oversteer and understeer
 

Hi guys:

for all BRZ and GR86 lovers. I watched many videos on how to overcome oversteer and understeer, but I really found these two videos to be the most informative and logical.

Please spend some time to watch them. IE: this does help in driving any car that could come to a potential problem (ex: snow slid)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7O-Z...TeichertRacing

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BdRx...TeichertRacing

Kinda reluctant to respond but...

All I wanna know is what the F is with this guy's hair? Is it like that on purpose?

Sweet merciful jeebus, just take your car to the track and wring it out. And forget this guy...

Practice

/endthread

For an expert like you guys might be irrelevant, but for me I learned few new things.

I did not even know what is oversteer/understeer till lately. and I think this video taught me a lot. Again this is for beginners. But from what I see is lots of experts also make mistakes and it is good to always learn.

Oh, that's Max from Track Titan, but before Track Titan :)

https://www.tracktitan.io/team
Max is a globally certified Porsche Instructor

I like the (newer) Track Titan videos.
More often than not they explain topics well, and in a very beginner-friendly fashion.
Sometimes they oversimplify things to the point of being incorrect
(such as "apex is the point of the lowest radius"), but those are relatively rare.

I also tried the Track Titan app to see if AI-driven coaching can be helpful in simracing.
My personal answer is "not yet", but I found their data visualization tool very helpful to
explain certain concepts to my beginner simracing friends.

Their weekly challenges are fun to participate in!

I know too many people who practiced the wrong thing for years.
Or even got themselves into trouble because they didn't understand
car dynamics well.

I haven't watched these specific videos, but based on my own experience,
I wish someone showed me some of the Track Titan videos much earlier.
Sure, a good coach at a good car control clinic will explain most of those things too.
Not everyone has the money to hire a good coach, and/or afford an extra CCC.

P.s. I don't think this discussion should be in the "2nd gens" subforum,
but might be interesting to continue in the "Tracking" subforum.

Thanks for this post! I think I may be very wrong here...

For sure different people learn *differently*!

I thought I knew everything before I did my first track event, and lo, I was very wrong... But for *me*, honestly I was hindered by some basic-level "instruction" including such gems as "Only brake in a straight line!" and "You're going too fast, you don't know how fast you're going!".

My advice would be to get out there and feel things out and not take *anything* as doctrine. It is a subtle art...

I don't disagree, but I've seen the flip side of this were they have overwhelmed themselves with info they don't fully understand and become confused. I think if you are interested in understanding car dynamics to this point time would be better served with a coach.

And the worst lie of all times,
Can't count how many instructors from reputable organizations said that in front of me.
It took me a while to learn the car dynamics in enough detail to understand
how misleading this "rope" analogy is.

Totally agree that anything should be sanity-checked.

Also true!
These should be a balance in theory and practice, and it's very individual.

What I find through talking with friends is a lack of understanding about the "why" behind techniques. They want to learn trail braking but don't know the "why" behind it. Even just braking technique in general. Managing weight transfer is largely understated.

Yuup.
And the "rope" analogy very much gets in the way here.

With 86cup in your area but I bet you see a lot of drivers grow quickly. Being able to talk with people on the same platform really helps. There has been a bit of a resurgence of twins in my area at the track but for a while it was getting slim.

Many... Many, many, many people are literally incapable of even asking the question, much less being able to develop a working mental model to fit the experience. I have with great sadness come to accept that as a simple fact of life.

Yeah but the few that do are fun to hang around :party0030:

just watch out for the ones trying to recruit you into a pyramid scheme.

lolol... :clap::clap::clap:


OMG that was a great laugh. :cheers:

Have you seen Going Faster It's dated but, IMHO, is still essential viewing.

Sim racing games help a lot if you can combine with seat time

OP- Always great to absorb whatever you can! Kudos that you are interested.

Just keep an eye out for a place to practice what you've seen on the video. Maybe an empty parking lot, or a cheap auto-x event or a safe on-ramp to a highway, etc. The point I'm making is that in an unplanned, surprise situation, you won't have time to think and will want to have your instincts take over and that requires some practice.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b7iUKaPlBl8

If you truly want to learn how to track a car, I have to 100% recommend a sim with a half decent rig and wheel. I learned to drift exclusively in sims and I can throw down pretty decently in real life.

It's unlimited seat time with no financial burden, time expenditure besides sitting there, or most importantly, risk. You can screw up endlessly and it won't do anything besides teach you what not to do.

I concur, I learned how to drift in the sim and it saved me a lot of beginner crashes when I tried doing it in real life. I also learned how to fly racing drones this way.

Just make sure you don't play Forza or something... Stick to well known simulators like Assetto Corsa (best for drifting/other driving besides circuit racing) or others like iRacing etc..

Yep, I use Assetto Corsa.

Honestly any wheel is fine too. Anything above a G27 will give you 60-80% of the "feel" of a real car IMO. All depends on setup as well. Running a custom LUT and good monitor make it a very viable option.

I like the videos. Now I know how to how to do better at Gran Turismo, but my drive to work is still this.

Yep
 

Ha ha, yep, my drive is different but similarly annoying. I have a 4.5 mile drive to work, with only a 1.7 mile section of nice curvy road. But I'm almost always behind some soccer-mom in an SUV or a contractor.

