Official for scion...
 

Don't know if anyone else has checked this out, but I figure I'm just restating what everyone already knows. The FT-86 is officially on the US Scion's website under concept vehicles listed as the FR-S. It is still no where to be seen on the US Toyota website; in fact Toyota seems to be more focused on the prius line than a sports car judging from their website. So I guess all of us in denial about it being a scion can either put a gun to our head and end the pain, or suck it up go through life driving a scion...:cry:

On a side note, I couldn't find anything on the US Subaru site. If they plan on releasing the car in under a year I would've figured there would at least be a concept, unless that means they're not releasing it here in the US/N. America.

Any thoughts/new info/reason to live (lol)?

[Link to Scion FR-S]
http://www.scion.com/#/concept-cars/frs

Yes. The whole scion thing was a very expensive joke played on idiots who care more about what others think than the car. Toyota thought it would be a good PR move to cull the idiots.

Subaru hasn't really released the concept but they intend on releasing the car next year either way... they'll probably release a concept model @ Tokyo

Hopefully Subaru releases the production model instead of just a concept. :)

^ I have to agree... if they are targeting 1Q2012 they are more likely to show off a production model at the end of this year. There's no sense in showing a concept car that close to release, unless maybe it's a STI model planned for later release, but that could kill initial sales.

since they're basically the same car (with minor differences like bumpers, headlights & Taillights, interior) It doesn't make a whole lot of sense for Subaru to pump out concepts at the same time Toyota is. Just like how it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to test both a Subaru version and a Toyota version. You test one generic prototype that could fit under either marque in the prototype phase to keep people confused as to which version it is. Then, you make the minor cosmetic changes for the release of the production versions.

^^That..

*Assumption below..

Subaru really doesn't know how they are going to release the car as of yet. They are probably discussing options, moon roofs, group-n bushings in the suspension, bi-xenon, led lights, wheel/tires, aluminum control arms and links. They have to do things accordingly to allow it to be priced higher than the Scion I would assume, for the sake of not competing in price.

If both are priced the same within $1k a lot of brand nazis with go with the Subaru regardless if it weighed 100# more, I know a few hand full of people that would.

why? the pontiac vibe and toyota matrix coexisted. both were similarly priced. it makes absolutely NO business sense to sell the car at a higher price than it needs. you can add features as packages but the base price will be as low as you can go for marketing reasons.

i still contend that they will differ only in styling and minute features. like the DSMs of yore, its up to the individual companies to style and market the car without expressly competing with each other. people that think the subaru version may have a turbo STI model to "one up" the toyota version are just hoping and praying. there very well could be agreements that neither company come out with a "better" version of the other car so as not to compete with each other. things like suspension tuning, sure. STI package can have better suspension and brakes. something as significant as a turbo engine? now that's stretching it... would you, as toyota, allow subaru to one up you on a joint venture? its not as if toyota is buying a subaru developed chassis. its a joint venture. you cant have one version better than the other. it just doesnt work like that.

look at the DSM cars and that's what you're gonna get. virtual twins underneath with unique, company styling marketed in their own way. toyota will go with the "hey we're sporty" angle while subaru will go with the "cheap sports car, we can do RWD too!" angle...

I'll have the Scion version regardless. Just wish it had a Scion motor in it instead. If the car doesn't perform, then I'll do a 240sx with an LS1 swap in it.

I dont think moonroof will be an option on either car:mad0260:

^ I really want a sunroof/moonroof again but agree, I don't think the roof lines allow for one. Subie is the more likely of the two to deviate from those lines though, imo.

My one criteria for a proper car (aside from the rear wheels being powered) is a sunroof. I don't need any other options. I don't even care if its a manual sunroof like my m2 had. Oh well. Let's think of it as $1000 and 100 pounds of high up weight being saved

Matrix > Vibe only thing that sold the Vibe was "American" brand and 100k warranty.. Look where the company is now.

STI spelled backwards is force induction. $6+k premium will need to have more power to survive in the Subaru world, I can give 2 shits about Toyota world. If there is an agreement, which I feel there is because of this model deviating from Subaru's model, I see Subaru doing poorly. NASIOC and other Subaru sites already opened an ass whooping for no AWD or standard turbo, but to release a STI model without AWD let alone FI is blasphemous. Did you see how consumers responded to the 08' WRX LMAO, they quickly changed it a year later for bigger turbo(40hp) and better handling and even that wasn't good enough so then came STI flares, price basically stayed the same. That's what happens when Toyota adds their insight on looks and Suby guys say no..

DSM/DSi is a bad comparison it was over 20 years ago and they were turbo. If they keep the cars around same specs and pricing and no 1up'n, Scion will have a rude awakening, Plymouth Laser and Eagle Talons didn't do too well.

Majority of consumers would choose today the following.
-Focus RS, MazdaSpeed 3, or C30
Mazda lighter, faster, same $$
-Fiesta or Mazda 2
Mazda. brand >
-Fiesta ST or Mazda 2(n/a)
Fiesta. turbo > n/a

Ok. This will probably wind people up, but im going to play devils advocate...

