Crash bolts alignment change
 

I have been seeing some of you that installed crash bolts getting from about -1.2 to -1.5 camber. What I haven't see is how much toe-in are you getting before you change it to your desired settings? I'm debating on installing them for a couple runs this weekend but I won't have time to string up the car until the following weekend. If its minor, I'll just deal with it and maybe guess a couple flats change on each side. If it major though, I'll just hold off.

I did not do a "before" toe measurement, but the "after" measurement was exactly zero. That made me happy. I haven't checked my final camber numbers either.

Strange. This would mean either your toe was a bit out or it didn't change which seems less likely given the geometry. Did you check your camber before?

i'm new to these crash bolts. can someone explain what they are? from what i understand, our car's alignment settings cannot be adjusted with the stock suspension components? can i still race in stock class with these crash bolts installed?

On the strut where the hub connects it, there are two bolts the hold the angle of the hub relative to the strut. In stock form, this is roughly 0 (perfectly vertical). The crash bolt has a slightly smaller diameter and replaced the upper bolt on that arrangement allowing the top of the hub to "tilt in" relative to the strut producing negative camber, around -1.3 on the FRS/BRZ in stock form with the one allowed crash bolt per side for SCCA stock class.

do all 4 wheels need crash bolts? is there a reason why subaru didn't include the bolts and allow end users to adjust the camber?

No the rears aren't struts so it wouldn't work. Also, for SCCA class, you can only do allowances based on the service manual for street use repair. Crash bolts are really for correcting alignment issues after a crash or other incident where you can no longer get within factory spec.

As for why, I don't know why we didn't get adjustable camber bolts like the WRX does on a car that seems even more destined for motorsport use. But it is what it is.

got it. it's like a bandage when your alignment is out of spec.

are the rears non-adjustable, period?

i find that interesting as well that they didn't include components to make it adjustable from the factory. what do other tuners do when they have a non-adjustable factory suspension? do they just install crash bolts as well?

Yes and no. You can usually loosen up the rear components and get a bit more negative camber and then tighten it all back up. I'll do this when I get it stringed up on the lift.

I hate the word tuner. :)

Depends if they are following any racing rules or just doing it as they please. Within SCCA stock class, this is your typical option for a McStrut car if its in the service manual to allow it. If there are no rules or they are less restrictive, you can do cam bolts (eccentric bolts), camber/caster plates, or new mounting points.

got it. thanks for all the good info.

I'm probably gonna try installing oem bolts tomorrow with diy tools, so I'll try to measure before/with just bolts installed.

Ok, an update.
Got my bolts today.
Measured my camber/toe in my apparently uneven garage. Came out to ~-0.1° on the left and about -0.9° on the right. And no, my fat butt wasn't in the car, and I shook everything well to let it settle w/o my weight in the car. The total toe (at ends of my basic tool, which is basically two horizontal bars leaning on the wheels) was about 4/32nds toe-out.

Put in crash bolts. Ended up with about -1.1°/-1.9° L/R camber and about 1/32nds toe-out.

Also, since I loosened the nuts on the steering arms in expectation of needing to adjust them, there's a possibility that alignment has changed by about one faucet between start and finish.

All in all, I'll call it good; and I am surprised that the toe changed that little.

Off to test-drive the thing.

Seems like a good post to bump.

Today I noticed again how little the toe changes with camber. I wanted more (and cheap) camber up front, so I added some SPC/Eibach adjusting bolts to the *lower* hole to supplement the stock bolts in the upper hole.

If I did everything right, I managed to get another degree of camber (now about -2.3 deg/side) with the added bolts.

Now, for the problem. I have plenty of tire-strut (specifically, the spring perch) clearance with the stock tires, but with 245/40-17 Star Specs on 17x8 +45 (RPF1) wheels that space goes to damn near zero (I measured about 1/16")

So, beware if you want to go this route. Probably fine with coilovers, but not so good with stock shocks/springs.

Adding a degree of camber to each side took me from 0 toe to about 1/16" in.

you want this
http://www.energysuspensionparts.com...sp?prod=KCA416
top hole

So we installed some whiteline bolts Monday. We also noticed toe does not change with camber. It's due to the low steering the frs has. We were pretty happy with this. You can add negative camber on race day and change it back if needed for daily driving with out having to worry about toe.

Also why did you choose to put bolts into the bottom and not the top. Most camber bolts replace the top bolt in the knuckle.

This was more a warning that 2.5 deg of camber with crash bolts will get certain wheel/tire combos very close to the strut.

I put the bolts on the bottom hole because the top hole is occupied by the Subaru camber bolt (14mm in a 16mm hole) and the bolts I bought are made for a 14 mm hole. I didn't get 16mm whiteline because they cost 30% more ($35 vs $20), , don't work in the bottom hole, and don't have an Amazon Prime option.

