American enthusiasts hate manuals (lies!)
 

" Porsche spokesperson Luke Vandezande says America's take rate for the 6-speed manual GT3 is an astonishing 70%. Not only that, but the global manual take rate for the GT3 doesn't even come close, at just 30%. "

Further proof that US sports car buyers want manual transmissions more than anyone else! :party0030:

" For Subaru BRZ buyers, 78% opt for a manual, but for the nearly identical Toyota 86, only 33% do so."

https://www.autoblog.com/2021/02/28/...ual-take-rate/

manuals require extra effort. we had to institute laws mandating backup cameras and additional safety systems so people wouldn't need to expound the extra effort to be aware of their surroundings and stop running over others.

there's no shock to this for me.

what about the manual take rate for non-sports cars?
The ones that sell thousands of times more than sports cars?

Those come in somplace around the 2% mark so don't look to them to bring the numbers up! There are very, very few non "sports" models that even offer MT anymore.

Porsche needs to address their gearing then maybe they'd sell more manuals. This is what I've been told, not my personal experience

Agreed. I wouldn’t want to buy a manual either if I only could use 2nd and 3rd with 4-6th as overdrive gears, and that is in a Cayman. The 911’s have seven gears. I’m not surprised the GT3 with a 6-speed is popular.

I agree with the OP that there may be more enthusiasm for manuals than manufacturers are aware. Even with regular cars, part of the problem is the dealer network. Part of the problem is the manufacturers only offering a manual on base trims; no wonder they don’t sell. Part of it is because the manual transmissions suck so much on commuting cars. There are 0-60 times to consider too and profits and fuel economy and bla bla bla besides driver apathy.

Sad times indeed. If you go onto manufacturer websites and do a build and price, hardly anything is available in manual, and if they do it is usually offered on lower trim only.

It was a PITA when I was looking for my girlfriend. She wanted 2020 leftover stock, couldn't be silver, white, grey or black, needed to be a sedan and stick.

I searched every dealer in the city and found about 5-10 manual sedans, and one was blue. Guess what she bought.(fortunately it was one I thought she would like the most)

Don't think the dealers, manufactuers or profits have anything to do with it.
There are still loads of manual cars sold elsewhere in the world. The bulk of the Americian public just doesn't care about MT no matter what trim level the car is. They have not cared in several decades now so why would you expect the manufacturers to build them?

Porsche intentionally messed with the Cayman's gearing. (to make it less desirable than 911s? I dunno). The first 3 gears are extra tall, 4th is pretty normal, and 5th and 6th are shorter than you'd expect. Somewhat annoying. 6th gear combined with the final drive is barely taller than a BRZ.

100% of Civic Si and Type R are sold with a manual transmission!!! #manualswillneverdie

















:D

In 2019, U.S. buyers purchased more EVs then manual transmission cars. It wasn't even close. The margin was +50% for EVs per the Robb Report.

Writings on the wall, fans. Buy 'em now while you can.

Dealers historically were incentivized to up-sell an automatic because they were more expensive. Manufacturers are incentivized to sell cars with the best gas mileage, which is currently CVTs and 9-speed automatics. Look at the cars that are offered with a manual, and chances are the cars are only offered in the base trim or lowest trim levels. This is because manuals were deemed to be for those who are budget conscious. It is also why some countries still have a high take for manual transmissions--$1,500 extra for an automatic can be a lot.

I'm not saying there isn't less demand today than in the past; there is definitely less demand. Even if every model and every trim offered a manual transmission, the automatics would have more demand today than in the past and more demand than the manual too. Partially this is because a manual has a higher learning curve. Partially this is because the automatics have gotten so much better, and even are better than manuals from a performance perspective. Partially this is because American's commute a lot and like their autos in bumper to bumper traffic.

What I am saying is that the demand for manual transmissions is higher than the 2% of non-sports cars that get sold with a manual. What I am saying is that there are obstacles getting into a manual, so demand is higher than the take rate. See below:

https://gmauthority.com/blog/2020/12...-transmission/

Doesn't matter how many people know how to drive MT that doesn't mean they would buy them.
They stopped makin them because people stopped buying them. Simple.

Actually, I don't believe there is a demand. There is a desire greater than 2% perhaps but even if it's twice as much, we are only talking 4% of car sales.

