New BRZ vs Z
 

We're not gonna get any more solid details about either car for a while so this is a hypothetical discussion to kill a few months. I love the weight of the BRZ and when not romping on it the efficiency of the NA 4-pot is appealing. In the 90s I could live with the idea of an adequately powered car but it's a quarter century later and every other vehicle makes crazy power. This will be my last ICE sports car and the appeal of 400hp for only another $5k has me considering the Z. It sounds like there will be a 300lb difference between them. Anyone else choosing between these two? With a couple grand budget and little concern for comfort or aesthetics that weight could be reduced (same could be said for the BRZ). Is the Z gonna feel like a boat even after some dieting? Is the BRZ gonna have enough torque to not feel inadequate when exiting a corner in 3rd? When cruising will the Z's engine be a relative fuel hog or will modern tech make it capable of 30+mpg? I've got until May 2022 to hem, haw, and argue over this.

There's no car to test drive so who's to say. The weight different will be around near 500lb btw, the 370z is already 400lb+ heavier than the 2022 BRZ. The 400Z is just the old 370z chassis with FI so it won't be lighter. Really both cars are just subtle refinements of the previous car with a bit more power. So if you can figure out what you like about the old cars apply to the new ones I guess?

5k? No way. Not apples-to-apples with both cars having an LSD.

Make that 5-600. Nissan is quoting dry weight for now. Zs are heavy, they have been for decades.

What diet? This thing won't be lighter than a 370Z. It likely will handle like a 370Z, considering it's the same chassis. That means it'll be fast, but it won't handle as well at the limit as the GR86/BRZ.

Yes

No, even the GR86/BRZ (manual) will struggle to do that.

The Z will be faster, the 86 will be the better driver's car, just like last gen. Both cars are a mild refresh of the old chassis with a new engine, so the points made in this video will still stand:

Chris Harris GT86-370Z-Cayman

I imagine Nissan will be pushing these things with predatory lending along with all their other products with many of them on a tow bar at 2 am. The gift that keeps on giving.

I'm looking at the same scenario. A major decider for me will be which of the two does a better job of addressing the current model's weak points - IMO the engine on the twins, and the handling near the limit, the IP, and the seats for the Z. The twin-turbo 6 Nissan is taking from Infiniti is widely praised, should be a good fit in the Z. Love the looks too except for that front grill, like the GR86's it seems too square.

Ditto for me. I suspect this next car might be my last with a manual transmission (thanks to creeping arthritis). I have the same questions and thoughts; lighter and more flingable BRZ/86 with a N/A engine, vs. a much more torquey and faster Z.

Given my street/highway driving uses, I suspect I'll like the Z better - except for the turbo motor. As impressive as it is on paper, I still always prefer a good N/A engine.

I think the Z is going to sell well. We're all going to have to wait for reviews and personal road tests, but it seems to address the things people found wanting in the 370Z while keeping the basic goodness. It keeps the robust, stiff, still relevant and competitive chassis, but updates the body styling to something more svelte and even approaching classically beautiful, while updating the interior that was probably the biggest weakness of the 370Z. As a bonus they're also updating the motor to a more efficient and powerful mill, one that will likely be readily amenable to even further aftermarket power boosts. What's not to like?

I agree that it will probably be more than a $5k price spread vs. the BRZ/86, especially when factoring in the inevitable ADMs and other games Nissan dealers will play. It will probably be north of a $10k price difference, but probably well worth it for a car that's in a whole different league.

I hate to say it, but for me the buying and dealer experience might be the deciding factor. 3 years ago I started out with the intention to buy a 370Z. But, as I've ranted about at length in other posts, after a year of trying and going to 6 different Nissan dealers, I was completely disgusted with their sleazy sales tactics. I just couldn't find the car I wanted from a dealer willing to put aside slimy games and just sell a car for a reasonable price. Nissan sleaziness was what drove me into Subaru's arms.

I think it's going to be even worse with the new Z. The 370Z was a car few people wanted a couple of years ago, and Nissan dealers still couldn't resist playing dirty. I think there's going to be a feeding frenzy over the new Z. I can already hear the drool dripping from Nissan salespeople's mouths at the thought of how they'll be fleecing the gotta-have-it early buyers.

