Why don't we get all the cool gizmos in the USA?
 

Ultimately, there's 2 reasons why we dont get to have nice things here in the USA.

1) We're too cheap. The top of the line BRZ, the BRZ S retails in Japan for 35,000 USD and the 86 GT retails for 37k USD. You also gotta remember that there's less room for haggling in Japan. And also, they actually have to ship these cars to the states. I think it started back in the day when Detroit had the advantage of being bigger and a stronger market share in the states. The only way the Japanese could undercut was to offer quality cars and they skimped on options because the market didn't demand them. Even today, you have people on this forum saying, I don't need HID, I don't need Auto Climate control. And Japanese cars don't quite have the cache of European models which can get away with added luxury at the additional cost premium. If every Japanese maker (and now the Koreans) are playing the game, Toyota and Subaru has to as well.

2) We're quick to modify stuff. I've been in Japan for the last 3 weeks (I'm Japanese/American) and I was speaking to a guy who has a Ducati with twin front brake discs and 4 piston calipers on each disc. He said that the USDM stuff always sucks because the manufacturers know we either aren't willing to pay for them or we'll just upgrade it because we're a DIY nation. In Japan, most people want a complete solution that doesn't need modding. You gotta realize most Japanese people don't even have garages, much less enclosed garages, even in Sapporo where I'm currently staying gets 20ft of snow annually, but only one of my friends here has a garage.

OTOH, those who do modify in Japan (which you see in magazines) are willing to go whole hog into modifying their cars. They make sacrifices to do so, and that's why they can get stripper RA models in Japan. The RA model in Japan goes for 25k and doesn't even have ventilated rear discs or rims!

Solution for Toyota and FHI:
Figure out what they can skimp on and what they need to splurge on to hit a bigger demographic here. That's why nothing as fancy as a GT Limited or BRZ S but nothing as stripped as a RC or BRZ RA. We do get 4 wheel ventilated discs on all our cars (only GT and S in Japan do), And LSD on all our cars (only the GT and S in Japan do), but we don't get leather speaker covers, red stitched knee pads or exhaust tips.

Hope that puts some perspective on things.

Not sure about that, there are tons of "modders" in Japan. That is why most of the good stuff comes from Japan. If that was true and nobody in Japan was into tuning why would there be so may tuners and manufacturers in Japan? Why make all your parts in Japan to send to the US or europe? materials are harder to get and more expensive and you have to ship out everything by boat or airmail to your customers?


They may not DIY or have garages, they do go to shops to have work done.

Apparently this guy didn't see 86 day in japan where it seemed 80% of the FRS/BRZ were modded...

Where do you come up with this stuff? :bonk:

When does "lack of money" become "cheapness" in your mind. It looks like you are having trouble distinguishing your character from that of all Americans. Most people in the US cannot afford to spend $10,000 for extra goodies on a $25,000 car. In case you have been sleeping, or playing Warcraft the last 20 years, Americans' income has not been growing. And since the very wealthy have vastly increased their share of national income, this means that middle-income Americans (FR-S buyers) share a significantly smaller piece of total income.

American buyers are not "cheap" - they lack money, and are no longer indulging in the fiction that credit card debt equals extra income.

Yeah, I disagree on both points.
My biggest issue with the FR-S is that it has a Scion badge on it. I would have loved to gotten the car as a Toyota and optioned the car up a bit.

Am I going to put HID's on my car? Yes I probably will, but in the long run it will probably cost me more than an factory option.

I think the reason they skimped out on options for North America is due to affordability for a younger target market. The Toyota 86 is aimed primarily towards males aged 35-49 making total household incomes of $150k AUD ($157k USD) per year (Source: page 13 of PDF).

Clearly, most Scion purchasers aren't making that kind of dough and as a result, many luxury options (HID, leather seats & panels, climate control switches, heated seats, etc.) had to be removed to keep the price point as low as possible without affecting its core sports car characteristics and performance features (ie. LSD, traction control, vented (larger) brake discs, 17" wheels, etc.)

I tend to agree with your points. Well-stated.

I would rephrase point #1 as "willingness to pay" though. Like another poster said, it's not necessarily true in every instance that the US market is too cheap, but rather cannot afford to pay for these things. So at the end of the day, the most financially prudent thing to do is to appeal to the lowest common denominator and find out where American shoppers draw the line to determine whether or not to buy.

Cost cutting ... Mazda removed the chrome trim rings off of NA Miatas to save money .. .seriously what did they cost Mazda? $1 or 2? ... but when you consider they built half a million of them, it adds up.

You wrote all that about the leather knee pads and exhaust tips? Compared to every other Japanese car I've seen they have kept the US model BRZ incredibly close to the JDM model. Ever looked at the difference beween USDM and JDM STIs? It is a stretch to even call it the same car. Generally all the goodies are kept just for Japan, but with the BRZ there really isn't much difference.

Cost-cutting is not the same thing as price-cutting. Cost-cutting for the consumer is when a firm takes a product and removes value, while selling it at the same price. That is not what Toyota did. Instead, they de-contented the vehicle in order to sell it at a lower price. The value is not necessarily effected.

