Does non-structural damage to unibody even matter?...
 

So I see a lot of people demonizing unibody damage saying that "bruh this car will never feel the same" and stuff but then I see people racing BRZ who do crap like this:

http://lapsio.lapsio.dev/public/inet/brz/c.png

And it makes me think... what the hell? Isn't it like... people who are racing BRZ's are actually literally the only ones who should actually *care* about rigidity of chassis etc yet they basically strip out half of body panels and non critical unibody elements?... If so then do those non critical panels even matter in the first place?

I crashed my BRZ recently. Yeah I know it's sad, it had like 1k miles on odo but I'm young, and dumb it gave me a lesson that no other car was able to give me - proved me that I suck at driving more than I think and that I'm actually lucky I'm alive after all those years of driving like a reckless idiot and I think that it's really valuable experience and at the end of the day this car is meant for young drivers to teach them how to drive properly so at the end of the day I guess it kinda did its job?... Maybe not exactly the way I imagined but it still did so I giess it's fair...

And now everyone around me talks crap like "dude it's lost, it's totaled, it's gonna never be the same, it's all lost, it's never gonna feel the same, oh my god kill yourself, you'd be better of selling it altogether and getting another car"... And I'm like wth man... I just barely kissed the barriers going like 40kph on wet...

http://lapsio.lapsio.dev/public/inet/brz/a.jpg
http://lapsio.lapsio.dev/public/inet/brz/b.jpg

Wheels are not bent even if they may look a bit like this on photo. Afaik according to initial repair calculations structural chassis elements are not damaged and car won't require pulling back to spec on frame and suspension has not suffered any apparent damage.

I'm not gonna discuss exact costs of repair but lets say it's about 1/3 of this car price brand new. But it's leased car so I had highest insurance and it's gonna be fixed by Subaru dealership with all original parts and according to proper repair procedures. Yeah sure I know it needs replacement of entire RH rear panel but it's just body panel. It shouldn't be really significant in any way to how car feels and drives and to body rigidity - especially if it's gonna be properly welded together right? I mean I'm not an expert, that's basically why I'm asking here but my common sense tells me that it can't really be THAT bad considering body panels can be literally bent using bare hands if you apply enough force to them...

So is it really THAT terrible or people are just demonizing it and I shouldn't give a f* about that? Or am I just stupid and I don't know anything about how cars work and it's actually quite substantial damage?

Hey mate. Sorry about your car. You're dead right about non-structural damage. These are the same people who will tell you that a diff bushing kit 'made the rear feel more planted' as if it they could feel it wobbling around before.

Not sure if your damage would be considered non-structural by the look of the rear.

If the wheels are still aligned it's probably sweet. Fix and keep racing.

FWIW I leave my daily in 'sport' mode on tracks with close barriers (or trees). It makes minimal difference to your times if you learn to drive smoothly, and is a nice safety net.

Sent from my SM-G973F using Tapatalk

People are anal. A proper repair is as good as new performance wise, though a good mechanic will easily spot where the damage was unless you do a full repaint. Dealerships are not known for their quality of repair. They just have other shops do the body repairs anyway. Once it is repaired, have a speed shop take a look and make sure it's all true.

the major difference in race-prepped cars is the roll cage. many times, it adds rigidity in area's that the oem structure was lacking.

rippling in the side panel is definitely concerning. the visible panel isn't so much structural, but the fact that it's rippled means that the chassis behind it has shifted. to correct that, it needs a frame straightener, and an experienced operator, neither of which is a dealer tool.

with enough time and money, anything can be fixed to as-new condition.

I'm not sure how it works in US but here in Poland (and probably rest of EU as well but idk) we have so called ASO (authorised service station) which is basically certified by manufacturer workshop which doesn't void your warranty etc. Here almost all (if not all) dealerships have ASO as part of complex. They're always really expensive (double manhour comparing to regular workshop) but they have certified staff etc. They also almost always have all required gear and staff - body workshop, paint job, detailing & car wash, mechanical service, certified car inspection station etc. Basically everything and they don't really outsource many repairs (however they may refuse to repair parts and tell that it has to be replaced because manufacturer hasn't specified procedures to repair this part - sometimes entire engine). So basically it's best you can get here in terms of quality, but at tough premium price. To put it in perspective only about 30% of repair cost in my case are parts and repairing this car in "normal" body workshop would cost about half the price (still using new, original parts).

So i gave car to dealership where I purchased it. They have all required tools (including frame pulling machine but like I said it most likely won't be required)

Other workshops not associated with dealerships... well... I guess you can take a look at Poland proximity to Russia on map and come to some conclusions :bellyroll: Basically servicing in ASO is the only way that gives you 100% certainty that you won't receive "ceramic car" back with rear quarter made in 50% of used frying pans welded together and 50% concrete lol... Unfortunately this is reality of car repairs in not authorized stations in Poland:

https://youtu.be/eQj9lp85zG4

Sorry, didn't see where you are. I hear that, in former Soviet nations, trust is hard to find.

As someone else pointed out, the rollcage adds back several times whatever little rigidity was lost by removing some non-structural body paneling.

Also, you gotta remember the car's intended goal. Repairs carried out on the unibody may result in additional parasitic noises, vibrations, leaks or out-of-spec panel gaps, that may be annoying in a street car, but do not matter whatsoever in a race car.

Basically, you're comparing apples to oranges :-)

As far as your car, well it sucks to see a WRB PP car in that condition -I'd drive to Poland to get these wheels for cheap btw :-p -, but the damage, to my highly unprofessional eye, seems non-structural. If the frame and wheels are 100% straight, and the repairs are carried out by a certified body shop, then the only thing worth worrying about is resale value, which is nullified by the fact your car is leased.

Basically, don't sweat it, repair it, drive it, but think twice before buying it once the lease is over.

Well tbh if I cared about vibrations, rust, perfect panel fitment and noises I would go buy some Audi (especially considering my father works here and I could get like 40% worker discount) but I didn't. Let's be real - nobody buys such car with comfortable daily ride in mind. I don't even worship how it looks I mean it's okay but it's not like I'm dying for how it looks. The only thing that worries me atm is how will it perform on track after repairs since I already tracked it like literally first day after it crossed burn-in period (maybe it's one of factors that translated to my too high confidence on street) and I'm gonna continue tracking it at very least twice a month. I bought it because it's fun af and handles exceptionally well and as secondary putpose can be somewhat used to carry people and grocery around unlike MX5 Miata. It also means that if required - I don't rule out necessity to install additional strut bars and braces to fill in rigidity loss due to repairs - I've seen there are even strut bars installed under rear bash bar support for BRZ so I guess that's something to consider in worst case. If there was a cage that doesn't erase back seats I would maybe even consider installing one :D

Haha it's actually even a bit worse - It's Final Edition in top spec - price I got at dealership was like 48 grands (bc VAT tax in EU, translates to 39k usd without tax) so it really sucks to see it that way - it could become collectors car in few years... But oh well it probably won't then. It is leased but my leasing was calculated for 0$ residual value so it makes absolutely no sense for me to not buy it after lease (since it'll be like 1k to buy it at the end of lease). I did it that way because I never really planned to not buy it.

Truth to be told this crash kinda solved dilemma I had before regarding putting any aftermarket mods on it. It was limited run edition, brand new, 5 yr. warranty, clean history I felt some moral barrier that discouraged me from doing any mods in fear of loosing value of such car with potential collectors value. But now it's not in pristine condition anyways, carries battle scars and won't hold resale value anyways so whatever I can just make it my track machine like I always wanted without any regrets c:

I took goddamn 5 months to fix due to ridiculous shortage of car parts. We had to wait like 3 weeks for radiator fan cover and it was like this for literally all parts ever. Insurance provider didn't make it any simpler due to insane amount of formalism and paperwork. But it's finally back. Looks like new, feels like new, drives like new...