Given how rampant the filth and grime I encountered was among all the Nissan dealers, I suspected it was condoned if not outright encouraged by Nissan USA corporate. Seeing the latest scummy move to come from them, with the 8 year predatory financing loan cons, confirms my suspicions. I don't think I'll need a crystal ball to foresee how this is going to turn out: liking the Z, visiting several Nissan dealers and then having to powerwash the filth off myself afterwards, and then ending up back at a Subaru dealer.

I never imagined that the dealer experience could sway my decision for which car to buy, but there you have it.

Well that much weight difference is night and day handling wise. The guys that prioritize straight line speed will buy the Z. The guys that prioritize the driving dynamics will buy the 86.

New BRZ vs Z
 

Lets be honest here.

As much as I love a NA and a manual transmission, those days are over, it’s going to be extinct soon. We got to stop living in nostalgia.

Once you drive the 400hp Z, are you really going to choose a +200hp NA? It’s not going to happen. I love my RSX-S 200hp 8k RPM 6spd sonofbitch but it’s not even close to my Supra.

Will the twins be a more drivers car than the Z? Yes! Do you drive your twins to the limit 100% of the time on the street? More like 0% on the street. Same with the Z, normal every day enthusiast will not drive the Z to the limits on the street. Thats why even with the same old trash chassis, the new Z will be a god sports car for the masses.

If you think the Z will have great interior, you better think again. It’s just a rehash interior.

How do you think nissan is able to sell you a 400hp Z for $35k MSRP? It’s a reskin 370z with Q50 engine and it continues to use a maxima chassis. Why does the Supra cost $20k more? The chassis is specifically designed for a sports car. The interior is premium. My point is you get what you paid for.

The twins in the other hand, will be a great car. Do you ever wonder why people don’t stick with the twins for too long? It needs more power and by adding force induction, reliability is out the door. You can buy a Reliable Z with the cost of adding a turbo/supercharger kit to the twins.

If you want power get the Z if it’s in your budget. If you want to live in nostalgia about NA and a manual car, get the twins.


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It may be a different type of driving dynamics but that doesn't mean the handling can't be impressive at that weight. There are other sports cars in that weight class with widely acclaimed handling, 911s for example. The key question is: how much of that can Nissan deliver at a lower price point?

Driving context also influences this choice for some of us. Do you have ready access to winding roads, or are you limited to driving a grid? If I lived in a twisty-road environment it would heavily push me towards the new twins.

A stock 911 is soft. Great GT though.

I have to say my experience matches yours... Although I loved my 280Z, the last time I owned a Nissan the dealerships were soooooo bad that I have never seriously considered another Nissan. Add that to the reliability and fit/finish of my last Nissan experience, and as much as I like the looks of the new Z I don't think I could buy one.

New BRZ looks like a$$, the new Z looks sweet.

400 hp vs 228? Not even close in terms of performance. I would get the Z any day over the new BRZ. BRZ/86 fanboys will keep arguing that their cars are the best thing that ever happened to them, but this platform is so underpowered and unreliable

well I’ve owned so many cars. 911 twin turbo to Miata and my sorted FRS is my favorite overall for my needs. it’s not always about the power. If it was we’d revel a AA fuel dragster as the ultimate.

Great video, and if you have traffic- and LEO-free roads like that to drive, Harris is no doubt right. Being a 2 day drive from those kinds of roads, other factors come more into play, like tractable power and liveability.

In Toronto roads (generally straight line, grids, and low speed limits), I'm thinking slow-car-fast is the way to go. It's a scenario where, since I can't enjoy twisties, I'm enjoying the engagement of making each shift. I feel like I'd be a bit bored with underutilizing the car if I'm always having to upshift under 3k rpm to stay legal... Maybe I should just get a kei car....

