Best Braking Upgrade Progression for Daily Driving
 

So I'm thinking about getting some more "whoa" for the GR86.

Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong anywhere here, but here's my thought process:

Single Stop:
As long as heavy pressure on the brake pedal engages the ABS system your braking power is limited by your tires. Bigger/better brakes don't shorten your stopping distances because you need more grip.

Multiple Stops:
It's possible to be limited by tires on a single stop, and by brake pads/rotors/fluid/etc. if you're heating the brakes up enough they fade through heavy use of the braking system.


So from a non-track daily-driver perspective, tires are always going to be the first thing on the list. Naturally, the better the grip the worse the treadwear (generally) so there's the question of how much do you want to pay for tires (individually and more rapid replacement) for how much stopping power. Bonus - better grip does more than just improve stopping.

The next question is to what extent does heating play a role in braking performance of the stock brakes OUTSIDE track conditions. Spirited driving, extended downhill grades, etc. can all need repeated use of the brakes which, if unexpectedly followed by an emergency requiring peak braking performance could leave you with less stopping power than you need.


I've been eyeing the Powerstop Z26 "Street Warrior" brake upgrade kit specifically. It's not terribly expensive, carbon-fiber ceramic brake pads without the typical race pad noise, cross-drilled slotted rotors... and if we're being honest I'm more than slightly tempted just by the looks (and would probably paint the calipers while I'm in there.)

But the big question is whether it really makes sense in normal-to-spirited driving. I could (but haven't) go out and do some rapid-fire acceleration/braking to see how much it takes to lose braking power on the stock equipment and then gauge for myself whether I think realistically I'm ever going to hit that point real-world on public roads. My stance is that while I'd 100% do at least pads and fluid if I were going to track the car, my primary concern for the brakes are accident avoidance on city street/highways where other (stupid) drivers are allowed to operate motor vehicles despite obviously lacking the skills to do so safely.

Facts, opinions, suggestions, everything is welcome.

EDIT: should mention that I'm considering FI at some point in the future, after the risk-takers blow a few engines and determine how much boost is too much boost on stock internals. But that's obviously at least 8-12 months down the road.

The stock pads are pretty adequate for anything other than driving canyons like a crazy person or track use.

Cross drilled rotors are a downgrade.

The Z26 pads are fine, but not really an upgrade from stock.

I drive canyons like a crazy person on stock pads, they’re quite good actually so long as you don’t overheat them. I don’t think you’ll find a better pad for street driving without compromising on noise or dust.
One thing to note with the stock pads is they are very linear. Many people are used to pads with a ton of initial bite (this has become a trend for stock pads on econoboxes in the past decade, for some reason) but our pads apply the amount of braking that you tell them to.

I run TRD pads on blank centrics, I find they last quite a while longer before overheating on downhill than stock did. Nothing really wrong with the stock braking system for street driving, just get better fluid in there- having sewage for fluid is far more common than it should be.

+1 on the TRD pads.

WOW! You put a lot of thought into that street braking situation - :thumbsup:

Now, that you have overthought it, I suggest you just stick with the OEM brake parts, especially, since I have never seen a hill long enough in Kansas to overheat the OEM pads.

;)

Go with stock until you out perform them.

We do have roads that lead to other states... as much as we might prefer otherwise sometimes.

Provided the "out performing" doesn't involve stopping a few feet beyond an obstacle, that's good advice. Brakes are a "better to have and not need" kind of thing.

I think the conclusion here is that tires and not driving on the street like it's a race track is where the biggest gains are. I'll probably just wait until the PS4's wear down enough to justify replacing them with something stickier.

Or until someone has a great offer on a set of wheels that aren't "pickup only". I'm mildly amused by those classifieds on the forum - "why won't anyone buy these wheels, I'm offering them at a great price". Sure, but you've limited the buyers to just people willing to drive to get them. But I digress... mildly annoying to see a good deal that driving 1500 miles turns into a terrible deal.

Basic info but worth a read:
https://www.instagram.com/p/CN7YfpVn..._web_copy_link

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...f2480ae2_z.jpg

In short, what other's have said is pretty much spot on. What do you want to improve?

Nothing wrong with OEM rotors and OEM lines for your uses (and most people). OEM pads on the 2nd gen are better than 1st gen pads, which felt like crap to me. It would be difficult but not impossible to fade OEM pads on public roads while driving with some level of self-control.

There are a couple of mild upgrade pads out there that improve fade resistance and feel without making noise. Trade off is usually dust and they're not free.

- Andrew

not driving on the street like it's a race track is where the biggest gains are

Yeah

The stock pads on my 22 BRZ seem worse for daily driving than my old 13 FR-S. The initial bite is not great, especially cold. On the flipside, they seems to hold up to hard driving a little better. I wonder if this was an intentional compromise by Subaru/Toyota to keep costs down by keeping the same brake hardware from the 1st gen, but give it a bit more fade resistance to cope with the extra power.

I'm going to try swapping to Stoptech 309 pads for street use and see how those feel.

The problem is it's insanely expensive to pack and ship boxes that large and heavy when you aren't a vendor.

Check out the CSG CP. It sounds like a perfect match for what you're looking for.

Your OEM rotors are superior to those (cheap) slotted rotors. Spend the money on better pads and fluid instead, for a much larger tangible return on your spend.

The CSG CP is exactly that pad you're been looking for. Less dust than stock. No noise. More stopping power than stock. MASSIVELY elevated capacity for heat over stock.

I'm really curious to see what the CP pads are like to live with.

+1 for stock setup being left as is for any level of street activity. If what you want is bling (nothing wrong with that) get a set of stoptech cryo slotted rotors. $300 or so. They'll probably hold up around as well as OEM and aren't a legit downgrade like cross drilled. And they look proper.

I went round and round in the last few weeks trying to decide what to do for track day setup. Initial plan was just to do pads and fluid. Went all the way around the block considering multiple pad sets/multiple sets of rotors, BBK, you name it. I'm back to pads and fluid. I'm banking on driving for a week or two on the track pads cleaning off the rotors before I swap back to stock to avoid problems with deposits on the rotors.

This would be a total waste (even looks-wise) IMHO unless you are changing out the calipers at the same time to something painted that covers the entire pad.

On a related note, how hard/expensive would it be for Toyota/Subaru to make the stock calipers ones that cover the entire brake pad (and paint them)? Do they not do it to try to maintain desirability for the upgraded Brembos (or whatever) when they come out?

I don't track so stock pads/calipers are more than good enough for me. But even painted, they still look like crap (although better).

I get that, but I'd bet most of those sellers would happily ship if you paid the cost. But I'm not even going to start to try to talk them into it when they say "local pickup only". If it's a good enough deal to make the effort of that lift seem worthwhile, it's probably too good a deal to be true.

And if they're even remotely willing to be talked into buyer-pays-shipping kind of deals, they probably wouldn't have said "local pickup only" to begin with.

It just confuses me: wheels/tires take up enough room that - if you're storing them properly - you're probably motivated to get them sold fast. I wouldn't turn away any buyer if it were me.

But I think the whole massive-camber gang are completely incomprehensible, so I fully recognize that different people have different perspectives. Everyone should be free to do what they want as long as they aren't messing with someone else's freedom. (I'll keep the full contact patch of rubber, personally. I like being able to turn and stop properly.)

My $0.02 is that the stock rotors are fine. My planned upgrade over the winter is the following

Motul RBF 660 Brake Fluid (2x 500ml) - $55
StopTech Stainless Steel Braided Brake Lines (Full Set) - $125
ENDLESS Brake Pads (SSM Full Set.) - $225
(Would also recommend Project Mu if nothing from the Endless Catalogue catches your eyes. Can't go wrong with CSG Spec pads either.)

You'd be looking in the ballpark of $450.00 for a full upgrade, retaining the perfectly fine stock rotors. I feel like this setup would be good for Street, Backroads, Twisties and occasional Circuit Driving. The rotors IMO are more of a bling factor than anything. Some argue that the slotted and drilled can actually have a negative effect over a flat face rotor. In my opinion, if you're not racing the car odds are the OEM rotors are fine. They're very good quality to begin with honestly.

