Need Advice
 

Im going to try to make this short and simple. Im 16 and my father and I are trying to find something for me around 22k (price of my sisters vehicle) anytime I bring up 86/brz/frs and show him a picture he says that it is too fast since it is a sports car however he doesn’t understand that his Camry and truck is faster and would gap it. I think he only sees “sports car” and thinks 700 hp challenger. How do I explain that it is not as fast as it looks or should I just forget about it? I live in South Carolina where FWD isn’t a major Necessity with 50 degree winters. He hasn’t mentioned insurance at all so that’s why I’m not including it. I would understand his POV if he said no for the right reasons but a 86 is not a fast vehicle. Don’t mean to seem like a spoiled kid but I’m blessed to have a opinion and I want to explain that it is not what he says it is.

I sold my BRZ to a high-school kid. His father came and was worried too. But once he saw the car and drove it, he knew it was just not as fast as he thought and was a cool car kids want.

Maybe take him and ask him to test drive and try to tell him that Subaru makes one of the safest cars in the industry. It is just a two door coupe that looks fast!

Sent from my SM-N770F using Tapatalk

Thanks man. Will attempt that

Look for something that is safe (not saying the 86 isn't....stay with me here), but has some years and miles on it, needs some repairs, and is relatively easy to work on. Spend $3k-$5k on the car, and some more on tools and needed parts. Ask your Dad if you can put $5k of that $22k in the bank for the next year or two of repairs and operating costs, and anything left over in a good safe indexed mutual fund as a seed investment for your future.

Even if I was filthy rich, I would never buy one of my children a car worth $22k, especially a small low sports car like the 86, especially if they were 16, no matter how much I trusted them. Too much temptation, too little life experience, too much delusions of immortality, too little fully developed frontal cortex. Not your fault...just life and science. I helped all three of my sons woth their first cars...we worked an all three together, they learned to wrench, they loved their cars, and held on to them much longer than I would have thought because of the time and care they put into them.

I'm 60. My sons are all in their 30s now, all married, doing well, providing for themselves and their families, and one wrenches professionally albeit as an enjoyable side job (mostly Miata racing setups).

Just my opinion. The fact that an 86 is not a fast car by today's standards does not mean you won't find trouble with it. I'm with your Dad on this one.

Two door coupes look fast... Twins look faster still as they attract attention, attention = stupid driver behaviour...

I’ll echo this. The twins can still go fast enough to kill you when the RWD decides to teach your overconfidence a lesson. Nothing personal, but having been your age I know what it’s like. I’m not a big risk taker but if I had a lively RWD car back then I definitely would have crashed it.

My dad had a different approach than above. I had some money saved up and wanted to buy a 12-13Y/O BMW. My dad said I’ll double your money if you pick something AWD or FWD. I ended up with an AWD 1.8 turbo 6speed Audi. It was a fantastic first car. It was safe, handling was benign enough and smart enough to keep me in line, but still fun to drive, and it taught me to wrench on cars myself.

I’m with your dad too. A RWD car can bite no matter how much power it has, and us parents will do anything to keep our kids as safe as we can. I’d look for something AWD with a good online forum community. Then when you have more experience you could step into RWD.

Thanks for the thoughts. It’s not my first vehicle, I’ve been driving a older Honda Insight but it’s gotten to the point where it’s no longer reliable enough to daily.

Need Advice
 

Honestly if I was your age looking for a sub-22K car, this would be at the top of my list:

https://www.cars.com/vehicledetail/9...ff=share_other

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...fb73014dd5.jpg

I appreciate you taking my (our) words in the spirit in which they were intended. I became increasingly sensitized to these kinds of choices a few years back when an acquaintance of mine lent his Ferrari to his son a few days before his son's high school graduation. Very sadly, his son missed his high school graduation and the rest of his life, and my acquaintance no longer has a Ferrari or a son. His son was a great kid... not one you would think would drive stupidly. And yet.....