Yes I sometimes lean that way myself. Even my current 8 second car accelerates quickly enough for typical in-city driving, and it's fun to go WOT occasionally for longer than one or two seconds and get a shift or 2 in at high rpm. I'll test drive both the Z and at least one of the twins before deciding.

that's my issue with the BRZ/86.. u get no power until the higher RPMs, and ppl think u're a ricer wanting to race every single time... cops have the same perspective too (aka the twins are of the most ticketed cars in America)... it gets really, really old

Ironically the FRS (not the BRZ or 86 just the FRS) was #2 for SPEEDING tickets in 2019. It dropped right off the list in 2020.
That has nothing to do with driving in the higher RPMs and says more about the drivers than the cars. You don't get speeding tickets for getting up to the limit only for going over it.

https://www.freep.com/story/money/ca...ts/2016498001/

https://insurify.com/insights/car-mo...-tickets-2020/

Great points and discussion guys. I share the opinion that despite a claim I read that the 400z will be 3250lbs the real weight will be 150 more. I've never been in a Z car so maybe I'll check a current one out but I've always been turned off by sports cars that on paper have the weight and size of a GT. The new BRZ is probably the closest available thing to a perfect car for my uses but I can't get over the thought of wanting something more powerful and more special as my last sports car. That's why I'm still considering the M2 and Cayman S. The problem with those is I have difficulty justifying the cost, considering how little I drive my car (about 1500mi/yr). I want a 200lb lighter BRZ that doesn't feel like an underpowered kid's car and costs $40-45,000. Oh, and the rear glass should lift up like the Z's for loading odd size items (bike with both wheels off) while the seats are down.

You are just projecting your feelings at this point. Did the twins really bully you that badly?

Let me be honest with you. Get the M2 if it's going to be your last sportscar. The M2 and its many variations right now I would consider to be more special than the BRZ/86. It's probably the only M car worth the money.

A BRZ will never be as special as an M2, just like how an M2 will never be as special as an NSX.

Totally agree and I'm currently trying to get an idea of cost and availability and trying to justify the cost. It'll live in a garage and see little use in perfect conditions. I could probably sell it in 20 years for almost what I paid. The reviews make it sound like the perfect hooligan car vs the Cayman's stuck-to-the-racing-line style.

i'm sure if someone tracks fix-it tickets or excessive exhaust volume tickets, the twins will be up there too

Along with Civic sedans and old Neons!

Having these special cars is never about resale value. Too many people think like this. I don't doubt you could get a pretty penny for it in 20 years, it will be wanted for sure, but what would be more important to me is in 20 years if she's still running and clean, are the memories and feeling that car gave me. I could never give it up.

Special cars shouldn't just be a transaction waiting to happen, they should inspire you, you should know what you want without having to debate pros and cons. Budget obviously comes into play, but if you truly want something special, ask yourself what is it to you that makes these steel boxes on wheels special and I think you'll find your answer.

If the cost of the M2 is so in your mind (and you can afford it), I don't think it's special enough for you.

Well said. A used M2 is on my 'next car short list', as is an E92 M3. But if the new twins feel as special as the first gen, I'm not sure the BMWs would make it on top for me. The twins feel so much more special than they should have any right to, in a way no spec sheet or even car review can properly convey. And it won't be like that for everyone.

There is definitely something about the twins that is just unexplainable. It's easily greater than the sum of its parts, and there are very few cars like this.

It's like a few steps behind an S2000..

Definitely should be pointed out that this is just one person's opinion and it would be unfortunate if some impressionable minds were to start putting some stock into this.

The Z is an overweight pig and requires a lot to have it become more of a lively, responsive, true driver's car. Yes, it can be done, so don't everyone get your panties in a bunch...

...However, out of the box, following the above wording, I'd actually say that the BRZ is in a league of its own.

Different strokes for different folks!!

Have had the unfortunate experience of driving the older 350Z and it was a bit disappointing - I'd never consider it over my 2018 BRZ. Straight line isn't for everyone...

Isn't pretty much every post on this forum (and probably every other car site as well) 'one person's opinion?'

If anyone were to truly take substantive action and spend big money based on a single post on any car forum, I'd suggest they might want to look into what's important to them, and if the money may be better spent on counseling.

I was under the impression that this site, like most similar car forums, was primarily for light entertainment, sharing views, experiences, and thoughts purely for the fun of it and not as any kind of 'contest' over absurd notions of 'right' or 'wrong'.

As you said, 'different strokes for different folks'. There is no 'right' or 'wrong' when it comes to enjoying cars. Vanilla or chocolate. Neither one is 'better' than the other in any way. Anyone into cars has their own likes and dislikes, and everyone's preferences are completely valid.

Some people enjoy the fun of coordinating both hands and feet with an archaic, obsolete, less efficient manual transmission and an equally less efficient N/A engine just because they like it. Others get pleasure out of maximizing efficiency with a 10 speed DCT and a highly strung small displacement turbo. One person's dinosaur is another person's passionate delight.