In the end, like a lot of products, there are those that will take it only one way (in this case, only MT or only AT) and there are those that take either,. I think the DEMAND is the 2% we see because you really have to go out of your way any more to get it.

The MT group isn't large enough for a manufacturer to care. They aren't losing sales because they don't have an MT (or if they are its a rounding error). They will lose potential sales if they do not have an AT on the lot, at least at the dealership level.

I'm in the AT/MT agnostic group. I can drive either, I'll buy either, and it really isn't a deciding factor in my car buying. In fact, the ONLY time I've intentionally selected the AT over the MT was with the 86, and that was only after a test drive at the Long Beach 86 event where I drove them back to back. The MT felt like any MT I had ever driven, but the AT was the best one I had ever driven, so I picked the AT.

Or, people stopped buying them because they stopped making them. 0% of C8s are manual transmissions. It went from 26.55% to 0% in one year. That wasn't because demand dropped to 0%.

https://www.corvetteblogger.com/2019...e-c7-corvette/

Chevy could have made a manual too, but that would have cost more money, and maybe it would have required a chassis change just for the manual, and they might have had to crash test them both and spend millions investing in two powertrains instead of just one, so they decided to drop the manual despite demand and just offer a cheaper Corvette with a single option.

This isn't an isolated example.

My wife has an automatic, but I have two manual transmission vehicles: my BRZ and my Ducati. I despise driving the Q5 for any long period of time, except for the highway. It has body roll. Even in dynamic mode, it is constantly looking for gears. I don't get the appeal, and I couldn't drive an automatic for my daily driver. I would need to be in LA and driving 1-2 hours in bumper to bumper traffic every day to even ponder the idea, so yes, I am that 2% that the transmission is a deal breaker for me, and I agree that for the vast majority of people, there is no preference. Many people settle for the color they don't want, or they trim they don't want, or the transmission. Many people here are perfectly happy with the auto, but they intended on buying a manual transmission. I am guilty of doing the same with a rare hardtop MKIV Supra that I intended to replace with a manual down the road. I'm sure there is more demand for an automatic over a manual transmission than a manual over an automatic just because of the learning curve, and most people are willing to pay the premium for an automatic than learn to drive a manual, but it is also a matter of lack of options. People would settle for a manual transmission just as they would settle for an automatic if a lot was full of manuals, or they were set on a red car, and they had to settle on a manual to get a red car because that is all that the dealer had on the lot.

I guess the question to ask is if the manual transmission rate in other countries is so high, is that because you believe there is large demand for a manual transmission, or do you believe that the supply of manuals is high, so the take is high?

I'm also a used car buyer. I would rather buy a slightly-used, seasoned, proven car from a reliable buyer than buy new car and pay the premium. As such is the case, I don't contribute to the demand for manual transmissions. I have to rely on other buyers to create the demand. As the average car gets more expensive, and as the average buyer of new cars get older, the take rate for manual transmissions will drop that much more. For instance, is it any surprise that the percentage of buyers who chose a manual BRZ was higher than the percentage of buyers who chose a manual C7? Probably not, considering that the average age of the buyers of the Corvette are older. This makes it hard to find a used car that has a manual transmission because the demand is higher for used car buyers who tend to be younger and supply is proportionally less.

https://www.autoblog.com/2019/05/21/...smission-take/

Just to add another factor, this country has lost the sedan and estate car in favor of SUVs and crossovers, which could also have something to do with the fall of the manual transmission. My buddy had a Tacoma with a manual transmission, and it had the longest throws ever. Tall, upright seat-heights don't make for the best manual experiences.

Honestly, I don't think there is any way to know. The problem is there are only a very small percentage of cars that are ordered by the customer (is it even 1%?). They take what is on the lot, which means we buy what the manufacturers think we want but not what we really want. The only true way to know would be if a large number of buyers ordered rather than take spec-built cars from the lot.

It is much higher than that, or at least, I have read it is around 15% of new vehicle sales, but I don't know what that represents, or rather, I don't know how broad that number represents. Regardless, I don't know what we could learn from statistics derived from factory orders. The percentage of cars that are dealer w/ buyer ordered versus dealer w/o buyer ordered are higher as the cost of the car goes up, so more Caymans than BRZs and more 911s than Caymans. I bring that up because that fact would skew the data. Why? Because older people buy more expensive cars and more expensive cars tend to be more luxury leaning, so old people buy more automatics and luxury vehicles over economy vehicles tend to have more automatics. You can't even buy a manual transmission with most luxury brands like Audi. Hence, the data would look distorted and skewed by up-market trends.

https://www.caranddriver.com/feature...smission-cars/

Again, I go back to the other countries: if we lack demand for manuals here, or if we demand automatics here, then is it that the people in these other countries demand manuals, or are both options just equally on the lots, so they chose either because they are indifferent?

