To buy or not to buy
 

I've been lurking on this forum for a few weeks now and am excited to hear what your thoughts are on a potential purchase. Im looking at a 2020 subaru BRZ with 12k miles, and the performance package. 29k. I test drove it last night and man did it ride on rails, however the torque dip was EXTREMELY evident, and i didnt get a chance to really bang through the first few gears since it was a test drive.

My biggest problem is giving up my extraordinarily reliable 2012 Jetta TDI with a tune, that also has 3 years left on emissions warranty, which paid for a new turbo and DPF just a few months ago. For anyone curious with the tune in at 180~whp and 350~wtq. Going from all this low end and mid range grunt to an engine i have to wring out would be a huge adjustment. Also i pulled 44mpg last tank.

I loved the way the BRZ handled when i was swerving like i was going through a slolam, however the big question is whether to buy this one, or wait a couple years for a 2nd gen with a performance package.

Also i live in denver colorado and am wondering, for those that daily these including in the winter, what your experience has been. This would be my first RWD vehicle that wasnt a truck.

My main question is, in your opinions, is the compromise in reliability, safety, comfort and efficiency worth it? Should I wait for the 2nd gen?

My Jetta "Feels" faster, and its impossible to complain about the torque, its just always there. Not to mention the TDI's reliability and extremely low cost of maintenance.

My plans for the BRZ include autocross, canyon carving and It would be my only vehicle so itd be a daily. I havent autocrossed my Jetta yet, cuz ive been so busy and broke until this year, but i did used to autocross my 02 golf tdi and that was a blast.

I know this topic has been covered before, im just curious what people have to say about my specific situation going from a tdi to a BRZ. Oh, the tdi is manual of course.

Nice BRZ. I like the metallic gray if that is the color you have pictured there. I have an older BRZ and am not clear on if the torque dip can be resolved with a tune. I realize that is not your question, but just throwing it in the mix for my own selfish reasons that I hope you will benefit from.

Wait for refresh

From a financial stand point, I suspect the gen1 value will drop with each subsequent month post gen2 release. Buy one if you want a sports car though. No sense waiting through life for the most opportune moment if you can afford the moment.

what compromise in reliability, safety, comfort and efficiency are you talking about?

the twins were at one point listed as the most reliable toyota & subaru with consumer reports. being NA, no gimmicks, no active safety, simpler tech, it has been overall a pretty reliable car for most folks.. besides no active safety equipment like auto emergency braking, the twins aren't more unsafe compared to other cars. a woman ran a red light going 55 and crashed into my first twin head on and i didn't get any injuries..there are quite a number of airbags for such a small car and front overlap has been tested as being very decent. may not be as comfortable as a truck, but compared to say miata/370z, the twins have a ton of wiggle room and the seats aren't extremely bolstered. and with the efficiency, i easily got near 40 mpg on the highway when i had an automatic twin and when i had a manual one if i was careful i could get it in the high 30s. i never had an issue with the amount of power but sounds like you might miss the torque out of your vw.

waiting for 2nd gen is a toss up. i sincerely doubt it will feel all that different from the current twins, just a touch extra power. still going to be considered a relatively low powered car that feels torque-less compared to any forced induction or some real displacement.. so up to you if you prefer the looks + a little extra tech in the new one. personally if I were in your shoes, I would at least wait for the 2nd gen to come out for used prices on first gens to come down before making a decision because if you're paying 29 K for a used car why not get a new twin..

Hi, wait 2-3 years and buy the next gen. Less torque dip and less depreciation if your Jetta is still in good shape...

Reliability, these TDI engines last passed 300k, in fact my golf i autocrossed had 310k and was still making decent times.

Safety, I just figured the Jetta would be safer, i really didnt do any research. Part of the Jettas selling point was how safe it is. I cant imagine a short sports car to be safer than it.

Efficiency I drive my jetta like i stole it most the time and still get 40+. Red line is about 4500 but power peaks at around 3800 so i never really come close to the rev limiter. I love chirping into 2nd lol

Comfort, My Jetta is WAY more comfortable, I had to fully extend the wheel back and up to not knock my knees. The BRZ's seats had an amazing amount of lumbar support though which was nice.

I didnt think about the fact that the 1st gens will depreciate more quickly when the 2nd gens come out thats a good point. I actually used that fact that the 2nd gen is being released to try and get the dealership to drop the price some.