Does it make sense for Subaru to release their own version of this car?

Its been said they would never have gone alone on this project, so would it be better financially to just do the joint venture as providing the bits they are for Toyota and creaming off some of the profits rather than spending on revising bumpers etc for little change?

Ok so a turbo version *if it ever happened* may yield more $$ for them, but I just dont see the point of a Subaru version with a different badge.

No, TBH it doesn't make sense unless Subaru has a standard model with option of moon-roof and other creature comforts. What's the point of having 2 cars with the same n/a drivetrain at the same/similar price. No point, especially when 1 brand is a semi-premium brand. I rather Subaru wait and release something that fits with their company model and current performance line-up.

For Subaru, it's about increasing market share. Toyota comes out with mainstream products and sells volume. Subaru is basically a niche marketer and the joint project allows them to enter into the mainstream. This product can also sell worldwide.

True, being small and RWD puts them into another market but what separates this car from Toyota? If this product deviates too much from Subaru's performance model then they may have a problem selling it to consumers as a performance vehicle..

All the Subaru press release are along the lines of theyre going to release a car as a joint venture. This I dont doubt.

Im not 100% convinced they will release their own version. At least not at the start.

I think they may just stick with the joint venture (read Toyota/Scion) whilst they decide how/if they want to spin off their own take on it.

Then why Toyota and Subaru made Toyota bB (Scion xB) & Subaru Dex. Daihatsu Tanto Exe (Daihatsu is owned by Toyota) & Subaru Lucra. Daihatsu Mira & Subaru Pleo. Opel Zafira & Subaru Traviq. Suzuki Cultus & Subaru Justy. They're all same thing, only difference is emblem and the name. We're talking bout they've been doing these kind of things from early 80's, why they need to stop it now?

It's all bout brand names. Some ppl prefer Toyota brand name over Subaru. Same goes w Subaru over Daihatsu and on and on. If they can make $ from just changing the brand name and customers are dumb enough to buy it then they're smart for doing that.

You confuse me with your logic. Read up on NASIOC and SOA blog posts. This car is being made at a Subaru plant. Yes even the Toyota version. Yes the Subaru car is coming out, as its own, branded as a Subaru. Yes it is coming. Confirmed for spring 2012.

how is the matrix better than the vibe when those 2 cars were basically the exact same thing with different exterior? its going to be exactly the same with the FT....

well, there you go. the above sounds a lot like evidence of either NO sti model or one that doesnt deserve the sti badge... both scenarios sound infinitely more likely than an sti model coming out with turbo...

yep. and lets not forget the obvious. color choices, wheels, body kits, etc. all of the above can separate the car enough to make it look like its own car. the perfect example that i can think of is the dodge stealth and 3000gt. a few exterior changes that made both cars look different, yet they still looked alike.

can anybody give an example of a joint venture where one side takes the joint idea and spins off their own version of it for themselves only? :iono:

Color choices....now that I think about it I hate scion colors....maybe I will be going subaru after all then

It's not as simple as that. A RWD lightweight coupe is also a niche car, it's not practical as say an Impreza for Subaru. So no, don't think this is Subaru's attempt to become mass market. They're not looking to this car as a volume seller.

This project allows Subaru to incorporate Toyota tech (D4-S) into their cars while offsetting R&D costs by producing the car as a joint venture.

Oh and whether it's produced in a Subaru factory or not doesn't reveal how similar/different the cars are. Do the two use different tooling at the factory? We don't know.

True, and with this car they're making their niche bigger. And part of the Toyota partnership, is Subaru getting access to Toyota's proven hybrid tech which will also move them into a new market. It all grows their market.

People need to look past just the one model when looking at the Subaru/Toyota relationship.

Well said. One just needs to read Subaru's "Motion-V plan" to get a taste of that. The FT86/216a project is just the first step.

They don't have to separate from Toyota. For Subaru, it's called a product extension.

What does this have to do with what I said?

Plain and simple. That shit doesn't fly over here in the US, have you not noticed? Having same car different badge rarely works. And the fact it's a Scion here, castrates the car for Toyota fans and normal consumers not wanting to be associated with the Scion image but love Toyota or would consider buying the car because being a Toyota, people can care less if it's Subaru/Toyota under the skin. If you were a real Toyota fan, you would reject Scion and have them name all the cars to the world counter parts under TMC.

20 years ago people fell for that. People today don't fall for that as much at least they shouldn't. The DSM/DSi was not such a good venture lasted somewhere around 6 years.

this car wont be as "niche" as people think. sure its a small RWD coupe most likely with tiny rear seats, but... its going to be cheap (supposedly). and that means people will buy it simply because its sporty, looks good, and is cheap.

the marketing fluff is all about the enthusiast, but look at the business moves. making it a scion? no. this car isnt about the enthusiast....