Living in Virginia with the mountain twisties we have here, I have pushed my car incredibly hard. If you're not on circuit I couldn't imagine really reaping a realistic benefit from aftermarket rotors or a BBK or anything of that nature to begin with.

It adds weight and a lot of cost for the only benefit being "it looks better" to a few people.

So then how come the aftermarket calipers don’t look like the stock? Seems pretty unbelievable that they would add that weight and sacrifice performance just to look good for “some” people.

My thought on this is that, usually, when a vehicle comes with an upgraded brake system, it is usually accompanied by other upgrades (Springs, sway bars, bushings,etc) that would compensate for the increase of unsprung weight, and balance the vehicle out in terms of performance across the board. Whereas a lower trim version wouldn't really see an increase benefit unless accompanied by said upgrades.

I agree those stock calipers scream "normal car" but upgrading calipers is generally big bucks. I'm weird and actually prefer a raw aluminum looking caliper. The AP 8350 calipers are the dream to me. And on the GR Corolla, I hate how the performance package ruins those perfect calipers with red paint :D

Because aftermarket calipers are quad piston (or more) and you can't see the pads.

and any painted calipers are going to be ruined with track use, proper track calipers don't get painted as fredzy commented on.


If you just want calipers for looks, cool. Accept that it won't have better performance than the stock calipers though.

Aren't the 4 pot WRX calipers like 2 lbs lighter than the ones we have stock? The sliders are heavy.

I was curious as well. They're 750usd which made my eyes water a little. Ferrodo Ds2500 are several hundred cheaper and are in the same category for usage.


I've been using stoptech sports on my gen one the better part of 3 years and 60,000-70,000km. Still seem to have some lift left in them as mostly daily use, with some canyon and 2 hours light track usage. The backing plate look like they're about to fall apart due to rust :lol:

Yeah, that's a LOT of money for pads, to be sure. I'm told with the AP 9660 (?) calipers they'll last a lonnng time. I guess I'll find out.

While in theory the DS2500 and CP fill the same role, the CP is quieter, less dust, and a substantially higher temperature tolerance, and provided similarly appropriate usage for each pad, more than enough longer life to justify the extra cost.

Does it add a lot of weight? Essex claims their 299mm AP Sprint kit removes 20 lbs from the front end of the car over stock brakes (Assuming that is 10 pounds per side)..

"Saves 20 unsprung lbs. from nose of vs. OEM brakes"

Even the larger 325mm kit claims a 10 lbs total weight saving..

For daily driving, I agree there is probably no discernable benefit in braking performance with big brake kits, though its never a bad thing to lose unsprung weight..

OEMs typically ADD more weight with brake upgrades.

Less rotor mass = less sink = larger temp swings.

Always balance the brake system "upgrade" with needs and use case.

The aftermarket calipers that don't look like stock are typically also made out aluminum.

Seems reasonable given they're optimized for this platform. Just hard pill to swallow with Canadian conversation which would put it closer to $1200.

A lot of that weight savings is in the two piece rotor with aluminum hat.

Funny, I have these bookmarked in my car parts folder for when I kill the stock pads lol. Heard great things about them, hopefully the performance lives up to the pricetag.

I hope you're not talking about the cp pads with those. Unless something changed, CSG doesn't do that compound for those.

Thank you. I thought I had a set of them in my basement. But according to this website they are not available, as you said. I looked up the part number on the box that I DO have (DR35.18.SP1) and it is just isn't there. Maybe @CSGmike can shed some light on this for us.

There are MANY pads (unlisted fitments, unlisted compounds), that may be available by request or referral only.

That said, I personally wouldn't run a street pad with a race caliper, but it may uniquely fit Pat's scenario.

When you told me this when I asked about CP for Essex calipers.

Mike and I have had many discussions about my "compromise" car. I make known sacrifices in some areas to better fit my priorities in others. My choice is an uncommon one. My car gets used in a much wider variety of scenarios than the vast majority of BRZs.

I still stand by that.

Any particular reason why? I'm just curious.