S2000 vs 86
 

Hi, I posted like 3 years ago about trying to decide between an 86 or an S2000. Well I bought an S2000 which I like a lot but I feel like roadsters are not really my style... I love the engine and the handling but it's not really easy to drive. The steering feels lifeless and has a huge on center deadzone. I have Ohlins DFVs on and it corners at incredible speeds but it still doesnt feel so good driving it. Maybe a square setup and stiffer springs would help. Anyway...

I love how the 86 looks, way more than the S2k actually. I was looking at some videos recently and I noticed that the 86 actually puts up very similar times with the S even with 40 less hp (on equal tires of course). Does the 86 actually corner better than the S? Im thinking of trading my car for an 86 (I'm sure I'll miss the engine but an ace header and a tune should equalize them). Assuming equal tires and suspension does the 86 have better handling? I keep reading the 86 is so easy to drive unlike the S and if thats the case its a no brainer assuming the 86 can corner equally as fast as the S. Will I miss my car?

Get a Miata

lol no

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Why not get brand new gr86? The 86 is very easy to drive.

How long is a piece of string? I've beaten s2000s and been beaten by them.

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I prefer the old one's looks. Im just curious how well the 86 corners compared to the S2000, if its at least as good I prefer the 86

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The s2000 is generally accepted to be slightly better than the 86, but it has a higher requirement in terms of skill.

Look up the savagegeese videos.

Most of the videos I've seen say the F20C is miles better than the FA20 but the 86 actually corners better than the S given equal tires (enough to make it put out the same times with less HP). I think CSG Mike says so and he has both.

So you made a thread asking a question you already had the answer too.
:clap::paddle::sigh::thumbdown::slap:

Care about handling but "lol no" at a Miata.
:iono:

If I wanted a roadster why not keep the S2000

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Again why the hell are you even bothering to post then if you don't want a roadster?

If you don't want a roadster sell the S2k and get a twin.

I'm asking people who've driven both for their opinions. You dont have to be in this thread if you dont want to

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Miata Is Always The Solution!

I loved my S2000! Except for the wind noise... REALLY wish there'd been an S2k fixed-roof coupe and/or hatch!

FT86 steering is much better than the S2000's. MUCH better.

FT86 steering wheel adjust uppie/downie and also innie/outie vs. fixed s2000 wheel. And driver's seat also adjusts uppie/downie. So you can dial in your fit in the car. This is huge, I never cared for how high up you sit in the S2000 and the seat/steering wheel/pedals positioning wasn't quite right.

S2000 F20C engine is/was a fricking gem. I'd love to have that engine in my BRZ. But the FA20 is fine and also loves to rev, at least within the much lower rev range!

S2000 has *way* better weight distribution at 49F/51R, vs. FT86 at 55F/45R. Not *that* big a deal for most usage, but less than ideal at the track. You can dial in a good setup but mine still overworks the fronts with the rears being somewhat underutilized. Also if you want to add power, it won't be as easy to put it down due to nose-heavy.

Overall, I love the BRZ even more than I loved my S2000. It's a much more day-to-day liveable car and the MUCH better steering and perfectly dialed-in driver and steering wheel positioning make driving it more fun and more of a pleasure for 95% of my usage.

Would you say the 86 is less capable than the S on equal mods? I dont want to downgrade even if it means its a lot easier to drive.

Yea I miss having a coupe, the S feels claustrophobic with the top up

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Mod vs. mod, I think the S2000 is going to come out on top in terms of outright performance. I mean, same weight with +30 more hp and much better weight distribution, it has some pretty significant advantages...

But with a few relatively minor mods, my BRZ KILLS what my stock S2000 would do at the track. I mean KILLS it, by a couple/few to several *seconds*. And again the driving position and steering feel in the BRZ is WAY better. And fixed roof :) And you can fit a fair amount of stuff in it.

I don't think you'll be disappointed if you make the move, I'm not.

Thats good to know thanks. What kind of mods if you dont mind me asking?

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Camber plates (Raceseng) up front, stock camber isn't nearly enough...
Lowering springs (Swift Spec-R)
Struts/shocks (Bilstein B8), kind of necessary if you both lower the car and run camber plates, stock front struts don't have enough bump travel!
Eibach front/rear swaybars (*way* stiffer than stock)
4-2-1 header (ACE 350) and tune (Zach at CSG)

Obviously there's other ways to get there, I might go to coilovers next year but good lowering springs + Bilsteins makes for a great street/track compromise IMO.

I resorted to header/tune and sways this year because spring/damping rates are kinda soft for serious track usage and I compete in time trials and it was close this year!

Header and tune greatly improved drive from mid-rpm, more so than expected, but top end power not much more vs. stock '17+. Definitely not required.

https://japanesenostalgiccar.com/maz...hter-nd-miata/

https://japanesenostalgiccar.com/wor...er-640x320.jpg

aw yeah baby!

I've tracked my friend's AP2 at Buttonwillow while instructing him and also driven it many times in the canyons. In terms of speed, an FR-S on e85 tune (2017 OEM header, mishimoto inlet tube, slight weight reduction) is about even 10-90 mph vs. stock AP2. Basically +/- 0.25 carlength. If you don't have e85, a good header and tune should give you about the same gains. Or buy a GR86 which is already 1-2 carlengths faster vs. AP2. The S2000 doesn't have great aero above 70 mph especially top down, which is something I noticed vs. AP1 (80-125 mph at the track).

Handling-wise vs. AP2, it will come down to setup/tires/driver. For whatever reason, my friend's AP2 feels more sensitive to trail-braking in the canyons, but on the track the overall balance is very similar to my FR-S (RCE T2 coilovers, track alignment, pedal dance). AP1 might be different with the bumpsteer. Balance aside, my car is faster than his AP2 in corners, but that's mainly due to tires and setup. Steering feel is better on the FR-S.

Also ergonomics are better in the FR-S. The FR-S seats have more bolstering and are more grippy (cloth vs. leather). The steering wheel extends/tilts. When I drove his AP2 at the track, my knee kept bumping into my bottom hand on the steering wheel in the middle of turns.

Can't really go wrong either way. I'm planning to trade my car in for a GR86. Briefly thought about buying an AP2, but I really enjoy the 86 chassis and a new GR86 seems a much better value vs. used S2000.

So no power mods, just camber essentially. Thats awesome, were you running 215s?

Why didnt you go with a 4-1 header for top end power?

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Oh yeah, forgot, running 17x9 (Titan 7 and Wedsport TC105n) with 245/40-17s and/or 235/45-17s. Might run 225s next year depending on points allocations...

I figured filling in midrange was more important. Only reason I got a header was a friend and competitor got one (friggin arms race). He got a good 4-1 and I got the ACE. He dynoed +5hp more peak but mine made way more midrange. I drove his car at Palmer and the lack of grunt going up the hill from 4-5 was very noticeable. Our max speeds at the end of the straight were the same. I was about 1/2-sec faster in time trials :)

I think we can say that these two cars as well as the Miata are close enough, that personal taste, likes, feelings etc have more to do with the choice than debating which one is better at this or that. Drive all three, examine your life/needs/wants and go with your gut. You can always sell and buy the other one, or own all three at some point in your life if you are lucky. They are not that expensive on the used market.

99.9% of people over here will focus fixing the torque dip in middle rev range. There aren't that many to appreciate getting more power the higher they go in rpm. I guess times are changing and with so many turbos almost everywhere people nowadays have different expectations.

The torque dip never bothered me. Based on recommendations of people who have track experience with both, I went with the more midrangey header option over maximum peak for better performance at the track with a stock engine spinning to 7400-7600. As mentioned, my bud's same-year 86 with similar mods but 4-1 EL header had objectively less drive out of corners and no speed advantage on the straights despite 5 more peak whp.

Another big factor was that a used Ace-350 turned up in the classifieds...

The torque dip is only a problem if you’re in the wrong gear.

The end

The s2000 Ap1 & Ap2 is the better sports car out of the box. The motor and transmissions til this day is still considered special. You either like roadsters or you don’t. Get a hardtop otherwise. The 86 is a good entry level sports car and does what it was intended for well but still not special like an s2000 is. One continues to go up in value, the other is a dime a dozen.