http://lapsio.lapsio.dev/public/inet/brz/d.jpeg
http://lapsio.lapsio.dev/public/inet/brz/f.jpg
http://lapsio.lapsio.dev/public/inet/brz/e.jpeg

EDIT: Since people often ask me about scope of original damage I'm uploading more photos:
http://lapsio.lapsio.dev/public/inet/brz/g.jpg
http://lapsio.lapsio.dev/public/inet/brz/h.jpg

And WIP from new panels fitment:
http://lapsio.lapsio.dev/public/inet/brz/i.jpg
http://lapsio.lapsio.dev/public/inet/brz/j.jpg

ASO did stellar job with bodywork, I still got warranty and stuff and it would all be super cool and I'd probably the happiest man in the world right now but... meantime when BRZ was being fixed I made terrible mistake.

I bought dirt cheap track modded SPEC compliant Miata NB as temporary "replacement car".

https://lapsio.lapsio.dev/public/inet/mx5/e.jpg

And now BRZ feels like just another boring grocery getter :/

It's like waaaay too plush, clumsy, big and wobbly during cornering. It's terrible. I feel even more terrible when I realize that price difference between those two cars was 40k vs 5k. Now I feel like I've been fooled by everyone and captured in "new cars" flex race and missed what really matters. Ended up with loan for car I never actually needed and now I'm not even really happy with it.

I know it's not fair comparison because it's stock vs modded but is BRZ even capable of behaving similar to Miata? Or is it just too big and heavy car and I should just accept that it'll never drive even close to Miata? Difference in physical dimensions feels MASSIVE when you look at them side by side. And so is difference in how they drive. In Miata I feel like I'm about to get ejected from car when taking a corner... Where should I even start if I want to make it feel better and make this comparison more fair?... Giving up on BRZ feels wrong especially since at the end of the day it was sole reason why I got MX5 in the first place and it taught me a lot so far. But every time I'm entering BRZ after taking drive in that Miata I feel betrayal and regret :c

I don't care about speed, that Miata is not even half as fast as BRZ and burns 2L of oil a month. All I want is to make BRZ feel more stable and rigid. Currently it just doesn't to the job like it should. At all. It's loose as f*ck.

I'm having mental breakdown over difference between those cars...

good to hear you got it back together! sorry to hear it might not stick around

Very cool to see it all back together. Looks great! Miata makes use of camber change as a function of compression which is possible with double-wishbone suspension. It actually relies on body roll to position the wheels for max grip without sacrificing a nice contact patch for boring street driving.


The rear suspension on the twin is similar but macpherson struts are always a sad compromise. Still they can be made to behave very nicely with a bit of work. I think you're just saddened by going back to a stock soft suspension. The twin's chassis is gorgeous. Just make minor changes to spring and damping rates, add some negative camber to the front, and I bet you'll be quite pleased.

Get decent coilovers and good tires and revisit.

If you don't need the functionality of the 86 then sell it, no need to have cars that overlap.

Yeah I think I'll go the same route previous Miata owner did - coilovers + some strut bars and braces for starters. Miata is much easier with rollbars tho. For BRZ I believe it may be quire challenging to find some cage that won't require rear seat delete (and won't make rear seats realistically unaccessible). I've seen Cusco seems to make such cages but I've also seen many folks out there who say those cages are structural joke so idk maybe I'll pass for now and try to pursue rigidity in other places.

For sure I will try to make this thing more... Miatish :D At least as much as I can.

I do. I mean that's why I didn't get new MX5 as main car but got BRZ instead. When BRZ was being repaired I used that Miata as my one and only car for 3 months and I perfectly know now that it's not possible to use it as your one and only car. I was forced to use car sharing / rental all the time because of 2 seats and no trunk space. I need to have 4 seater that can be used for basic... car stuff like carrying people around and getting groceries and stuff... BRZ actually kinda IS my grocerry getter as those are my only cars and out of those two BRZ is much more functional.

I just thought BRZ will be like ultimate master of all trades indistinguishable from MX5, 370Z and other non-functional pure sports cars yet still quite functional. Basically I expected it to be racecar capable of being occasional grocery getter. But oh well... It is distinguishable more than I expected at least when stock. But yeah I'll revisit after getting coilovers.

Actually I can't sell it even if I wanted due to loan terms :D So I'm stuck for at least 2 more years with this car and that gives me plenty of time for improvements.

Jeez if the brz feels big and heavy, wonder how any other modern coupe would feel. No matter what, miatas follow the raw lightweight formula truer than pretty much any other car including the twins but I would gladly trade some of that for a real fixed roof coupe with backseat and usable trunk space..not to mention fit a lot better in the driver's seat.

I think you nailed it right there. You’re comparing a fully track modded Miata vs stock BRZ. You can mod and align the BRZ to be lighter, more responsive and grip better. It just comes down to how much time/money you’re willing to spend and how much comfort you’re willing to sacrifice.

If I were you, if you like the Miata and don’t mind all the compromises on the street (roll bar without helmet, NVH, stiffness, lack of roof, slow) then you should stick with it and sell the BRZ. No sense spending time/money on the BRZ trying to hit a target you’ve already achieved in a cheaper package. Sell the BRZ and put that money towards more track time with the Miata!

There's no replacement for displacement (for the most part), and neither is there replacement for weight and wheelbase/size.

I've always thought that at 2800lbs this car was never "light." Merely average - and it feels average in size too. While it may be smaller than the average (american) vehicle it also never felt small to me. You can feel the 2800lbs quite easily with the engine and even in turns, even moreso when you put a passenger in and feel the extra weight shift about on the passenger side. Dropping 600lbs into a smaller vehicle is incomparable to this car.

I'll also add that I never got "racecar" vibes from the 86 as someone who had only driven cushy SUVs up until I got it. It's "stiff" but it doesn't scream lightweight go-kart that a lot of people likened it too. Maybe I don't drive dangerously on public roads though, and I haven't had time to actually track/do HPDE (bloody economy and everything else too.)

Just my 2c. Love my 86 but it's a car that, IMO, needs to be driven at the limit to really be appreciated/understood otherwise. I actually want to make my car softer to be honest...

I a world where the next lightest RWD 2+2 weighs 6-700 lbs more (BMW 2), the BRZ/86 is definitely lightweight.

You can’t really compare it to a stripped Opel Corsa or the like. A RWD car with a 100” wheelbase will weigh more than an entry level FWD hatch. You also can’t compare it to a Lotus Elise because this car actually passes crash tests. Even the lightest Evora isn’t lighter than the BRZ.

I actually would prefer if Toyota cooperated with Mazda instead of Subaru, especially regarding the engine. A RWD coupe with the size similar to Yaris sedan with ND Miata's excellent 2.0 engine and design based on AE86 - that would be a true rebirth of a Hachiroku.

There's no reason I can't compare it because my discussion a matter of relative weight regardless of class or whatever other parameters. You will never make a 2000lb car feel like a sub500lb go-kart, and likewise a car that weighs nearly 50% more than 2000lbs is still 50% more weight. Likewise the Evora has a much more powerful powerplant...which when you factor in its total weight to the engine, is fairly impressive for all the lightweight engineering they do.

I'm not saying you can buy a lighter <2500lb commuter car and throw it around with the same performance as an 86 but power is power, weight is weight and the nuance and feel is going to be different. The 86 a medium sized coupe on the lighter side of overall vehicles, but it's still not exactly "light." There used to be commuter cars that were lighter, and there were cars that weighed just as much with far more power (stock), but only relative to today's average cars is it even barely on the lighter side of cars - regardless of safety and technological improvements.

This car has never screamed lightweight like some Alfa Romeo 4c. Just "lighter than today's average vehicle." There's a reason people love the Miata, the fiat 500, etc. You literally cannot make up for weight and dimensions. That's why I believe OP is enamored with the miata.