Solution for Silicone in the Oil Pickup by Killer B Motorsport - Beta Testers Needed
 

The FA24 engines have a well-documented history of silicone collection in the oil pickup. Many have pulled the oil pan to inspect and remove this material to assure oil flow is free flowing and unrestricted. Here are a few examples...

https://killerbmotorsports.sharepoin...Duumw?e=Di3brT

https://killerbmotorsports.sharepoin...cVNyQ?e=D2dexS

https://killerbmotorsports.sharepoin...7afQA?e=c8v5sX

The goal of this product is to prevent large pieces of silicone from blocking the oil pickup's internal filter screen. The Killer B Motorsport Oil Pickup Pre-Filter is designed to prevent mass accumulation of silicone in the direct path of oil flow.

- Massive Screen Area to Prevent Restricted Flow.
- Textured Outer Surface to Reduce Silicone Cling at Oil Changes
- Easy Install with Positive Locking Tabs

https://killerbmotorsports.sharepoin...b-VTA?e=KpxjMA

Bench testing completed and we are a few weeks into alpha testing on our shop mule at this point. Testing has been uneventful, regardless of the abuse we've thrown at it. This pic was not 'testing' but give a good visual of flow through the mesh...

https://killerbmotorsports.sharepoin...Y9Wmg?e=gPa5QJ

With a solution-based product, we provide testing opportunities for enthusiasts as well as shops. If this is something you have interest in, please shoot us a PM.

In exchange for a free prototype product to test, we are looking for individuals that are capable of installing a product like this (dropping the reinstalling the oil pan), drive their car a lot, and/or regularly spend time on track, and can do a follow-up inspection at the next OCI.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k-TS1AG9NuE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k-TS1AG9NuE

Excuse my ignorance; if your dropping the oil pan to remove the rtv from the factory glob job then properly apply the right amount then of what use is this product? (not trying to be a ****)

No Worries! The amount of surface areas that require sealant are significant. The amount of sealant used and the manner in which it was applied is excessive. This resulted in globs of sealant dangling from the interior surfaces of the engine; Upper Oil Pan, Timing Cover, and both Valve Covers, that could let go and enter the flow of engine oil today, tomorrow, next year, etc...

It would make sense to drop the pan, remove any debris that made its way into the pickup screen, and remove any other debris that you can find. However, these globs of sealant are often tucked into places that are hard to inspect. For instance, they can be all around the inside of the timing cover, most of which you can't see well from underneath.

With this product you can install it today and worry less about those chunks of silicone that were waiting for their chance to clog your OEM screen.

It's actually a decent question. I like this concept as it also aids in future protection against the reapplication of sealant when you put the pan back on. Given human nature, you know someone has the potential to introduce this excessive sealant problem AGAIN.

Does this fit the FA20?

No, FA20 is metal with no ledges to clip in. Killer bee sells a much better FA20 oil pickup since it can be just replaced with the oil pan off. Lots of threads on vacuum pressure improvements with it

Or the other 90% of sealant you can't get to in the rest of the engine, if you only remove the oil pan.



It does not, but we do make an FA20 BRZ oil pickup that has a higher flow rate and larger screen area too :)

Beat me to it! ;)

the debate is 'how does one know they're applying the specifically-needed amount of sealant?'

too little, it doesn't seal. too much, it oozes everywhere.

the better question is, do you think you're better at the job than a factory programmed robot-- if they mucked it up, what are a humans chances of doing better?

While I like your train of thought, don't forget robots are programmed by humans. They only do what we tell them to do.

You don't.

There are some areas you could inspect post assembly, like the pan seal by sticking a borescope into the drain plug. Everything else like Upper Oil Pan, Timing Cover, and Valve Covers, you cannot inspect.

And that is the point of this product we've developed and are testing. If the silicone sheds, it won't matter. It will never become an oil flow restriction. You'd have to take the worst-case example and multiply it by 10 before it even made any kind of impact on flow.

We have 3 more units available to anyone else interested in beta testing some free parts :)

.

Maybe a moot point, but with your filter screen installed, would there be any benefit to deleting the OEM screen?

The fa24 pickup looks much different than the one in the fa20. Is this done to improve vacuum pressure?

That's assuming it's done by a robot. Given the inconsistency of some sealing issues (cam plate comes to mind), I always assumed the sealant application was done by hand.

Both could be true though. Just because a robot does one bit doesn't mean the rest isn't done by humans.

Still, I don't understand how hard it would be to develop a pre-formed seal a la BMW. With all the issues these engines have (even though they're not as bad as we sometimes make 'em sound), one would think Subaru would have saved money in the long run.