Unless you want a coupe and don't live in Japan.

Oh, and it's Miata Is Always The Answer... Except if you want a coupe... :D

How does an 86 with a header and tune on 98 octane (Europe gas so its probably similar to your 91 octane) compare to an s2000? Mine has a test pipe and is approximately 30kg lighter than a stock S.

Im curious how a header+tune 86 on square 255 compares to a 255 square S2000. Im guessing the S is getting a major beatdown

The reason I'm looking to trade in is not because the S is a bad car, quite the opposite actually. I just really prefer how coupes look and I never really look back at the car when I park it (4 seats dont hurt either, it sucks when you cant take more than 1 friend with you), getting even better handling is the icing on the cake. The trade wont cost me any money

I think you might be overthinking this, dude... You're going to have a lot of difficulty trying to explore every combination and permutation of 86 and S2000.



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I'm trying to figure out if what I really care about will be better on the 86 thats all... Its just 255 square is a popular setup on the S and I was curious how the two compare on completely equalized tires

Double wishbones on the S are made to sound like theyre a great advantage but I dont see Porsches doing too badly on their struts. From what I gather the struts dont allow you to adjust camber as well and dont increase negative camber as much as wishbones do when the suspension compresses (which should be negated by camber pins on the 86)

Don't forget that the BRZ has a super low CG due to boxer motor. Lower than a Caymen if I'm not mistaken. That counts for a lot, even though it's McPherson strut vs double wishbone.

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This guy has owned 3 S2000s so worth a look at his opinion.

https://youtu.be/oicgb0R8XOw

Still not sure what to do. This is my car

Looking at your car it looks like it is in pretty good condition. If it were me I’d keep it, drive it around for a few more years, it is only likely to go up in value. Whereas a 1st gen twin will be cheaper. In a few years you may be able to pick one up cheap and have both cars. Drive both for a year and then sell one if you want.

If I had an S2000 in that condition I wouldn’t sell it.

Looks very nice! My first car had Ultraleggera’s too! I do not miss cleaning those wheels but they’re so pretty.

I agree with the above, if you’re able to keep it nice and prevent it from racking up a lot of miles, it will only appreciate from here on.

I kept my s2000 until it was a 240k mile rusting heap with cracked windshield.
Yours looks great (except for those hideous headlight washers, my GOD!), if you love it, keep drivin it...

The wheels are gorgeous but yea they never stay clean, even with washing every 3 daysYea theyre ugly and they also shower you with nasty washer fluid whenever you wipe the windshield, dumbest idea everNew 86s cost 40k where I live, my S barely costs 18k lol. Even used 86s are 25k+. Well there's always time for a differenr experience, I'm leaning towards keeping the S2000 and getting an 86 way down the line like you're suggesting. Seems like a waste of money right now

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If you enjoy your s2000, I don’t see a reason to trade for an 86, especially if it would cost you money to do it. The main advantages of the 86 are the fixed roof for track days and the practicality (interior space, cargo space, quieter, security). And looks since you mentioned that. Only you can decide whether those things are worth the price of trading in. Just know that if you want the 86 to match the s2000’s performance, you also need to factor in the cost of mods.

Not sure what else to tell you that hasn’t already been said. I enjoy driving my FRS more than my friends mostly stock AP2 s2000 and my car is faster (canyons and especially track), but my FRS has many more mods. But it was worth it for me since I needed the practicality of the FRS and I’d make the same choice again in a heartbeat. But if you already have the s2000 and it’s practical enough for you, I wouldn’t switch unless there was a compelling reason to do so.

I had both. I came from the AP2 S2000, to 2019 86 TRD SE, but now I have sold my 86, hopping back to another AP2 S2000.

(stock to stock)
the 86 corners better, but "felt" sluggish/slow in higher rev.
the S just overall feel better, not sure why, maybe I am bias to the high end rev push feel from honda engine. I do think from looks the S is more classy as well.

And I miss my S so much that I sold my TRD SE at only 3210 miles last week.