I always seem to meet a lot of people who drive manual or enjoy it. Yet the increase in nannies basically says the majority, or perceived majority, are lazy as fuck. That's why we have lane keep assists, back up cameras, braking assist, ect. Shit, that's all the nanny stuff you used to see in video games. Now it's real life O_o
Either way, I will buy a manual transmission till they are extinct. Not when people think they will be, but when I physically cannot.

Eventually a drivers test will just be one question:
"which button turns on the car"

And you have 4 multiple choice options....and sadly, i believe there will still be enough people getting that wrong....

Hi,

Im here because I need help,
my name is Red,

I will only drive standard,
People think I have become a manual snob.

Reading these dire statistics have been
causing me exedy more shudders when I think
about what my next purchase has 2B.

At this point Im even considering changing
my name to Amanuelle as it won’t matter
how its done anymore in the future.

Is there hope I can be saved?

Ive talked to so many people that want a manual but when they can’t find one on a lot they end up settling for an auto. They want a manual but not enough to fight for one. It’s crazy to think these obstacles don’t impact take rates.

Manufactures would rather make one platform so as long as manual buyers aren’t walking away and refusing to settle for an auto then they will continue to only put autos on the lot and then pretend they didn’t know people actually want manual but can’t find them.

Also, why would an identical car (86 vs BRZ) have such dramatically different stats on manual sales unless it’s related to what they put on the lots.

Haha?

LOL to the "I talked to many people and they all want MTs" theme.
Talking to other car "enthusiasts" and saying they all agree is not a great sample. It is like going down to the local sailing club and asking if sail is better than power boats. Try going to your local mall and asking random people what they want and I bet you get a totally different response.
The very fact that they still offer and sell many MT cars in other markets would show that they would sell them here as well if there was more demand. The demand just isn't worth their while and THEY know it.
I love MT and will be sad to see them all go but I am not presumptuous enough to think that because a handful of people want them (in the big picture) that they are going to keep selling them.

Lament the downfall of the manual but don't try to blame the manufacturers for a purely North Americian mindset!

I assume you are quoting me. My core group of friends all met racing so I toss out their opinions because we are all %100 on the same page regarding manuals. I’m referring to family members and coworkers that aren’t heavily into cars.

For my claim, it's not just enthusiasts. It's clients and coworkers who are simple, mundane people. They just like the enjoyment of rowing their own and are far from an 'enthusiast'. But yes, coming here to say we want manual is preaching to the choir. :bonk:

The decline of manuals makes me think of another trend
happening that of automakers pulling the plug on the
whole segment of cheap small cars in NA. Yaris, Fit,
Micra, Fiesta, Focus, Cruze, Mazda2, smart4two,
Fiat 500,Sonic, Beetle, All gone!

To some this is no great loss.
Its not coincidental a lot of those were bought without
the Aught-too-matic option to keep the price down…

In the Crosstrek tread I mentioned 2 people not getting any
support from their local dealer when inquiring for a manual.
What I did not mention was these 2 people were 2 older
ladies in their early 60's who still have active lifestyles
and can still appreciate a manual.

The local dealer’s sales bluff backfired on him when they
both did a the 1000KM trip (or 500KM one way) to the
neighbouring town where that Suby dealer was quite happy
to get them each one. Definitely not your typical car/SUV
buyers to go to this effort to get what they really wanted.

To me, the whole point of the article, to me, is that Americans with sports car buying power, (more so than similar demographics in other countries) are "over" numbers cars. And want the experience.

Stark contrast to the Germans, for instance, who think if something is faster and more efficient it's better.

I'm generalizing, but it certainly seems those are their reasons every time a newer, more detached, generation of German car comes out.

I agree. The power and lap times wars may have hit a peak. With the future looking more like EVs, at least the enthusiasts want more than ever for a more analog experience, which includes a stick, three pedals and rowing their own.

There is demand, but apparently the bean counters think the demand isn’t worth the effort. This is why the C8 has no manual option. Sometimes they don’t know demand exists like Porsche with the 911R and manual GT3 variants. Sometimes demand is there, but again, the bean counters decide it is best to invest in something else. For instance, Ford has eliminated sedans because they say there isn’t enough demand, but they sold more sedans than many vehicles that still exist. What they really meant to say is we think there is more demand with crossovers and can make more profits. They have other motivations besides profits like avoiding average fleet fuel economy standards. Also, just looking at EV sales as a percentage of total sales, EVs seem to have no demand, but we know sales keep rising and compared to their competitors, EVs are doing well. I say that because no one looking at EV sales before Tesla would have said there was demand. Demand changes, but the current landscape of manual options doesn’t allow buyers to choose manuals or to settle for a manual like they settle for an automatic.

I do agree that no one is really complaining or demanding a change outside of a small set of vocal enthusiasts. It’ll be the same with sedans when they eventually dwindle. It’ll be the same with ICE when they go. It’ll be the same when they mandate autonomous driving and no one is allowed to drive for themselves. The only ones complaining will be a small percentage of vocal enthusiasts.

The critical difference between MT demand and EV demand is one is continuing to decrease and one is continuing to increase.

Stating the obvious, when you're in a business where you have to project out what the buying public will want 3 to 5 years in the future, you are going to only focus on one of those.

The lose of sedans (and wagons) totally sucks, but unfortunately if they don't build them, I can't buy them so I have to move on. I think that is a far greater loss than the MT.

There's plenty of existing lightly used sedans for you to buy and drive the rest of your life.

Instead of giving in and buying the sh*t they force on you.

That's the plan.

Its quite upsetting, but we do what we can.

Exactly. Eventually the only sedans offered could be inexpensive, crappy ones that no one wants or really expensive ones that few can afford then the manufacturers will claim there is no demand.

If we used the landscape of available cars as a barometer for what demand exists then we learn that the demand is for FWD crossovers, but luxury owners seem to demand AWD and RWD. Orrrrr, maybe FWD is cheap and better for fuel economy. I think the manual transmission was just a victim of profits. I don’t know if demand ever existed for the manual transmission. It was just cheaper and better for fuel economy and automatics were expensive and worse until they weren’t. All I’m saying is the manual transmission didn’t need to be phased out. It just was because it wasn’t needed.

I think the gear ratios are meant for track usage on the most powerful models (close ratio short high gears to hit top speed), and then they said "nope don't want to make different ratios for anything else" and dropped the same transmission into the rest of the lineup.

The 911's 7 speed box is pretty versatile, since the 7th is a true cruising gear, and 1st is a touch shorter. The problem is of course that in North America, you kind of can just skip to 7th since you won't need to be accelerating at >>100mph anywhere but the salt flats or something.

If they need to make the gearing like this for top end then they need to make a variable final drive ratio or something to switch between this ridiculous gearing and something useable.

It's a good theory but I don't think one that checks out. The gear ratios have been the same since 2006. There wasn't a model with more than 335 hp until 2016, 10 years later.

https://www.carthrottle.com/post/wha...urns-its-back/

I think this is a case of enthusiasts wanting a manual, but many enthusiasts don’t buy new, so used demand is higher than new demand like I’ve said before. They said only 4% of F-Types were manual, but the manual was only available on the V6, so not the R or SVR where many enthusiasts are buyers, albeit wealthy enthusiasts. What enthusiast wants the base power? Mustang GT350 and GT350R came with a manual, but not the F-Type R model. Oh well.

https://carbuzz.com/features/here-s-...thusiasts-want

https://www.roadandtrack.com/car-cul...o-enthusiasts/

Like I said, it seems like enthusiasts buy used. Makes sense. As enthusiasts, we are car savvy. We don’t buy the first releases or years of new models. We tend to modify cars, so we can add a new aftermarket bumper or carbon fiber lip to a used car; no need for a new one. We want to buy the best performance car we can, so we could buy a new car or a used car that is more powerful. I could go on.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/fortune...tang-cost/amp/

Comparing then vs now and adjusting for inflation, cars are more expensive today, yet people make less money, so of course it is that much harder owning a second vehicle or single vehicle, as an enthusiast. It is just another reason why sports cars are going and so is the manual with them.