I own a BRZ. I might keep it, or I might buy the next gen car, or I might buy the Z. I hope both the next gen BRZ and Z are wild sales successes, because I think the world would be a more interesting and fun place with more sports cars in it rather than less, reduced down to some arbitrary single 'optimal' design.

That's the beauty of cars. There are so many different ways to have fun. They can all be appreciated for what they offer. Wouldn't it be boring to go to a Cars & Coffee (when it's safe to do so again) and see row after row of the same damn car? I think the diversity is much more interesting and adds different automotive flavors to the feast. Like life in general.

As the French say so well, 'Vive la difference!'.

As others have pointed out, the weight difference is significant enough to warrant consideration.

The 400Z will likely be heavier than the outgoing model with the introduction of FI. That 500+lb weight difference is pretty big given the relative price performance.

Price for price, I'd go with the BRZ/86 given the difference in driving dynamics.

Nah, it's a fact Honda is the best. The CTR is the greatest super car killer to ever exist, faster than Lykan Hypersport, fast than McLaren Senna.

CTR is racecar.

Its the king of hot hatches, but stay in your lane friend... Driving a FWD 221kw hatch will never compare to properly put together sports car platform.

Yeah, da fast lane. Stay in the slow lane, you holding up traffic, and stay out of da figure eight, thats only for the real 'Gs'.

The M2 and M4 were actually near the top of my list when I wanted to get another sports car in 2019; I was also considering the Cayman. However, to me, this cars are probably more 'special' than they look, but I've never really warmed up to the looks of the M's no matter what the performance. They're not 'sports cars' - but high performance sedans. Porsches may also be special cars, but I can barely tell the difference between them unless they're a GT3 or 4. Honda CTR might be a great hot hatch, but the lines just don't do it for me. I came from an old 280Z before the BRZ, so I'm partial to the sports car look vs. hot hatches and performance sedans.

When I first got my BRZ in 2013, I did a little writeup here, comparing my thought on it vs. the 280Z it replaced: https://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=35028

I ended up going with the C8, which isn't a 'special' car (other than it being the first mid-engine 'Vette), but one that I like the looks of better than the BMWs and Porsches; especially now that I'm done with the little cosmetic mods to 'make it my own'. I've been very happy with my choice so far, and it's a joy to beat on in the canyons. Still have the BRZ as my daily. So many good cars by the numbers, but sometimes it just boils down to which one appeals aesthetically to you.

Exactly. And perfectly worded.

I never understood buying a car like the BRZ, or even the Nissan Z, and thinking about resale value. IT IS NOT AN INVESTMENT. It is for enjoyment, good times, nice cruises, car meets, maybe some weekend racing, or just a daily commute, whatever you want.

To me, it's no different than other passions or hobbies that I would interact with... Video games are $60, sometimes $100 when you factor in special versions/microtransactions, sports tickets $100-1000, ammo? $1/round nowadays. But no one is holding onto their GTA copy hoping to sell it one day for a profit, especially when there's literally millions of other copies out there. They enjoy it and it's done.

When my FR-S eventually becomes worth nothing in value, it's still going to have been worth all the money I spent buying it and fixing it up

I'm not sure how the twin is more unreliable than the Z??

What do you mean nostalgia? If it really will be extinct soon, then NOW is the time to get a car with that formula, not later on when it's gone.

Yes, actually. You mentioned owning a Supra. To me, it's a breath of fresh air going back to my FR-S driving an automatic Supra for some time.

I think the Z is going to be great and continue on with what the previous gen has been doing. So it's going to be a tough decision but ultimately I can't resist a lightweight car. I'll take on the reliability challenge of boosting or building up an 86 and be an underdog to the Z. I'd have both though, if I could afford it.

I’ve almost had my brz for a year and I’m genuinely interested in how weight feels in other cars. I’m used to my Volvo at 3200 and a great deal more power. I love that car. If the z had all the cockpit feel of the brz and power I’m in.

To each their own really.

I had a really long reply, but felt it didn't need to be said after a while.

I think you just realized what was important for you in a car instead of the bubbles of praise some other cars have and being fooled to buy one of those.

That sums it up well. :thumbsup:

:lol: