Why did I wait so long to try the pedal dance
 

Well I finally tried the pedal dance last night at my little local kart track where they host time attack. Think Autocross due to low speeds but still a challenge to get good lap times. Anyways what have I been missing all this time. in my 13 it has the more aggressive nannies vs the later 17's and on. The car just felt smoother to drive. Also my runs were much more consistent. One thing to warn is the car becomes much more happy to swing that rear end out ;) thus you better be ready to catch the rear end. I will continue to practice to prepare for larger tracks and the pedal dance.

have you tried to compare this at all to pulling the traction/abs fuse?

scared to do that :scared0016:

People are funny. What's scary about driving a car built before ABS was a thing? Oooooo!...

Maybe I will try this in a few events at the same track. Nothing bad can really happen there. Link on how to do this?

I believe the abs fuse is needed for biasing, otherwise the system will lock a wheel with a random amount of pedal pressure.

@NoHaveMSG had it happen I believe with some other warning lights


If it was only the t/c and abs systems it took out, I'm all for pulling the fuse

I haven't had it drop into ice mode. I have had the EBD miss behave trail braking hard into a corner using the long press. @ZDan has pulled the abs fuse on track. I don't believe he had any issues.

I remembered something about bias but wasn't sure.

Long press is for shit. It still pulls throttle, and intervenes as you've noticed.

Long press is what I consider good enough for extreme street driving. But now after learning of ice mode, I wouldn't trust the entire system enough to leave it active in a track setting. Too many variables at the wrong time to have to deal with

Yeah, it is pretty bad on the pre facelift cars. Trac box was a great investment. No waiting for engine temps, just flip the switch and it's ready to rock.

I really need to get one. I'm too fucking minimalist. ...ok, cheap. I'm too fucking cheap.

Well, to play devil's advocate, nothing is scary about driving a car before ABS/Traction Control, primarily because they were designed without it. I'd be a little cautious in a modern car because it's very likely there was a tendency of the designers to lean on the computer more than they should. Maybe not in a sports car, but definitely in other genres.

Yeah, I pulled the fuse at Watkins Glen last year due to ABS going psycho. It worked fine for me there at "normal" ambient temps. Was also fine most of next event at Palmer with much cooler ambient temps, but I did flatspot a front Hoosier on cold tires and (mismatched f/r) brake pads which cost me big-time in the TT as I had to run street tires :cry: That was with CSG Spec2 front and Winmax W5 rear pads. This year I'm on CSG Spec2 front/rear which are better-balanced throughout cold-hot temps.

I do think running without ABS is costing me a bit of time as I can't SLAM on the brakes as late, have to *squeeeze* on them a little earlier. Probably no more than a tenth or two but I *need* that (2nd last event by less than a tenth). At some point I'll go ABS again but as it is I can't trust my unit at 10/10ths at the track.

IMO the (17+ anyway) stock ABS performs GREAT at the track with the long-hold on the TCS button. I believe earlier models require pedal dance vs. long-hold. Not sure if earlier models would benefit at the track from pulling the 40A ABS fuse but I'd bet most would be reliably faster with pedal dance and with ABS.

You just pull the bigger 40A abs fuse. But IMO there is no good reason to do this vs. pedal-dance unless you specifically want to develop threshold braking skillz without ABS and don't care about occasional lockups and generally doing slightly slower lap times.

I think you might be referring to my experience. *WITH* abs fuse in, with the long-hold on the TC button (which has worked GREAT for me with my '17+ over the years), I had issues my 1st session of the event at Watkins Glen last year. I got what felt like biasing/over-working of the outside (left) front going into turn 1 (right-hander) for a couple of laps then noticed ABS and TC lights on going down the straight after the esses. I backed off a little bit going into turn 6 (fast-entry downhill left-hander) but the front left *instantly* locked HARD when I got on the brakes. Tried to modulate but ABS kept locking the left front. I could not get rid of speed and front-left lockups pulled me off to track right before I even got to turn-in. Hit guardrail with [edit] right front bumper/fender (doh). Car was still driveable and I took it out taking it really really SUPER-easy, and the problem repeated itself. OK for a lap or so, then lights came on and at the next braking zone I'd get hard asymmetrical front lockups, it was CRAZY. It did it with the pedal dance as well. Friend with software found "yaw sensor error" codes. I could tell the ABS wasn't just "ABSing" but was actively applying massive pressure to the front left after the warning lights came on. I reasoned that pulling the big fuse that powered the pump should fix it and it did. But no more ABS of course...

I never get the warning lights on the street with the fuse in, haven't tried for enough laps to know for sure at other tracks but too scared to do so. I probably will ultimately just replace the whole ABS brains with new, but $1500 or so... For now I leave the fuse in on the street and pull it at the track.

Thanks for the input. Will just stick with the pedal dance for now [emoji1787]

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Ah, yes, but here's the rub. They should all be designed fail safe. I can't imagine a design passing scrutiny otherwise. That being said, yeah. There are some epic blunders. Looking at you, Boeing. Shame, shame...

I would agree with your advocacy statement if we changed it to "unlikely but real possibility that the designers got it wrong."

Legitimate LOL @ "Think Autocross.... but still a challenge".

Hey gotta get my fix somewhere during the summer. Shit is way to hot now

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I'm just glad you finally came to the dark side!

Alright peeps. Please clear this up for me.

I thought I read that ICE mode was an occasional problem WITH using pedal dance, and NOT an issue when using the long press.

Which is it? I've always long pressed and never had ice mode. I've shied away from pedal dance for fear of ice mode, plus long press has never intervened in at any time when the run wasn't gone to shit anyway.

That was my understanding, as well.

With that said, I see no reason to not use the long press. Any interference that I've gotten wasn't particularly unwelcome. Like if my wrists are crossed and I have the inside rear wheel hiked up in the air, I probably don't need more throttle in that given split second.

I have no experience with this, but do have some experience with programming.

If the code kicks in during the least intrusive mode (pedal dance) it would seem to me it would kick in in pretty much any mode. I suppose the long press could leave a case that becomes active in before ice mode, that is absent from the pedal dance, but that seems unlikely.

Just a thought.

Ice mode is baked into the ABS firmware. The only way to disable it is by pulling the ABS fuse. With any normal driver-selectable VSC mode, the ECU listens to the ABS module. With pedal dance, ABS still works but only as an independent (old-school) system. The rest of the car doesn't listen to it. No throttle pull or EBD because no yaw gyro signal.

Ice mode is more prevalent during pedal dance because you're switching the ABS to single channel mode, it's dumber and reacts in a 'safe mode' when it thinks you're on ice. Ice mode does exist in all the other ABS modes, but the ABS is acting more intelligently so the threshold for ice is much more accurate. I've never felt ice mode in a standard mode, but I have activated it multiple times during pedal dance.

I found I could brake around the potential ice mode with a more progressive braking application but found no extra speed vs the regular 5s tc off button press. The lack of electronic brake biasing does allow for more weight transfer and turn in rotation but my car is generally set up to not need that and the auto-lsd feature doesn't slow me down, I can feel it, but that's only when I'm doing dumb things. Note this is autox experience, would probably re-evaluate if I get back into track because everything is a sweeper.

I mean, I CAN get ICE mode with the long press. But it generally isn't something that happens unless I screw up.

My understanding with the pedal dance is that ICE mode happens with a much greater frequency, at least in an autocross setting.

OK, then it sounds to me like the long press leaves something in play that kicks in before ice mode, but the pedal dance negates it so it falls through to ice mode.

Can you share some more about this single-channel mode? You have my attention.

Can't believe anyone is driving these cars with the nannies still on. These are such excellent, communicative, and easy to control vehicles.

How the heck are you guys getting ice mode so often?

Not new info, it's buried in here somewhere, goes with the turning off of EBD (electronic brakeforce distribution)
https://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=25494

Easiest to feel when braking mid corner, which you shouldn't be doing but with pedal dance the car senses the light front wheel and reduces braking pressure around the grip of the light front wheel meaning you're basically not braking at all. The single channel mode I mean is that it acts like ABS from the '80s where it reacts to the wheel that's locking and reduces brake pressure across the system to get grip back to that wheel.
Without pedal dance it's computing wheel speeds at all four corners and eases up on the brake pressure on the light front wheel while still allowing the other 2-3 loaded wheels to slow the car down, real useful when you fuck up and want to pull your line in tighter.

I have only experienced it with the pedal dance and an extremely aggressive brake application. If you're gentle in getting on the brakes or I should say, not a fucking idiot jamming on the brakes like I was it will almost never happen. You're basically shocking the tires and the dumb pedal dance mode can't tell the difference between that and ice, the regular ABS/EBD can. This is in autox, not on the street, I'm not dumb enough to think I can outbrake the computer.

/imho

I have yet to have it happen on track in 5-6 years :iono:

Go find a slick bumpy surface. Get up to about 60 mph, then turn the car right as hard as you can, then turn left as hard as you can while slowing down to about 18 mph. And try to do it better than hundreds of other people.

You might get ice mode every 30 to 50 attempts.

That is more the answer that I was looking for. It sounds like AutoX puts you in situations where it is more likely to trigger it.

For me it was 1:1 with trying to break the brake pedal, regardless of pavement or suspension loading.

Absolutely. Mitigating ice mode (or brake lockup in non-ABS cars) is a pretty integral part of the autocross skillset.

...and I think that is why the bulk of "serious" autocrossers in twins don't seem to mess with the pedal dance.

This is a good point. As I was reading that I was like "uh what track are you driving that has you doing that maneuver". Make sense why I haven't had that happen in my 20-30 track days using the long press method (I don't autoX anymore).

Not there but that's ok. I'm not trying to put you on the spot. I get what you mean about per-wheel vs whole car.