Prepare FA20 for Turbo?
 

I've been looking into getting my 2013 BRZ boosted with a Greddy turbo as well as ITB's. Similar set-ups have shown ~300WHP. I'm new to modding cars, so I'm curious as to what kind of upgrades I'll need to prep the car. So far I've heard new rods, injectors and oil coolers are a must-have.

sorry if something like this has already been posted, not really good at using forums.

I've been making that for 4 years come July 4th(2017) without upgraded rods but it's nice if you want the peace of mind I guess.I also daily drive my car with 0w40 Castrol Edge, jdl oil cooler, radium catch can, vented varis hood, p3 boost guage plus and full exhaust 2.5 OD.

A spare engine

I would do much more research before you do anything. Greddy turbo kit (if you can find one) and ITBs(not worth it), you are already $7k-8K in with just the basic hardware.

Why does everyone think the engine will explode with less than 300hp. People post when they have issues, not when everything is going well.

I think the comment is meant as have funds available for a new engine.
Just prudent planning.

Ahhh okay. I’m sensitive today

First off there is no magic number. The "300HP"gets bantered around so much that I think people somehow believe it is somehow a cut off point. It isn't. They have blown up well under and over 300HP. It is a pet peeve of mine that people always target 300 anyway. Are you trying to improve performance or are you trying to get numbers that impress your buddies at the meet? What is wrong with 250, 270, or 290? why do you feel you need to almost double the WHP on a daily driven street car?

Now as far as blown engines go my mantra is usually, as you said, that we hear of bad but not good. The thing with the FI failures is we have heard of so so many failures that I run counter to my normal thoughts and believe it is indeed an issue. I don't however believe that all the failures were by the FI per se but more with poor installation, bad tunes, cheap products and yes misdriving. The engine has proven it can take boost to a limit when all is good but it does have it's know issues that are magnified once you throw boost at it. We know there are oiling issues (yes even before the recall work) that usually don't get addressed beyond slapping a cooler on them. Heat management is very important but a lot of the things you can do to vent the bay are only good if you live in Socal or Arizona so it get's ignored. The car and engine simply are not in any way designed to be boosted and that will always be a challenge no matter what parts you throw in the block.
All in all the people warning about possible problems are right. As soon as you change any engine component you increase the RISK of something happening and this reduces the reliability. If it is your second or third car and you accept the increased risk and are not going to be stranded if it does die then knock yourself out and boost to the level you want. If you need a reliable and always available transport to trundle you back and forth to work and have the occasional fun run on the twisties or track then the less you change it the better off you will be. It all comes down to understanding and accepting the risk.

Understood. But there is varying degrees of risk that happen in proportion to the amount of boost. Personally it feels like people here are very anti-boost outside the FI sub-forum. Any mention of FI is met with “get a new engine ready.” That said, your post at least acknowledges you can be somewhat intelligent about it. Yes the car will die sooner. The reason I mention less than 300hp is because that’s about 250whp, which isn’t full-stupid mode (for anecdotes I’ve read).

I’ve read a lot of logs on here, other forums, Reddit, and the people with the most issues push waaay more boost or track with boost.

Reading here, I had the impression if I used ANY FI my motor would explode into a million pieces within 100 miles.

It may not die sooner though. You just increased the risk of it doing so. I have spent 30 years in a career that relies heavily on risk analysis to protect people and assets s and when you look at the likelihood and consequence of these failures it is actually a more extreme risk that some think

A very simplified example would be if the probability is only moderate the results are almost catastrophic so...

https://backlog.com/wp-blog-app/uplo...ed-image-0.png

At least half of the people that have said "get a new engine ready" in this thread are speaking from experience. They aren't talking out of their ass they have already been there.
This is not a great engine for boost. Any boost. It is just the way it is and people need to be aware of it to make informed decisions. If it comes off as antiboost that is unfortunate but there is a shitoad of experience behind those cautions.

Prepare FA20 for Turbo?
 

I don't think most of the forum is anti-boost. I think it has more to do with the majority tend to enjoy the car for what it is. A large part of the forum drive lightly modded cars to begin with and the at-large community is even more stock. FI is a pretty big mod.



Personally I can't bring myself to go FI, I enjoy the "momentum" car spirit of the platform. I even had a turbo kit at one point and ended up selling it. It just isn't for me.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...f86674d413.jpg

Thank you for this. And I would LOVE for people that have had issues to provide that information on their setup so we can all learn how to mitagate risk better (if possible). The first response was someone with a great experience and listed his support mods to provide some detail. The other post (possibly with experience; I do not know) just says “replacement engine.” That doesn’t do anything to further the conversation or collective wisdom of the group. My hope would be to get away from that.

Your post is great and I might steal that chart for some other areas in my life - like dating red headed hair dressers.