Assuming i dont crash it, and nobody crashes into me itll still be in good shape in a few years. Im just not so sure ill have as much equity in it to trade it in by that time. Actually ill have the jetta paid off before then so maybe ill just have 2 cars but no garage to park either of them in LOL. That would probably be ideal anyway. ALso id miss the smell of diesel lmao

I hope they release a 2nd gen in this color, its always been my favorite. although a close second is definitely the Hakone edition green

silly to compare comfort to your jetta..you should be comparing to similar platforms, miata/370z/maybe mustang+camaro. if you're already looking at how uncomfortable the twins are, which to me the twins are quite comfortable for what they are, i'm not sure how much you're going to enjoy the platform. driving like you stole it means you're hitting the redline which you said you aren't lol. in the twins, refreshed or not and probably applicable to gen2, you are going to need to bring the revvs to 7000+... even if you get a header/tune/e85, if you're worried about torque, this will never feel like good ol' boost or displacement. you gotta have some notions thrown out the window first.

according to iihs 2012 jetta and frs/brz have same crash worthiness but the twins since newer were also subject to small overlap crash. this is a toyota/subaru, given their strong crash safety image and generally having the most iihs safety picks they aren't going to release an unsafe car.

your jetta ain't paid off? one at a time yo. idk if you've been living under a rock, but since covid has hit, all used cars have shot up in value. great time to be selling but just a terrible time if you're buying.

This is absolutely true and it's good that you are aware of that. As you had two TDIs in your past, you might be used to driving well below 4000 RPM all the time. That's not gonna work with the Twins (or any low displacement N/A engine built for high RPM power) - if you want a lot of go you have to keep the RPMs up. Will you be able to adjust to that different driving style? Only you can say.
Sadly there are no real alternatives to the Twins that will provide both the small, light, RWD, great handling platform that also has a turbocharged or large displacement engine. You might want to have a look if the turbocharged Camaro or Mustang float your boat, or even a used 370Z (all of which are much heavier but will offer a more similar engine experience to your TDI).

As for the specific car, I honestly wouldn't buy used for that price, unless you really can't wait at all for the next gen or for the used market to cool down. The value of your Jetta will go down, yes, but I doubt it will fall more than a used Twin once the market cools down. And why buy used for the price of new (yes, I know the new one isn't out yet, but Subaru dealers are taking orders already for the same $29,000 of your used example)?

You know rear wheel drive is dangerous. You'll just be doing doughnuts everywhere. And the torque dip is so bad you'll hit your head on the windshield constantly. Not to mention you'll have to rebuild the motor every time you go to the store. and safety...I've died 3 times driving my twin. And don't get me started on comfort. I didn't get the seat option. They are way more comfortable with seats.

I didnt mean to imply that the brz was uncomfortable, i was simply comparing it to my jetta which happens to be much more comfortable. The brz seat was nice enough.

I shift at 3800 or so because power falls off after that, if it held power to the 5k rev limiter (just checked my gauge and its 5k not 4.5), then i would definitely be wringing it out, its actually faster this way LOL for those interested https://www.forgemotorsportoverland....audi-2009-2014

Im really not that interested in any other cars, the miata is boring to me, is a mustang really a mustang without a v8?? the 350z is meh, and camaros are nice but not really what im looking for.

Im sure i could adjust to wringing it out and to all the other differences between my jetta and a brz.

Thank you all for your input so far. I think im going to hold off on buying this BRZ. Although i did get a great apr and trade in evaluation, i enjoy my car enough now that i mgiht as well wait for a chance to test drive a 2nd gen and/or wait for a special edition release i like, like ive seen other people mention they are going to do. I cant shake the feeling of how good it handled the swerving and lane changes i did LOL. But i guess i can wait to take one to some twisties to really get a feel for it.


Edit: i wrung the engine to 4900 on my way home since i hadnt in forever and its definitely faster shifting around 3800

Not a TDI, but I went from a turbocharged BMW (N20 engine) to the 86 and there are definite pluses and minuses.

The biggest minuses are definitely power related. First and foremost you are talking about a relatively low powered naturally aspirated vehicle at 5000 feet above sea level. So right there you are talking a 15% power decrease versus ratings. The mid torque really depends on you. Myself I love that I can wring the car out to 7K without getting myself in trouble. But if you really like that mid torque, you will miss it.

The positives are real simple... the car is plain and simply something that is fun to drive whether on the track or just in an everyday commute. With my BMW I risked a ticket anytime I had even a little bit of fun on city streets.

Another big positive is that it will make you a better driver. I tracked my BMW and could always lean on its added power to cover up my mistakes. You absolutely cannot do that in a twin. It will expose every error you make and force you to become better.

I haven't gone through a winter yet with mine (I'll actually be buying my snow tires in the relatively near future), but I was able to survive my first 5 years in Colorado with a RWD pickup on all-season tires just fine, so I'm not really concerned about it.

I skimmed through what people are saying, blah blah blah. I think the main reason you SHOULDN'T get this one, at least for now, is simply price. At 12K miles, that fully loaded BRZ still seems way too expensive. Go look for the thread where people used to post their purchase prices based on their trim and options. I got a Limited with PP and one of the optional packages for 26K with only 8 miles on it. This is a shit time to buy.

maybe you could talk them down, Idk

this thread has given you some negotiation points and you should make it seem like you are really on the fence about it

The Salesman called back last night and I said id take it if they dropped the price 2k, or else im just going to wait for the 2nd gen. I honestly doubt id buy it even if they dropped the price 2k at this point LOL

I know this is a speculative question, but how many years do you think it will take them to release another PP or start releasing special editions? How long after the first gen did they start to release them?

Also, is a PP good value for money? Or is the aftermarket usually less expensive, Including labor I have no place to work on my own vehicle and minimal tools for once in my life. (I used to fix and flip diesel trucks and hondas in Alaska. Was a rewarding side hustle)

iirc, the pp was only like a $5k increase. Brakes alone are about $3k for front only, backs are another $1500 new, not including install, and then it still got upgraded but non-adjustable dampers-- if you get serious, these would get swapped anyways, so hard to price that.

2 K less is still a shit price. If you're paying anything above $25 K even if it is for one with the PP, it seems much smarter just to fork up the extra money for a new one with a clean driving history because let's face it a good chunk of folks truly beat on these cars. Personally I wouldn't pay more than $20 K on a used twin. A clean 15 or 16 which had the highest reliability years according to CR, you can source most of the PP gear from a part out or just go aftermarket, plenty of good options out there. Only thing might need to watch for is the TOB but many folks have had their dealership change it out.

PP is super cheap if purchased as a package.

"The BRZ Performance Package is well-priced at just $1,195."

Stock or even aftermarket BBK for this car runs far greater than that, not including installation fees, etc. The PP is an absolute bargain.

Prices are sky high for the twins right now in the used market. It’s not an ideal time to buy one. But finding a low mileage one that hasn’t been crashed, modified, etc will become more difficult. There are still some new ones out there also, and honestly that’s probably the best way to go if you want a first gen. Or wait until used car prices return to earth and the second gen is out.
My advice is to wait for the second generation


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Keep in mind that while prices are high right now, your trade-in value is also going to be elevated. So there is a good chance that the net difference in cost now versus say a year ago is reasonably similar.

Personally if you are happy with the Jetta and don't expect any major costs (quite hard to know of course), I would probably hold off until this whole automotive industry mess subsides. But keep in mind that that could be as far off as 2023.

i genuinely believe it's going to be longer. i'm fully expecting the globe is going to go into full shutdown again this winter, due to our general non-response to covid.

but that's likely a debate for a different thread...

maybe even a different forum..

I spent more time picking out my last cell phone than I did deciding to buy a twin. I can respect wanting other's opinions but anyone else's opinion doesn't impact your wallet.

buying a car is like buying a laptop. As soon as you get it home it's obsolete. Within 12 months there will be a "better" one and your Jetta will have that much more depreciation. Don't get fooled by the numbers game. Our cars aren't worth more right now... the dollar is worth less. When the dollar rebounds cars will be cheaper and your trade will be worth less.

Check your budget and if you can afford it buy now. You cannot put a price on lost time with a twin.

if he's getting a loan for the remaining amount after trade, i'm pretty sure the bank can put a price on it!

Being that I am an old fart, I know that I am not the typical twin owner. But I will definitely say that being able to pay cash for it was a major factor in my opting for the 86 versus the other two options in my final three.

I don't understand your comment... surely you can pay cash for anything. Are you saying two out of your final three wouldn't accept cash for a car?

I would assume he didn't have enough cash for the other two options and would have had to take a loan to pay for them.

I had a designated amount of cash that was specifically allocated to go towards a new car. The 86 was the only model that I could pay cash for with this specifically allocated amount.

Now that was not the primary reason for getting the 86, and I easily could have afforded the other options. But certainly not having a loan was an added bonus of selecting the 86.

Kind of true. I had the cash to buy any of them outright, but I had set a specific amount that I had allocated to the car purchase.

Basically I bucketize my funds and could have made the choice to say raid my travel funds. But with the interest rate I was pre-approved for a small loan that I could pay off with my next bonus would have made more sense.

It's inexpensive, fun to drive, and loaded with just enough features to keep you happy. While the BRZ's good fuel economy and supportive seats make it great for commuting, it also proves to be a formidable track machine. Classic sports car styling gives you another reason to choose the new BRZ.

Also, easily customizable if you don't like something about it. Just takes adding more money, haha.