Kiss your warranty goodbye upon installation..

I wouldn't. Our Pre-Filter has much larger holes compared to the OEM pickup screen. It is made to catch larger pieces. Tiny pieces will go through and get caught in the pickup screen still, and anything smaller than that passes through both and gets caught in the oil filter.

Based on the pictures out there, debris that is getting caught in the pickup screen is mostly large strips and chunks, which is what our pre-filter will stop.

That depends on where you live. In the US, the Magnusson Moss Warranty Act specifically states that the aftermarket part must be the reason of the failure as grounds for the manufacturer to deny your warranty claim.

That would be like a dealer claiming that your new aftermarket head unit caused your brakes to fail and denying your claim for that reason. Without proving this as fact, the dealer would have no legal grounds for denying your claim.....and in this example, if they tried, social media would have a field day with it, and shame them into submission.

Also, the MMWA states that you may disassemble to make repairs to your own property, without voiding the warranty. Many manufacturers that put those little stickers on their product that state "Warranty Void If Removed" don't realize it, but that is not in line with the MMWA. Some manufacturers have even been fined for doing so.

https://www.tacomaworld.com/threads/...ss-act.609911/

If you don't want to follow link, here is the text....

yep. if someone else didn't post it, i was gonna.

this came up in another similar thread a while back. subaru uses a thin sheet metal oil pan that easily deforms. the block is also multiple separate parts that bolt together across the oil pan seal.

so to use a gasket would require a thicker oil pan. not difficult. but also, the block mating surfaces would need to be lapped after the block is assembled to ensure a perfectly flat surface for the gasket to seal against. which is really where a sealant works better than a gasket.

I was thinking more along the lines of a pre-cut silicon gasket like this for example:

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/s...IKjO0&usqp=CAE

Additionally, even if you spend a good bit of $, to install an oil pan with a thick precision machined flange to remove that RTV from that part of the equation, what do you do about the other 90% of the RTV that is used in the engine?

Only addressing the oil pan is mostly an exercise in futility.

Just went out to the shop and snapped these pics of the block-to-upper oil pan RTV. These are only the areas that can be seen, but there is a lot more that can't.

https://killerbmotorsports.sharepoin...3EGdw?e=yKbicc

https://killerbmotorsports.sharepoin...yRCGA?e=Swe9dY

https://killerbmotorsports.sharepoin...UZD0w?e=SibaJG

https://killerbmotorsports.sharepoin...R1i1w?e=uMjfed

https://killerbmotorsports.sharepoin...OGcsg?e=1PzH9P

Anyone can also go pop the hood and look on the timing cover and other places to see RTV oozing out everywhere.

It would need to be VERY thin. Anything that is soft and has some thickness to it, is going to cause the pan to bow between the bolts, even before you hit the torque spec, and it only gets worse the tighter you go.

The upper pan mating surface is only 4mm (.156") wide. So even if you had a billet pan with machined a flange, it's not wide enough to support using an o-ring groove, and marginally wide enough to support a traditional gasket. Having designed and made Suby oil pans for over a decade, we've tested many methods of pan sealing and none are anywhere near as effective as RTV. With our thick precision machined flange, the ONLY time we use a rubber gasket or pan with an o-ring groove is for in-house testing where we put the car on the dyno, make a dozen or so pulls and the pan comes back off. It's almost always wet somewhere, even after that short of a period of time.

Since we're on the topic of gaskets...

Just sharing that a shop in Taiwan has created a gasket for the oil pan for FA20/FA24. Not sure if that's the original oil pan, or other details which I have missed.

https://www.facebook.com/10005757693...LNHb4TpuQXai7D

You can get a gasket from AutoZone if you want. They work... but not nearly as well.

That is an OEM pan.

I'm glad someone else posted the the legal thing regarding M-MA.

People don't seem to get you'll have to prove to the dealer X didn't cause Y, not the other way around.

Bringing up modern BMWs and seals, not a great example. My 135i had less than 30k miles on it when I had to have the valve cover gasket replaced and the OFHG (oil filter housing gasket).

Especially because if the OFHG fails and you don't notice, it leaks down and causes the belt tensioner to fail, causing the crank pulley to potentially suck the belt past the front crank seal and possibly into the bearings.

Off-Topic: The engine is what keeps me from buying this car. I'm not a hater. I would like to be in love with the GR86. But really.

Enjoy your Fit then.