When Mazda removed the chrome rings from the Miata, they may have removed value from the car. But that is hard to tell. The $2 they saved on the rings may have instead been used for better piston rings. Automakers are always juggling visible versus less visible content to establish the costs to make a vehicle.

In the case of Toyobaru FR-Z, it is pretty clear that there were extraordinary efforts to add real value to the car in less visible ways. For example the aluminum hood, the groundbreaking dual fuel injection system, 4 wheel vented disc brakes, the "pagoda roof" design, front seat construction, deerskin steering wheel cover, helical LSD. To set the market price they wanted, they clearly saved money on the center console, the stock radio and clock.

Well then count me in as one of those whom PREFERS regular HVAC controls over "climate " control systems and who really doesn't give a damn about HID's. If its there, great but won't make or break it for me and quite happy not to pay for.

The thing you have to wonder about Toyota in general is, how many smart men do you think they had sitting around a table in a room just to come up with the marketing for the car? There had to be some sort of meeting, or meetings, about what options, what car, and what badge to offer where. They made the best plan they could with what they had. You have to assume that Toyota is smart enough to know exactly what they need. They probably researched it pretty extensively. The scion, and the price point were probably the highest rated choices they had.

I'm with you. One of the few things to break down in my RSX was one of the sensors for the auto climate control. A manual system would have continued to work just fine.

I believe it's cheapness not lack of money, because Japan has always de-optioned their cars, not just for the FRS but ever since the 1960s when Japanese cars started making inroads into the USA. Also, if Toyota made a fully optioned 86/FRS, then people would complain and say, Why would you buy that? You should buy a 370z or Mustang GT!

Agreed. the USDM and JDM models BRZs are amazingly similar. That's why I opted to get a BRZ. But I don't get it, why didn't they add the leather stitched interior? It would add no more than 300 dollars to the price. Why did they give us the LED DRLs instead of making it optional like on all JDM models? Why does it cost 500 bucks more for a SWP in Japan and no paint premium in the USA?

Although the more recent STI versions have become more similar except for the difference in 2.5 vs. 2.0 liter engines. I'm having a hard time thinking of any major differences other than engine size between the JDM and USDM GR STIs?

Possibly, but why didn't they just offer a FR-S GT? And why does the BRZ have those options?

I never said nobody. In Japan people go whole hog into their hobbies, and are willing to pay a lot more for parts than we are in the states. These people are also willing to pay 25k for a 86rc which is essentially a white body to mod as they want to or a 38k 86GT + the costs for mods. When was the last time the USA offered a stripper model?

And this is anecdotal evidence, but there are a lot less modded cars in Tokyo than there were in the 2000s. One issue Japan is facing is that the youth don't see the purpose or have the money to buy cars.

ummm I don't get most of what you are saying, silly me I though we were talking about gizmos...

and FWIW, my base model M620 Ducati came with dual front 4 piston brakes...in the usa...just like all the others unless you specifically ordered a "mono-disco"

please try to atleast make your comparo's something that exists. (not to mention comparing japanese auto makers to italian bike makers while trying to claim europe and japan have different thought processes and perceived values)

Interesting thread.

As a big JDM guy, I can see the whole "Japanese pay more" thing. But with all the legendary tuners (HKS, Blitz, Amuse, Top Secret, etc.), I feel like the Japanese modify more than us. They just modify with quality parts from skilled artisans, where here people love "Bob's backyard tune specials" for cheap and shun the $3000 Ti exhausts.

I picked up some J-mags a few weeks ago in Tokyo, lot of big name tuners doing justice to this car. HKS with the supercharger, Amuse with the $4000 exhausts, etc. Japanese def. pay more for mods and are all about quality, but they modify no less than us.

I'm sure the market and what consumers in the US market value play a role too. In the US, much more so than Japan or Europe, everything is about horsepower. If the FT86 were over $30K, most people would compare them to the 370z, Mustang, Camaro, Solstice GXP, etc., and say it's not a good value. They have to price the car so that people feel like it is a fair value, so in order to do that they cut out some of the extra features.

Features schmeatures...I'll take my sports car as basic as I can get it.

I just want options. The most intelligent thing a manufacturer can do is make a car that is easy and affordable to customize or swap parts on. What I want to hear is, "You want HID/LED headlamps? No problem, we'll just pop that in for you. You want leather seats? No problem, we'll put those in for you. You want a navigation/phone/xm radio system? No problem, we'll install it for you. Just specify your options and we'll order the car or parts you want and have it ready in a few days or a few weeks. Otherwise, we have some various spec'ed cars on the showroom for you to take home tonight."

But instead it's like, "Here's the car, take it or leave it. BTW, we need to charge you $500 more for the ugly stickers we put on it." I remember when I worked at a car dealer, the other sales guys would often try to convince people they didn't need something and that really annoyed me. This is likely the most or second most expensive thing people buy in their lives and they use it every day so they should at least get what they want... anyway.

Problem is... they did. A good indicator is that neither Toyota nor Subaru can keep the car on their lots.

I would've like more options too (for example, if the Scion came with HID's, Nav and push start, I would've bought one) but as long as the car keeps selling as well as it is, there is no incentive for them to change.

That is the truth.

Only cars within this price range (Sub 30k) will do remarkably well in today's economy. People's wages fall way behind inflation, causing things that used to take a smaller percentage of one's income to take a considerably higher percentage.
Biggest offender? In my mind.. normalization of the global economy. But these are issues better left off this board. lol.

Precisely why those ideas were implemented into the FR-S, with the Alcantara, start button, heated seats, and Navi are in the BRZ.

Add those options and I think customers would walk away from Scion dealerships for an alternative choice. "A $30,000 Scion?"

The limited options and included features of the car were built purposely for the US market to target a specific price point for younger automotive enthusiasts and more experienced ones for modifications later.

There's a reason why LSD and 4 wheel ventilated discs are standard as opposed to non-performance oriented options such as alcantara seats, seat heaters, navigation system, push-button start, etc.

Did anyone ever think that the reason there is no multifunction steering wheel is because it'll likely be replaced by a quick-hub wheel of a smaller diameter?

People forget how expensive it is to put out an all new vehicle with an entire interior and exterior that is bespoke to the car, instead of crossing parts across the board like Mercedes Benz interiors from C-Class to S-Class or even the BMW 1M; from the M3 mirrors to the Z4 differential, etc.

Well, at least the FR-S can share parts with the BRZ and 86. ;)

Any car $25k+ really should have HID standard, but that's my opinion.

OP, I read your post
All I heard was
Then all I thought was
Attachment 16416
End of story.

I'm always confused by this arguement. Having options does not mean they can't offer a baseline model. If you want one without stuff, you can still get it. But for those that do want to pay more for options, they can also get what they want. It's not like they have to only offer one trim (although that seems to be the Scion way). This is how they do it in Japan and probably many places in the world.

In low production car like this having many options makes assembly process expensive. Buyers here want to get car of the lot the day they bought it, not waiting months when one is built on order. This again makes multiple trims or options difficult to achieve. And again everyone has a choice either get Scion or Subaru. Consider them as two trims of the same car.

Look, Apple always have only one model of iPhone in production, and nobody complains about lack of choice.

I am confused by this too. American cars used to be available with any combination of options the buyer wanted, European cars still are. Go check out the website for MINI or BMW. Toyota, Honda, Lexus, and Acura couldn't care less about what the customer wants. They're gonna build it "their way" come hell or high water. To add insult to injury, the stealerships are very quick to tell you what you "need" or "don't need". I'm surprised that the Japanese companies still let you pick the color you want.

Yeah, and no offense, but I think Apple fans are silly in that way. Many claimed we didn't need 4G until Apple finally decided to include it in their phones. As well as not needing a bigger screen size until Apple finally increased it with their new model. Etc... And look at how many people went to Android because of all the choices and customization! (Including myself)

Now I understand that many people don't really care about details. Americans are often impulse buyers and go off of emotions and they are impatient and want things immediately. So they will always get sales from them. But how much money will they be missing out on from those who are enthusiasts and who are picky about their cars and would like options?

But I do understand that it could take longer the way things are, and that's why I suggested they design cars to have the things like seats and headlamps easily swap-able. I don't see why it wouldn't work. It works for other car companies and it worked in the past. So surely there is a way Scion could make more money by doing so. Or at least give that project over to Toyota North America.

And lastly, the BRZ is different enough to not be considered the same car but with more options. I, as well as others, like everything about the Toyota models compared to the BRZ. Sure, the differences are small but they are enough to prevent me from buying a Subaru BRZ. Not to mention the fact that it's much harder to get a Subaru at the moment. But I admit that I keep toying with idea of just putting myself on the waiting list for a BRZ Limited.

People here complain about waiting a few weeks for their cars. If options were available, the car would be built to order. That would probably take even longer then the already long current wait times.

I would have bought the stripper if I lived in japan, I'm glad USA got a LSD and aluminum wheels for the same price. I for one am an American. I do not care about extra options, I care about price. Thats what this car is, a cheap rear drive sports car right? I got exactly what I wanted.

You don't say... and here I thought they always kept the good stuff away from us because they just hate us. :iono:

<<------- This guys wants the RA...BAD!! I've been reading about it for awhile...and would buy one in a Heartbeat!! Tomorrow!! I'm not kidding...

Come on Subaru...

Economies of scale.

It's different in Japan and the UK because the respective markets are much much smaller compared to the U.S., so it's easier to get more profit per car with the additional options and accessories.

Ever notice how expensive BMW, Mercedes, and Porsche get with all the detailed options? Even Lexus sells options in lump packages, and Acura practically includes everything and asks 3 questions; engine choice, transmission choice, Nav. That's pretty much it.

That allows the customer to have the most value for their purchase while the manufacturer can make the most profit at a respective price point.

god that last sentence is so stupid....apple offers the iphone in one spec only in the entire world! there's nothing lacking in the iphone here, vs other places, it's not even a comparable product to make such an argument:mad0259: if they (scion) offered the car, with all the options available for the 86 here, people wouldn't be bitching.

for you to understand, if they offered a gimped iphone here, say without retina display or touch screen options because they thought people in the U.S. were cheap.:lol: