinement level" to me, it was the type of car it is and how it was built.

I'd say the typical economy car has better sound insulation (particularly on the roof). But the typical economy car also has absolute garbage rear suspension and drum brakes on the rear wheels.

To me, anyone who thinks the GR86/BRZ are built cheaply for the price don't really know how much it costs to build a car that performs well. Sure, you can find a sedan with as much or likely more horsepower, better off the line acceleration and better fit/finish for about as much or just a little more. But that's going to be a floaty family car. It's built for commuter comfort first and require an obscene amount of money to make it go around a race track quickly. Whereas with these cars you need what, pads and brake fluid? Maybe stickier tires? So worst-case you're out maybe $1500 to get started as a semi-serious weekend track car, less if you want to start on the PS4's.

If you know cars you look at these and see where the money went and you see it was well-spent. The difference between crap and good isn't much money. But the difference between good and great is a fair bit more. To get to "excellent" can often shift the decimal place.

People shouldn't be comparing these cars' "refinement" to an A-B commuter car that happens to be a bit sporty. They should be comparing them to thoroughbred track cars that haven't been entirely gutted of their ameneties.

For $30-35k you get a track-ready car with A/C, cruise, all the niceties and a warranty. It's fully streetable AND practical enough to daily drive provided you don't really need rear seats. That's a frikkin' unicorn of a balancing act at any price tag, so when someone complains that the interior or stereo is "cheap" I just question whether they understand anything about what it takes to make a car any good to drive.

That’s kind of my point though. Blindly comparing two cars because they cost the same without considering purpose is crazy. Why is a $36k Miata is so cheap feeling inside and ungodly loud on the highway compared with a $36k Audi A3? Because it’s a RWD sports car that is intentionally as light as possible, at the expense of NVH and interior. They may cost the same but it makes no sense comparing them.

Even if it was free, I wouldn’t want 200 lbs of sound deadening or insulation on a Miata (or 86, s2000, Elise, mr2, etc.)

Also applies to how cars tend to overlap with the highest equipped "lower tier" car (say Corolla) with the cheapest "higher tier" car (say Camry)

And then its like, the Camry's is a better car....why would you buy an expensive Corolla over a Camry that costs the same?

Well....cuz the Camry is a BIGGER car and i dont want a bigger car, and i want a fully equipped smaller car....sure the Camry might be built to a higher standard, but its not necessarily a better car.

I had two of them. A '15 model and a '20 model. I'm keeping now the '15 model for my son. The GR86 hasn't changed much regarding NVH as far I know.

That's exactly my point. I don't race my car. I like to drive it on twisty roads in the mountains, but going there can be several hours of commuting. It is equal important to have a sporty drive as well as having a long distance cruiser. I think for this purpose Supra is better suited. If I was looking for an inexpensive track car or maybe for a daily driver, then GR86 would be a better choice.

I have to disagree. Imo my GR86 has noticeably less NVH compared to my 17' BRZ.

Exactly. There are significant differences between the two Gens. I've driven a Gen1 but I never owned one. The distinction is that you won't find me going to the Gen1 section of the forum to tell them how their cars work.

Also, nikitopo mentioned running 3200rpm at 70mph. In a Gen2 there's a simple solution for that: upshift. If you're cruising at 3200rpm you are not in the right gear (or you're going VERY fast). I think I'd be around 80mph in 5th gear to hit 3200rpm cruising.

And yeah, that'd be louder than using 6th gear at the same speed. But it would also be my own fault for doing that.

2017+ manual Twins with the 4.3 final drive are at 3,160 RPM at 70 MPH in 6th gear, vs. 3,020 for the 4.1 final drive (2012-2016 and 2022+).
80 MPH in 5th is 4,500 RPM with a 4.1 final drive. Is yours an automatic? That runs at 2,170 RPM in 6th at 70 MPH. Or taller wheels?

The SC Lexus are GTs, not sports cars. They're also so old, all kinds of bits are failing. My dad has an SC400 when they first came out. So quiet. So fast (for the day). Amazing Nakamichi sound. I have absolutely zero interest in owning one.

I don't get why people say you can't use big power on the street. There is a lot of time between 0 and 60. If it wasn't such a boat, I'd drive the tits off a Tesla Plaid.

If I just had to get a new gasser manual right now in the US, I'd probably go for the GR Corolla, GR 86, or M2. What I really, really want is the GR Yaris, but alas, I am in the wrong country. The Supra is just not as good as the M2.

If I just had to get a used gasser manual, it'd be a recent M2 or a GT86.

I really should go test drive a Cayman.

Yes exactly. I have a 4.3 final drive.

Because in a few seconds you're either way past the speed limit, or the car won't hook up.

My '135i with the DCT, TC off. From idle, floor it and it's spinning through 1st and 2nd. Feather it so you maintain traction into 3rd and you're above the speed limit for anything but a turnpike. And that car was only 300/300 with the 255 Michelin Super Sports out back (stock was 245 but I went up a size).

Which means, if you really want to go full throttle and enjoy, the only place you can really do it is long on-ramps, which you then, have to slow back down to merge.

If you guys really want acceleration, just go buy a liter bike.

A car not hooking up is part of the fun.

My main issue with my EVs is that, despite immense torque, actual control of their power means that every bit of their power gets put down without any issue. The i4 is 536/586 and it hooks up all day long.

So really, the issue is traction control.

Liter bikes, like all bikes, are death machines.

I mean spinning the tires was cool when I was 13.

What the hell are you even doing here on this forum??? Go get yourself a nice Prius, preferably the older one because it's slower.

Because I own a 2nd gen?

Sorry, I would rather the car hook up and go vs just roasting the tires.