I do not necessarily share the opinion that RWD=bad first (or second in your case) car. Light rear end coupled with poor balance and/or tons of power... yes, VERY bad choice. Going back to my experiences with my sons, the first cars of choice were our old Toyota Celica (FWD with 220K on it but still in great shape and quite reliable... we did a full brake job, replaced the rusting gas tank, and all routine fluids and maintenance on it before transfering title) and two Volvo 240s purchased for $900 and $1200 respectively (RWD) that also received full fluid/belt/plugs/hoses plus needed repairs (intake gasket, exhaust manifold, motor mounts, breather tube, whatever we found). I live in the snow belt. The first thing I did with my kids, on maybe their second or third driving lesson, was to take them to a large snowy deserted parking lot and practice first steering into skids then doing controlled donuts. Well... maybe not their second lesson, but I did it early. I had to wrestle with teaching them something they should not do intentionally, or NOT teaching them something they needed to know to drive safely in bad roads and possibly save their lives. I erred on the side of safety and taught them how to do donuts and steer into skids. They learned to respect the constant possibility that a tire may lose traction, and learned how to recognize the feeling and what to do.

I, personally, find RWD much easier to drive safely in winter because, while it loses traction more frequently, it's also MUCH easier to correct. With FWD, if you get in trouble, you get in a LOT of trouble.

Yes, though, to echo Yoshoo's points... a powerful RWD car that swings out in the rear easily and suddenly is NOT a good idea for a young, enthusiastic driver. The 86 is not powerful, but if you turn off the nannies (and you know you will), when it lets loose, it lets loose fast. I thought I was pretty good with my e36, and could steer it wonderfully with the gas pedal. Compared to that car, the 86 kicks out MUCH faster and can get away from you unless you are right on top of it.

Make it to your graduation...to your wedding... to your first (and second... and third...) child's birth... to your Dad's advanced old age to be there for him as he is there now for you.

And actually, now that I've thought about, I've never spent $22k on a car, period. The most expensive car I've ever bought has been my FRS, at $17,500 with 23K on it, and I've been blessed to enjoy several Mercedes, BMW, Audi, Range Rover, Toyota (Celica and Land Cruiser), and many other "lesser" but still reliable and fun cars.

All the best, Craxel. A long, happy, exciting life to you!

I've been trying since first driving my mom's Citation, to put in words why the whole FWD thing is a myth borne from the very first pulls-through-the-corners propaganda in the, what, late 70s?


If FWD was superior, commercial and utility vehicles would all be built that way.

IMO a wrx is a much more dangerous car for a young kid than a twin. Enough power to get you I to lots of trouble and the false sense of security AWD gives

@Craxel

I think this car is fine to drive when you're young but there's a lot of things you might not know about owning and driving cars. I drove a Chevy truck and a Camry for 10 years before I got my BRZ. Owning the truck and Camry was a lot easier. I'll put the important bits:

- Insurance is expensive, unless you have special exemptions and/or perfect record that is established over years of good driving. Teenagers sometimes get quoted over $300/mo for their first car. You're best off with a 4-door car from 2005-2010 and establishing your record (and credit paying off a cheap car), then moving on when you can afford.

-Maintenance cost and the amount of time I had to go and research fixing and upgrading stuff on this car is something that I could not have handled easily when I was learning the basics of car ownership, and is still a burden even though I'm "an old". It's not just the frequent oil changes (that I do myself every few months). I had to learn about how to keep the car driving well after 100,000 miles (a BRZ drivetrain gets out of shape after lots of hard driving). I had to fix defective parts from the factory which sometimes cost a a lot out of pocket. I had to pay more for Premium gas. I had to keep good tires on the car. Otherwise the car would be pointless to drive because it would be janky.

-While a sturdy and reliable as a sports car, is not as tough as other everyday cars to stand against incidental damage. Every panel on this car is thin and lightweight. Parking lot dings, rock chips, vandalism. Potholes. I could not have handled parking this car at my first jobs or during my first years of college. It probably would not have survived the house parties and bars that I attended. Heck, your friends and family will accidentally scratch, scuff, or ding the car and then act like they did nothing wrong. My college roomate - first day of meeting him- put a huge ding in my Camry when we went for a fast-food run.

-Fun factor in this car is only something achieved in good conditions. A good road, good weather, no haters around, etc. You get bits of actualized good fun, great handling and engine sounds. But for the most part, the car is rough-driving and loud over normal roads while taking simple errands, it's too hot in the cabin, the interior has creaks or rattles. Or it feels like it underperforms when you're in normal traffic conditions surrounded by Camrys. It gets the attention of mega idiots who will sometimes do unsafe stuff around you, just because its an 86.