I do. It's a blast to drive. :D

and the issues are largely blown way out of proportion because of the enthusiast effect. if we polled only this forum on any topic, we're only getting about 5-10% of the purchasers of the car.

i like this product, i think it's a good idea, but that said, my motor is bone stock, and i've had zero issues with it since the original purchase in 2014.

The "issues" with the new gen are extremely blown out of proportion.

Do some searches on this forum, and you'll find RTV post from 2012 lol

The oil pickup design in these cars is lightyears beyond the outgoing generation. The car comes with a 60,000 mile powertrain warranty for a reason if you're genuinely that concerned.

I've owned all 3 cars, somewhere in the ballpark of 175,000 miles combined of worry free ownership outside of regular maintenance.

That's just true in general for just about every problem with every car.

Remember the Fiero? What's everyone "know" about Fieros? That they caught on fire, right?

There was a specific problem with a small number of the 1984 model that, if someone ran them with basically no oil could cause the connecting rod to fail, blow through the engine block, and dump any remaining oil onto the exhaust manifold. Boom, fire.

The solution was to not try to run your car without sufficient oil (good advice for any car).

But what everyone remembers is that Fieros were always just a notch away from bursting into flames.


The Twins - a tiny fraction of a percent of them have actually lost a motor to what might have been RTV. (Varying degrees of certainty) But "ZOMG RTV!!!11!" is what everyone wants to talk about.

The big scary stories are the ones people can't ignore.

Of course some of it is just good PR/Marketing. Ford recalled nearly 9 million vehicles in the 1990's for faulty ignition switches that could cause spontaneous fire (through no fault of the owner). About 370,000 Fieros total were built over 5 years, of which about 260 caught fire (with no deaths).

Yet Fiero's got the reputation of being fire traps. Ford was able to manage the story well enough not to get the same association (or at least not so permanently ingrained in public consciousness.)

Point is: we tend to remember the stuff that is big, loud, flashy, etc.

That's a pretty low bar :lol:

We lost an engines at 15K miles due to the resistance welds letting go, allowing chunks of silicone to get into the pump and causing it to split apart. Others have documented the same issue as well.

https://killerbmotorsports.sharepoin...uCgeg?e=EJYMJN

https://killerbmotorsports.sharepoin...x1XNg?e=Darc0G


One of our customers put it best. "The probability of failure is low and seeming insignificant, until it happens to me."

For anyone that mods/tracks their car in spite of the factory warranty, this is an item that is only going to give some additional peace of mind.

What's interesting is a product that may fix something, or maybe even only provide some peace of mind for $50 has many up in arms but spending $2,000 to alter the sound of the car, with zero potential performance benefit, and there is silence from the skeptics and critics. It's the complain about gas prices, but then getting a $7 mocha latte every morning :bonk:

FWIW, we have nearly 10 beta tester units out in the field now and a few more going out next week.

Duly noted.

...

You've said something similar in multiple threads, so don't buy one.

You're right. Perhaps I was hoping to hear a good counter argument to prove me wrong instead of simply being dismissed. I'm willing to concede that I could be missing something. But it's not the job of this forum to educate me.

Fellow Fit here.

Why not keep the Fit as backup if you don’t trust Subaru motor reliability, it makes for a good parts delivery vehicle for whenever your doubts come true...
That is what I did and im still waiting for my dependability doubts to happen… and really enjoying a different ride.

When I last checked Toyota & Subaru both offered warranties, I always figured if shit is going to happen it will happen early for both electronic & machines.
If you do buy one you will find out that your Fit can sit fine for weeks or months and be there when you need it.

I read a lot on this site before I bought my BRZ and compared to the recurring issues I was seeing on FIT (FitFreak) sites it came out pretty even
(leaks, paint, coils, battery, repeating electrical and bag recalls)
Fit issues were small and daily for some and here it was long-term, boosted or 1st year problem.

After 16yrs with the Fit I finally came to the realisation a lot of the concerns in the Forums were quite overblown.:D

Go tell the aviation industry, Honda and BMW that sideways engines are "dumb". They aren't dumb, they're just different.

Dual injection has been around a long time. The older school systems were port and shower injectors.

You are. That the number of failures vs cars sold is INCREDIBLY small, which you've also been told in multiple threads.

My local dealer even said they'd be happy to drop the pan, and if there is silicon in the pickup tube, they will fix it under warranty. But if there isn't any, I'll have to pay the labor of around $650.

This is why I'm not going to do anything that could cause a powertrain claim to be denied at the moment. I just have coilovers, wheels, catback on my '23 and it will likely stay that way for a while.