See this is useful (meme and all)! And I agree, the spirit of the car is great and I would not want to mess that up. I have a SC on the way, so maybe I am validating myself a bit here. My personal gripe with my car is it’s so slow even on back roads with a slight hill and a stop sign. I just want a *little more (already have header and tune). But hey, I could have bought a V6 or something but I wanted this one. Maybe I am a parent upset my kid isn’t a doctor haha

The car is already ready for boost. You do not need a spare engine but you do need the finances to cover mistakes and unforeseen issues. You also should have an alternate method of transportation. This will give you time if you run into problems to fix correctly and not worry about getting it done. The engines that blow due to boost are mostly going to be due to shitty install, shitty tune, Abuse. Or any combination of the above.

In my opinion ITB’s are cool, but a complete waste on a turbo FA20.

You will be fine as long as you are reasonable about it. You can always go back to NA if you decide it is not your cup of tea.

I'll tell you, a good header and tune wakes these cars up. I just don't see the need to go FI with all the potential costs and issues and never getting your money back on selling. I'd just get a Cayman if you need more than what the header|tune offers.

So unfortunately I think most people got the wrong impression with this post, or just didn’t answer the question at all (but not everyone). Not looking for answers like “it depends, some cars are fine others aren’t” because that’s just stupid. I’m trying to be well prepared for it and have everything decently reliable. I do have a second car which I use along side my brz, but I still want to be able to drive it(BRZ) often.

I am more than aware that this car is not designed to have FI, which is exactly why I’m asking what options I have to make it work. I am not looking for crazy boost levels or even reaching the 300whp range, I just feel that the car could use a bit more power. I have the money to spend on professional installs and engine rebuilds if I become overwhelmed, all I care about is doing it with the smallest risk of an engine blowing.

Thanks for the info, I’m more than happy to explore alternative methods to getting a power increase with this car. I don’t have any attachment to idea of FI, it just seems like the popular method to getting power gains.

One of the few useful replies I got, thanks for the info.

I am aware of the price of these products. You telling me to do more research is exactly what I’m doing right now by asking on these forums. I have talked to many brz owners both with and without FI, and have gotten mixed responses. I was hoping to get an actual answer to the question, and not whatever this was supposed to be...

The best thing to do is find an installer and tuner you can work with, let them know your goals, and work forward from there. And when I say "goals" not just the power level you may be shooting for, but what you intend to do with the car. Otherwise you are just going to get the shotgun approach when it comes to suggestions. You can go through the FI section and get an idea of what you may need, but there are a lot more pieces to the puzzle then just buying parts and slapping it together.

You somehow managed to write an entire essay without answering the question. I do not care about the numbers whatsoever, that is simply the number that Greddy got with a dyno test. I included it as a rough estimate so people knew what sort of power output it would make.

I have seen many people with turbo BRZs that last over 5 years and counting, so I was simply asking what the best way to prepare the car was. I may not be mechanically inclined, but I do now how to drive a car without destroying it. I frankly couldn’t care about what your (or anyone’s) personal opinion of FI, just what kind of upgrades the car could use to increase its longevity.

You finished your post with “it all comes down to understanding and accepting the risk”. Yes, I am more than aware of the risk of overpowering an engine, which is why I’m asking on here for some pointers towards preventing that...

Don't get snippy.
If you can look beyond yourself for a second you will notice that I was discussing a comment made by another member. The HP and other statements were made in response to what he said. Nobody was even pointing at you.
There is no answer to your question. Some things worked for some and failed totally for others. You say you know some that lasted 5 years. Well that is cool there are many that didn't last 5 days. Hell there are some that blew up on the dyno and never even hit the street. No magic bolt on parts exist that will prevent it.
I addressed your question by pointing out there is already a whole section on this if you bothered to just go read it instead of being about the ten thousandth person to ask the same question and expecting immediate and complete spoon feeding on how to do it.

BINGO!
That isn't going to change by asking here.

My mistake, I am new to the forum environment and thought this was a response to my post.

No problem. Word of warning though on this (and most forums) you don't bite the hand that feeds you. Snarky responses to people answering, even if you don't like the answer will quickly lead to no answers. Or worse yet answers from the people with the same attitude that don't have a clue what they are talking about.
You WILL get jokes, opinions, and comments that don't seem to relate but that is the nature of the forum community.
This ain't Facebook, Reddit or Instagram.

There isn't really a recipe. Any changes induce risk of improper installation, leaking vital fluids like coolant or oil.
Even if an amazing shop does the install, you still have the risk of part failure.
The air filter might start coming apart and the turbo sends it into the intake. Maybe you hit a bump and your oil return line from the turbo comes loose, bleeding your oil supply dry in a few minutes?
Maybe the af/r gauge the shop is using hasn't been calibrated in a while, and 11.3:1 is actually 12:1?
It's a gamble no matter how it's done. You can be the most talented person in the world, but material defect still applies to you.

If you insist on being turbocharged, get a basic kit, ECUTEK, run wastegate pressure on the turbo the kit comes with at no added cost, and figure out what you need from there.

People are so pre-occupied with preventing failure, that they don't realize adding more unnecessary variables can do more harm than good.

Never noticed you linked your build! I’m reading it now and loving it….I feel inspired to start a slush fund for an IAG stage 1 short block.

GReddy discontinued their turbo kits in North America because of knockoffs manufactures. (If you can find one, great)
ITBs make install and tuning even more challenging for little gain and should be run with a standalone ECU in order to be fully optimized. (Not really worth it, but if you love a challenge..) I've only seen two guys with the aforementioned combo. One is sponsored by GReddy and the other sold his car off in a give away last year.
This response was in reference to the parts you mentioned in the first post of the topic you created here with added clarity.

Apart from that an oil cooler and possibly up-rated clutch will aid in reliability and not doing things twice.

Also we have an entire sub-forum about FI https://www.ft86club.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=78

Yes but no.
Even on e85 sure it’s a lot better than stock but there’s no ‘wow factor’ I was enjoying my little power increase until I had a ride in my friends Evo 8 tuned for 260kw at the wheels and the boost sensation you get isn’t comparable.

Now I wouldn’t want my 86 to be the same as it’s my daily, but something like a supercharger is extremely appealing just to give it that bit of something. I know I could ‘get another car’ but appearance wise for me there is nothing else that comes close to the 86 for me in my budget.

So I definitely see the appeal of boosting

just so you know the potential financial and mechanical repercussions with these cars when going FI. The less power you add with an SC the less headaches you’ll have down the road. A lot depends on how you drive the car also.

I wouldn't go boosted unless I had money in the bank to replace a blown motor immediately.

10-15k on hand to dabble in boost. 6-10k to get everything set up and another 5k for insurance if it explodes on the maiden voyage.

And $3k for a beater to commute in for "downtime!"

It's the compression ratio for me... I'm not going to make any friends saying this but, generically speaking, starting a FI build with a 12.5:1 compression ratio is all kinds of wonky. Obviously it can be done, as is done on a regular basis, with the tradeoff being the amount of boost that can be safely run and the total power post installation. If you won a weeklong pass to Toretto's Garage, you'd start with 8.5:1 all day everyday.

In my humble opinion, our 12.5:1 starting point is why there is such a variety pack of endings. I'm in no way suggesting the OP doesn't go FI; however, I do think that @DarkPira7e 's build should be required reading and is the most accurate non-fiction/no B.S. story of going FI I've seen. And he's absolutely correct in saying that there isn't just one recipe but for sure a key ingredient of his build is the new lower compression IAG block. If you feel like you can follow along his path then I would go for it.

Starting from scratch with 8.5:1 and FI is a simpler mathematical equation with greater odds of getting consistent results that can be replicated. Starting with 12.5:1 and adding FI is a matter of playing both ends against the middle and some are better at it than others.

I went the supercharger route, but the risks/benefits are not too dis-similar.

The main issue to keep in mind is that (I'm assuming?) you are starting the process with an already old/worn engine.
Ideally starting with a near new, or perhaps a "refreshed" engine, gives you a more optimal base to start from. I started with a new car that I fitted the SC onto immediately after its "run in" process.

I kept the pulley (boost) at the recommended and conservative size, for the standard engine.
I focussed on engine cooling with uprated radiator and fans, and oil cooling with an additional fan cooled oil cooler.

A skilled tuner is critical... who isn't obsessed with peak power outputs.

But people also overlook the simple (and boring) factors which can give you a fighting chance for reasonable reliability:

* Use top quality fluids and filters, especially oil... spare no expense.
* Change the engine oil, and filter, very regularly ( I change both every 5000km/3000miles).
* Use only premium and high quality fuel.
* Thoroughly and gently warm the car up to temperature... every time you drive it. (and employ a cool down routine too).

** Be engaged with the car, lift the bonnet regularly, drive it hard but be gentle, have mechanical sympathy.

I had around 35000km/21000miles of %100 trouble free fun.

But then I pulled the engine out, stripped it down for inspection (the engine builder said it was still like new inside) before fitting a new "fully built" low compression IAG based engine in order to chase reasonably big power, which meant an absolute truck load of money, time and effort... in order to keep a degree of reliability and drivability.

The FA20 is simply not one of the great engines (if only Toyota and Honda had teamed up to design and supply the engine...) but, BRZ is a lot more fun and playful with a reasonable/moderate power increase to exploit its layout/chassis.

THIS ^ THIS^ THIS^ All day long THIS^

Love the wording on this - you and I have (had; now that you went built) very similar power goals.