So much for CSG C2 pads lasting :(
 

So despite the absorbantly high price for the CSG C2 pad for my 86, I went ahead and took the plunge shelling out nearly 400 bux per axle. I just got done with my 4 total HPDE day (and it’s not like I’m that fast I just moved up to SOLO\Advanced on this last track day so it’s not like I’m Pro or anything) and the pads are SHOT. I’m soooo disappointed it’s absurd.

The PMU Club racer pads lasted me the same amount of time but they were half the price.

Add on top of that I was getting fade coming down the front straight at Summit Point so its not like they even held up with ambient temps in the upper 50’s.

I’m just shocked that this happened…

Here is the pads after day 4.

You may want to reach out to CSG. They might be interested understanding what happened.

What power, and tires are you running? Also you running Pedal Dance(Just asking)

Very strange, mine lasted me 18(!) track days! Ran them at four 2-day events last year and first five 2-day events this year, only had to replace them for last run this year. My favorite pads I've used and for me worth the $$$ partly because of the durability.

I pinged CSG I’m hoping they do something because this is just pure craziness.

I have only Tomei UEL headers. That’s it.

pedal dance? Or what traction mode?

Just holding down the track mode button.

CSG just got back with me already and I emailed them right before I posted this thread. I’m hoping they do something to make it right.

I see you have 2020 so you have the new Traction mode. But I highly recommend you do pedal dance when driving the car on track.

I can certainly do it and I’m at a point now where it makes sense. I just don’t imagine that would cut the pad life in less than half.

CSG just had me take pictures of everything so there I was in the dark putting the car in the air to take pics of the rotors and insides of the calipers. Here’s to hoping they pull through.

Track mode button, or long-hold on the traction control "OFF" button?

Weird. Most report these pads lasting close to 20 trackdays.
Send more pics of pad and rotor.
What track were you at?
Is it possible they never got up to temp? Maybe too cold to get bedded in properly.

Button push not hold

Was it fronts or rears that were gone

Fronts

So that means you were in sport which will still use Brakes to help with TC but they should have lasted way longer.

You have Brembos though (bigger rotors, bigger pads, bigger caliper, more thermal mass everywhere?),
while @Jstyle has base calipers.

What makes it even more interesting is one of the days was in the rain with a wet track all day (NASA Fall Finale) and my last track day was wet for the first two sessions.

You should do the long hold on the traction control "OFF" button on the left. Or "pedal dance". "Track" mode leaves nannies on and will work the brakes more, plus it's no fun!

Def will next time.

gotcha. Sometimes the rears go down because the nannies are correcting mistakes

On 4 Track days with CSG C2s and they look no where near this, that said I feel like these pads are going to last me into the early part of next year event wise.

So, question, do you daily the car? Do you drive a lot on city (lots of stop and go)?

I am a fan of PFC, both on the track and off. PFC 08 is old but lasts a long time both on and off the track.

That said, are you just braking too much? I don't know your mods, but some very fast people manage to get a lot more life out of their pads.

Nope its not my DD it’s a track only car. But I don’t trailer the car I drive it too and from the track in it. On the upside all 4 of my track days were at Summit Point which is 41 miles for me each way.

I think I just have a really bad batch or something because there is no reason I should have gotten the results I did.

I'm gonna vote bad batch. I had EBC Yellowstuffs that lasted longer than 4 track days.

Honestly, if you're driving the car hard and the track is heavier on braking, 4 days is about all you're going to get on any brake pad on these cars with stock calipers...
Some tracks are easier on brakes and will help last longer, but advanced level driving and a track that's hard on brakes will eat up pads. There's nothing really unusual to see here. Cheapest solution is a front bbk.

Let us know what happens. I can confirm that my pads are lasting a really long time, closer to 8 track days with lots of life left.

Here is an interesting theory, maybe the pads were too cold? If they aren't up to operating temps, they could get chewed through faster.

But if you aren't doing Traction off or pedal dance, stability control is going to beat up the pads, which may have been worse in wet conditions.

Sent from my Pixel 6 using Tapatalk

I have recently had two friends that have gone through sets of carbotechs in 1/3 to 1/5th the time they normally run through them.

Sort of wondered if the Carbotechs had a bad batch as well.

The crazy part is I loved them with no fade the first three days. They went to complete shit on the 4th.

https://www.ft86club.com/forums/atta...1&d=1636838193

Having zero context, the heavy taper on the pad indicates to me that there are a few possibilities here.

- very heavy ABS use
- caliper is compromised and sticking

There is a major tell here:

- In your picture, the left edge of the pad is significanly thicker than the right edge. While it's not a great picture, it looks to be about 2.5mm pad on the left, and 4.5mm on the right


Do you have a track datalog and/or temperature data and/or rotor pictures?

Additional diagnostic steps:

Photos of all 4 pads, from side and pad material face. This will help determine if one caliper is sticking or not.

Photos of the caliper boots: same as above

If both left and right are wearing evenly relative to each other, it's not a caliper. If the wear is uneven, then it is a caliper.

If rear wear is about 30-50% of the front, then something else is wrong. If rears look almost new, then excessive ABS use is the problem.


Pad batch isn't the issue; C2 pads from the same batch have successfully completed 8hour enduros with no pad changes.

So it’s just the way I’m holding it. Largely speaking the pads were pretty even across all four. I would show pictures of it but in a fit of rage I threw them in the trash.

The rears are probably 60% or so.

I get it that it may perhaps be how I’m braking. I don’t feel the ABS but maybe I’m hard on it. All that being said… there is no way these should have died so fast.

Can you go dig em out so we can get more photos?

Do you have any photos of the rotors and calipers?

Any photos of the rears?


Help me help you.


Modern ABS is so good you won't feel it in the pedal; you have to see it in the data. Typically in scenarios like this where pad wear is even, inadvertant ABS over-use is the usual culprit.

If the rotors have radial banding and juddered deposit along the swept path, that's a good indication of ABS.


How much power are you making and what does the car weigh? Fade with C2 is highly unusual. Even guys using slicks don't fade the C2 in HPDE/Sprint sessions. All pads will lose thermal capacity as they wear; this is just a function of mass. A thinner pad will run hotter, and thus, overheat faster. That said, I'm not sure I've actually ever heard of anyone fading the C2 on the 86, even with a base caliper. The fact that the pads ran without issue previously would indicate that it's not a defective pad, as a defect would have manifested immediately the first time they get hot.


Are you gently squeezing the brake pedal or mashing it and hanging on for dear life?

I’m trying to modulate the brakes as I go into corners. I’ve learned early on that stabbing any of the inputs is usually a bad thing :) so pushing the brakes hard but not standing on it then jumping off.

Here is the rotors and the calipers. The car has less than 4K miles on it so the calipers I feel like definitely should be good.

The rotors look like they have cracks but it’s just spider webbing. My nail doesn’t hang on anything.

The only power mod I have are tomei headers.

The trash is gone or I would have grabbed them.

You only got 3 days out of Pmu CR's IIRC?

I have to think that the "Track Mode" is part of it. If you're carrying speed, the brakes are doin stuff... Do the 3-second hold on the left "*car w/ squiggle lines* OFF" button (TRAC OFF and VSC OFF lights will both come on). Or pedal dance.

You may also be being too hard on brakes too deep into corners, try braking maybe a bit earlier and trailing OFF of the brakes more between turn-in and apex. Had two students this year who gained massive time by braking a smidge earlier but getting way more OFF the brakes a lot earlier in the corner. Then looking at some of my own data last event this year, same thing, I gained 4 tenths in two braking zones (of course only in practice and not in the time trial tho)! Getting more OFF the brakes earlier is one of the last keys to getting faster.

I would bet having Brembos might be getting me 2x "normal" brake pad life, but that should still put non-Brembos in the neighborhood of 8 track days for C2 pad life!

Yeah unfortunately all I have as a data recorder is TrackAddict so I don’t have that deep of a level of diagnostic.

I get it I can work on my technique next year for sure. Just having a hard time wrapping my head around spending 100 a day in pads.

Yeah that sucks... FWIW I also got good life out of the Project Mu CR pads (just one set), but they didn't have anything like the bite and feel of the C2s, especially right out of the gate, stone cold.

End of the day some drivers just use brakes a LOT harder than others. Even turning the same lap times in the same car! *IF* it turns out that your fastest/quickest-laps driving style is just HARD on brakes, you'll have to address it with big brakes and/or ducting I think.

Also pad selection is *extremely* driver-dependent, so what works for me and what I like may not work for you or be what you like.

But at least try running with the long-hold on the "TC OFF" button, or pedal dance, and try braking a little earlier and getting off brakes earlier. If you burn through another set in 4 track days, maybe time to invest in BBK or used Performance Pack car!

Can you expand on this?

https://www.ft86club.com/forums/atta...1&d=1637109474

The judder in the rings of the uneven pad deposition indicate that you're very, very deep into ABS. Note the breaks in the rings going around the rotor, as well as the change in deposition as you go from the inner diameter of the rotor to the outer diameter.

Here's my rotor from my 2022 BRZ after running Auto Club Speedway for ~30 laps. Auto Club Speedway is very, very hard on brakes, as each lap for me consists of braking from 128-35, 87-40, 110-35, 112-40, in under 2 minutes. It's a very, very high energy track. Note how my deposition is smooth with breaks, and even across the entire rotor surface. I had a passenger every session.

https://i.imgur.com/N5pgkk3.jpg


My guess is that you're likely an intermediate level driver who's confidence is growing, and are laying into the pedal a bit too deep.

Turn off the nannies, and hire a pro coach (not a volunteer; they're well intentioned but will likely not be able to eliminate your bad habits). You'll both grow as a driver far faster, and significantly cut your consumable use, both in brake pads and tires.

If you prefer to keep laying deep into ABS, buy a pad designed to accommodate ABS use. Keep in mind that ABS use will always result in hotter brakes and faster consumable wear.