Good lord, contractors drive slow! Their boss must see them at the office, and then the customer hovers during the job, so maybe the drive to the customer is the only free time they get but good god they seem to drive slow. I mean plumbers, electricians, lawn-mowing services... they all drive ridiculously slow even for a van/pickup. :mad0259:

I found in the sim you’re using only sight for dealing with understeer, oversteer and drifting so it’s kind of deficit training for when you’re on the track and when you have butt feedback it’s easier.

Have you tried "butt kicker" in iRacing?
Not a full substitute, of course, but communicates some stuff.

I have a buttkicker and feel it only adds some "pizazz" for when my friends try my sim. Real game changer was going to a nice direct drive base and 8020 rig. FFB communication is so much better now.

I'll agree that you lose your butt dyno when learning on a sim, but I'll also note that two of the fastest alien drivers I know that went pro started on sim racing and largely credit that for why they're good.

I want to add that not having the proper butt feel helps you learn other senses more.
It's like blind people are better at hearing than people who see well, and don't rely on hearing as much during their daily life.

When you then get into a real car and get a new channel with useful information, that extra information makes you even faster (after some practice, perhaps).
That's anyways better than not having any prior experience at all, and getting overwhelmed by all the information at the same time, while paying your hard earned money for any mistake.

I'll echo what has been stated before. I learned to drift in Assetto Corsa, then purchased my BRZ and found that most of the skills translated over. I have to agree with you on the butt feedback. It's alot easier to feel the car oversteering and understeering in real life than a sim since I can only rely on wheel feedback and visuals in a sim.

For oversteer and understeer practice in real life, I usually just go to an empty parking lot after fresh snowfall and go to town. It's pretty easy to get the tail out at slow speeds and the risks are pretty low.

The other practice I have done was a rainy open track day. That's higher risk though as the speeds are higher and there are other drivers. But I definitely learned a lot more about car control beyond doing donuts in the parking lot.

Butt Kicker? No! Please elaborate Timur

Sim really helped me with my hand motion. When I started tracking I would "feed" the wheel all the time. It also really helps with my braking since I can see the brake force bar. Driving AC in the F2004 with no TC or ABS really helps smooth out the footwork.

I like this discussion. Was never crazy about wanting to get a proper sim steering wheel kit for gaming. But after reading the comments here, I'll be looking into getting a good setup! :)

That’s very true. Like I said, it gets you the basics for throttle control, line choice, braking zones, steering motion/quickness, etc. To go past that is difficult besides driving a real car.

I've been mulling it over for years! These guys are going to pull me over the edge. Dammit.

I'd say start out with the basics to find out if it's really for you. A decent mid range computer to run a modern sim would can cost anywhere from $500-$1000, a Logitech force feedback wheel $300 new or lower on the used market. That said, the sky is the limit in terms of gear. You can get direct drive wheels that have enough torque to damage your wrists in accidents, VR headsets for next level of immersion, and really fancy seats that will move and vibrate to simulate g forces. At that point I usually would draw the line and just take my car to the track.

I have had a pretty basic setup for close to close to a decade and haven't gone off the deep end since I got other hobbies but it's works great for just playing around and infinite track time is nice too.

It's not going to replace real driving for thrills, but as a training tool and for entertainment, it certainly scratches the itch.

Just be careful. It's just as slippery a slope as modding cars lol.

https://cdn1.bbcode0.com/uploads/202...88142-full.jpg

One of the best exercises on the sim is the "eyes up" drills. There are skidpads in both AC and iracing so those are fun also. Putting different cars on and seeing which ones can push the highest G's without losing traction. With many F1 drivers living on their sims that should speak volumes. I found that even a simple setup is acceptable.

Yea as the prior comment or stated, it can be a cheap endeavor. My wheel is an ancient G27 I’ve had for years. Computer is a pretty basic i7, Nvidia 1070 from a few years back. Whole setup could be easily had for less than $1000 not including a monitor.

Just make sure to not cheap out on pedals and get a force-sensitive brake pedal instead of position-sensitive.

To set clear expectations, don't expect to find a 3-pedal box that feels like a real car.
I have the Fanatec V3 inverted, and even after a lot of tweaking it doesn't feel like a real car with a clutch.

From Paradigm Shift Coaching:
BENEFITS OF SIM TRAINING
Having access to daily visual cue training is just one of the benefits of sim racing however. Even if a driver had nearly unlimited access to a real world track, I would still recommend sim training because it allows you to do things that are impractical or simply impossible in real life. For example, what if you want to work on your oversteer control? Most track organizers get pretty upset if you start spinning out on every other corner. In a simulator however, you can easily and quickly set up a car to be incredibly loose and then have unlimited tires to practice with on your own personal skidpad.

One of the least obvious, but probably most important aspects of sim training is the ability to set static conditions to accurately track your progress. Once you reach the skill level where you are searching for fractions of a second, it can be quite difficult in real life to gauge where the time differences are coming from. Am I half a second quicker today because I'm doing something better or is it the tires, track, weather, or any number of other variables? While most modern sims allow you to set varied weather and track states, they also allow you to set static conditions if you wish and they provide you with an absolutely identical car every time. My Spec Racer Ford was a "spec" car where driver skill and setup are emphasized, but eliminating all variations between cars in real life is simply impossible. Sim racing provides the only true spec racing where any improvement in your times can be traced directly to some aspect of your driving.

Seems ok for entry-level.