That said, I might go with a 16mm bolt up top with the stock down bottom if I have rubbing issues with the current setup.

Ahh ok. Are you worried about 2 camber bolts in the same strut? Don't need the bolts to snap or anything. As a heads up this is what I'm thinking for the off season stay at -2degrees up front and run 245/40/17 on a 8.5 inch rim hopefully 42offset

They ought to slip before they snap...

I used two bolts/side on my Celica, but I do admit, the Celica bolts were much heavier duty. I'm still debating between RTR and STX, otherwise I might just slot the struts and use the factory bolts (slotted struts are free).

Does the caster change?

Doesn't the service manual say to change only the top bolt?

Yeah, I'm worried about the rubbing too when I decide to upgrade the tires and wheels.

I'll most likely stick to 17x8 +44 or lower offset and on 215 star specs.

That is one huge thing when I went to the coilovers. I have KWv3s and have probably 1" of clearance between the 255s on a +35 with nearly -3 camber. I'll rub the inside of the wheel well turning long before the tire will hit the coilover itself.

Don't know. The service manual doesn't cover Whiteline or SPC camber bolts, just the factory bolt. You really can't mess up the factory bolt, it IS the lower bolt, you get a 2nd lower bolt and put it in the top hole. putting it in the wrong place will result in no change at all.

Caster won't change measurably when doing camber bolts.

I wouldn't be worried about tire rub with 215 width tires. With a 215 on an 8" wheel, the wheel will likely hit first. I'm having (potential) issues with 245s.

I got around -1.2 with the crash bolts. I'm at -2.2 total with the whiteline top hats and crash bolts.

What's your solution for the suspension?

For the rear camber? Nothing yet. Eventually lower control arms I guess. Haven't dealt with it yet, will be on coilovers eventually and won't be running as low so I'm *hoping* it'll just work out to about -1.5 in the rear :)

If you meant another problem, which one?

Nope. That's what I meant. What coilovers were you thinking?

I will be supporting my friends over @ Eibach. MultiPro R2's most likely whenever I have the extra cash for them... (and they become available)

I'm glad I stumbled onto this thread. Tonight I picked up a pair of 14mm Eibach eccentric bolts from a friend for cheap. This gives me the option to use crash bolts up top if I really want later on. But I'm happy to hear that toe change is so minimal when adjusting camber as much as you guys are.

Could someone clarify for me that since I'm installing in the lower hole (instructions are for upper...but different car), I will orient the tab opposite the instructions? i.e. tab out for negative camber. I'm sure it'll make more sense when I get in there, just like to know ahead of time.

Tab in the opposite direction. It took me a while to convince myself. I also found that the small inner tab was bent to the outside just enough that I couldn't get it all together - it wouldn't fit in the strut hole. I bent the inner tab towards the inside just a hair and it went together right away.

Can anyone give me the part number for oem crashbolt? This is only for the front right?

I'm not sure if I will need them. Since I got the full ground control kit with camber plates and etc.

Not sure of the number, but the "crash bolt" is the lower 14mm strut bolt placed in the upper 16mm hole. With camber plates, the little gain you get from the bolt is likely to be useless.

do the crash bolts come stock with the BRZ? If so are they pre-installed or would they come in a plastic package along with the car?

Not included.

Just to make sure, are these the correct bolts needed to add camber?

http://i226.photobucket.com/albums/d...ps1ae663bc.jpg


And yeah, it's an old thread and stuff.

Looks right, but I don't know the actual part number offhand. I'm sure there's a thread on here with the service manual page.

But the diameter is right. Use that 14mm bolt in the upper 16mm hole and now there's wiggle room to adjust.

If you're doing this for stock autocross classing, right on. If not, take those back and just get a set of actual camber bolts (eccentric bolts). They will provide more range to adjust and be easier for a shop to set to a certain spec. I put mine in the lower hole so that I'd be pushing inwards slightly less and not worry as much about hitting the spring perch. Of course, now I'm on spacers so it's a moot point.

It's for C Street.

I've never changed alignment specs with a car before.

After installing these bolts, what do you tell the service shop when you bring the car in for alignment? Run as much negative camber as you can get out of the front and align the rear to OEM specs? Anything else?

I had them max out the camber bolts, run a bit of toe out in the front and a bit of toe out in the rear (1/8" total for each). That last part is personal preference, however I'd definitely recommend maxing out the camber bolts because it's still pretty mild.

What kind of increased wear have you seen with the Toe Out adjustments?

I read this on Tire Rack:

While I'd like to add Toe Out while I'm there, I'm concerned about tire wear as well.