-Comfort and flexible transportation. The BRZ is the car for ME to drive around in. Nobody likes riding in my car unless we're driving buddies out on a mountain. My highschool and college girlfriends would have hated my BRZ. Contrast to when I owned my other cars, I drove lots of friends around in my cars, partied in the back of the longbed truck. I did lots of useful errands for people and without being bothered if my car got dirty, dinged, etc.

Some of this comes down to stuff I wish I had known before I got into it. I could have done things better during my long-term ownership of my BRZ. I could have picked a different car too though and probably been happier with a car thats easier to live with. But now I'm an old and have 3 vehicles (a BRZ, a truck, and a beater car) which gives me flexibility in getting around.

A good example to use, I used to talk in discord with a younger driver, 18 year old who just had a regular job, bought his '17 86 brand-new a few years ago and he can't afford to drive it. Not sure if he can even keep up with the car payments.

https://i.imgur.com/MXTZRIF.jpg

Thanks for taking the time to write this. I’m definitely gonna look at some other vehicle options.

i didn't want to hear it either, but 4 cars, 3 accidents, 1 totaled car, and a stereo theft later, i really wouldn't suggest a car over $10k for anyone under 25--i never had a car worth more than $5k till i was 23. it's going to get damaged, scraped, and bruised, if it makes it 5 years at all. at least half of it won't even be your fault.

i always liked having coupe cars through that time period, and my parents liked it knowing that the vehicles i had weren't physically capable of taking a whole lot of people anywhere. but coupes of any type are generally seen as sportier, no matter the reality, and do generally carry an insurance premium for it...

insurance is most expensive for 16-25 year old's by no coincidence.

an 86 is a great thing to aspire to later on once you get all the other stuff out of the way, it would even be a good secondary car for you and your dad to have fun on the weekends with. but the biggest complaint i have even as an owner of one is that it's a poor 'car'. it's got almost no trunk, the rear seats are for storage, not people, and if you really start romping on it, the gas tank size is abysmal. i've only been able to own it because i originally had access to other vehicles, and by myself, i've always owned a pickup truck in conjunction with the car. the car works for basic commuting, but even grocery shopping is a stretch...

also, with the car market now, it's a great time to sell anything, but a terrible time to buy. if you can limp the honda along for another year or two, the market will likely place you in a much better buying position to get more for your money than anyone really can right now. and it's a honda! it's really not going to lose anymore value than it already has.

All good input/advice from the other people here.

Just my 2c, what are your goals for the car? To mod it and learn about car maintenance? To learn how to drive this specific type of car (or manual)? Or maybe just because you simply love the car? All are valid reasons, but your pops set the budget pretty high for a first car and that to me seems like he wants you to get something newer, maintenance/trouble free, practical, and a car that can run a long while.

So I'd start from there, identify your goals for what a good first car is, identify what his goal is for an ideal car for his son, and then aim for a car that fits both criteria. If no such ideal car exist for both your criteria, then one of you will have to make compromises (probably you)

He set the limit at around 20k since he wants to match what he paid from my sisters car. He wants it to be safe mainly with a rear view camera and something reliable. He made me take a special drivers Ed class on top of other things even though that doesn’t replace experience he is expecting me to be safe. As far as plans on what I need is that I like the look of coupes. If I were to end up having a brz then I would mod it but with nothing engine wise. Just aesthetic and cosmetic changes. I also like the Mx-5 and fiat 124s but havnt thought that much about it.

Thanks for the input!

Totally none of my business, but you've got me curious. Would you be comfortable stating what car your Dad provided for your sister?

She drives a 2017 or 2018 rav4. Not sure what trim level

If it's a sporty coupe you are looking for a Scion tC may suit your needs. They are a little over half the HP of the BRZ but very responsive. They are also pretty insurance-friendly. I've had mine since 2008 and the only non-regular maintenance I've had is a dead TPMS sensor just a few months ago. You can pick one up for under 10K.

Speed is a function of power to weight,,, well for the most part. DO some computations on it.
86 2750/200 = 13.75
Supra 4001/382 = 10.4
C7 Vette 3300/460 = 7.1

insurance will be the main killer with this platform if you are under 25 years of age. I honestly scratch my head at all those younglings in my local 86/brz group when the topic of insurance comes up and find out they pay upwards of $250-$300/month to insure their cars! Insurance rates for these cars are likely high considering how many people end up wrecking them esp if you live in a place with snowy winters.

16 with an expensive twin seems a bit silly unless yall don't have money problems...I don't even want to know what the insurance costs, probably easily as much as a car payment. My first DD from 16 to 19 was a '92 240SX which we picked up for a few thousand and my kid's mom crashed it one day. Even if you've been driving, you're only 16 you don't have many miles on your experience odo so get something you'll be cool with parting away after a few years.. I plan on eventually giving my now 11 year old boy my twin but only after he's had a beater like a civic or corolla for a few years. My concerns with a twin for a very young driver would be the temptation to hoon without any regards for oher people, kids are too tunnel visioned and rarely notice everyone they are impacting, and the attention other drivers will give you for driving a sports car. People think I'm trying to race them all the time so imagine a young driver getting that attention on the road and potentially doing something silly. (go to YouTube and see all the fails with red light races)

At the end of the day, your dad is gonna be the one with the biggest undetstanding of what type of personality, driver, & human you are.. so perhaps he might see you as being incredibly responsible at 16. But even so, paying 22 K for a twin for a 16 year old seems quite steep, there are much cheaper twins and alternatives out there.

Yea we had a conversation about it again and i think I’ve switched it up from a brz/86/frs to a midsize truck or jeep. Especially with cheaper insurance and he’s onboard with it.

Don't forget the mandatory sticker.
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/e8/65...dd3af48b51.png

hmm you didn't have to totally kill the fun unless you would prefer interior room and utility if you can't get a twin :iono: plenty of cheap & relatively fun little beaters out there...civic & accord coupes, celicas, matrix/corolla xrs, tiburons, scion tc, 1st gen xb, rsx or pretty much any acura sedan, ms3, wrx, etc. right now with the suv/truck craze in both the used & new markets, looking at my local listings it seems like lots of used sedans, hatchbacks & coupes are undervalued so perhaps you could get a better deal. hell a few months ago i picked up a pt cruiser for 900 from CA and flipped it for double in AZ lol. lots of underappreciated cars out there :(

I agree with you. We had a kid in high school (1985/86) driving a DeLorean. Talk about no regard for other people. He was a chick magnet though.

A truck is at the back of my list however I do like the look of jeeps. Only certain twins I like because I could care less if it isn’t fast but something aesthetically pleasing and that’s something different for every person. Probably one of the only hatchbacks I somewhat liked was a type r but that’s $$$.

Find a used Taco (Toyota Tacoma).GREAT small truck. Put a roof top tent on top of the bed. Let the fun begin!

that's going to be $10k minimum for a 20 year old truck with 180k+ miles, and 2wd. really. the toyota tax is real.

rangers are much, much cheaper(same condition will run about 2-8k depending on features/year), and just as reliable. i recommend a 1998-2011. nearly all of the parts are the same across those years, so replacements are plentiful everywhere and anywhere that sells vehicle parts.

main things to watch for in either vehicle is bed rot at the section closest to the cab, and frame rot--around the rear by the bed, as well as the center front core section between the front a-arms. rangers also had a very common issue where the rear leaf spring supports would rot out after about 5-8 years.

the first vehicle my parents let me use was a ranger. just a 2wd single cab, but it survived jumps, mudding, 3 accidents, and 4 teenage drivers before my dad finally got bored with it and traded it for an f-150 for himself. liked it so much, i got my own. just recently sold it off to get a '18 tacoma actually ;)

Just want to add my 2¢ here. I just recently got my FRS, and while I do love it, it's not the car I drive most often. My girlfriend hates riding in it, it's loud inside, the ride is harsh, and I never want to take it on long road trips, nor daily daily duties/grocery trips. It makes an amazing car for weekend fun drives on dry sunny days. I love it as a second car, but would hate it as an only car.

That being said, life's short, get what you want. Drive one and see if it's for you. These cars are awesome, and I think that's why the people in this forum bought one. If you like twisty mountain roads, maybe autocross, car meets, any mod you can think of, this car is a solid choice.

The other people in this thread make great points, and there are definitely reasons not to get it. They're speaking from life experience and it seems like they think you're going to crash it, or at least have to opportunity to make worse mistakes than you would with something else. The cars from my teenage years certainly did not make it out unscathed lol. Good luck picking a car, and if you do get an 86, welcome to the club!

Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk