Is 19 row Oil Cooler too much for NA?
 

Hey folks, I’m considering purchasing the 19 row oil cooler kit from MAPerformance. By default the kit comes with a 13 row (I’m assuming targeting NA use) but my thinking is if I upgrade to the larger cooler I am future proofing for FI. Is this sound logic? Is it possible the 19 row cooler would be too large and prevent my engine oil from reaching optimum temps on the street? I’m assuming not because the sandwich plate is thermostatic, but wanted to reach out for better informed opinions.

Thermostatic plate prevents overcooling. Hammer down

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With a thermostatic plate, my oil cooler still overcooked my oil in negative temps. I couldn't get my oil over 150 in highway driving

But you could without it? I've had cars refuse to warm up when it's stupid cold. And that was with no oil cooler. I suppose thermostatic plates seep 10% so that is more than zero

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Without it was was hitting 180s-190s. With cardboard over it I was back in the 170s

I wouldn't have thought it would make such a big difference

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I think because interstate driving is an extreme case. In traffic it probably would warm up, but we don't have much traffic in Vermont, especially not I winter

People don't work in the winter?

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More rows nets less pressure drop. Get the big one and block off some for daily. Remove cover for track.

Dont more rows generate more pressure drop?

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Of course they do ...... they just move slower ..... :D

I have the 19 row. No issues on or off track with the cooler. The coupler to the oil filter, area, however, leaks constantly so I've removed the cooler.

Opposite. More parallel paths is like having a fatter pipe.

Mhm. Doesn't going from a smaller pipe to a larger pipe reduce pressure?

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It reduces resistance to flow. Less pressure drop. Would you rather drink through a swizzle stick, or a big fat mcdonald's straw?


If you were stuck with swizzle sticks, you could tape a bunch of them together to get the same effect.

Ohhh I see. Less pressure drop because there is less pressure to begin with

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Not exactly but closer. Try thinking of the oiling system as a closed circuit. Pressure is zero as soon as it gets past the journals. Pressure is at its highest at the output of the pump - say 50 PSI just to give it a number.

That 50 PSI is our pressure budget to work with. It will always end up at zero past the journals but they are not the only things that resist flow (drop pressure). They could be if there was a short fat pipe between pump and journals but that's only for imagination.

Now start adding stuff like corners and narrow galleries to resist flow. If we feed the journals through a swizzle stick, the swizzle stick would take up most of that pressure budget because the cross sectional area of the swizzle stick hole is similar to the journal clearance. Let's say that the journals see only half of that total pressure - 25 psi.

How could we get back to that fat pipe? We can add a bunch of swizzle sticks together. Now oil flows more easily through that part of the circuit. Less pressure drop because more cross-sectional area.

Where can I get some swizzle sticks?

From the swizzle stick store duh

Get a higher rated thermostat.

I chose to uninstall the sandwich plate. Plan going forward yearly is to uninstall in October and re-install in May when temps get above freezing consistently. The oil cooler itself and lines remain installed but tucked away, much easier this way

I have the same issue, it is even worse if you have a splitter and ducted hood. I left my house once in July for a track day at 4am and drove nearly 3 hours. It was a little over 50F and even my coolant temp Couldn't hit 160F :bonk:

Even on my 13 row Perrin kit (Setrab 613), my highway oil temps were below 170 F when it was cold out. I've mounted my front license plate as a block-off plate and it works fairly decently. I just pull the front plate off at the track or in the canyons.

At the track, the 13 row is what I'd call barely sufficient for NA. I would hit occasional peaks of 240-245 F.

My suggestion would be to get the 19 row and create a block-off plate for the highway.

Have you considered that you might not need an oil cooler?

https://youtu.be/cDfFJ5s6IDg

Very informative video on oil cooling for our cars.

I remember this vid. Where he says "we've established the fact that you need an oil cooler" without presenting any evidence whatsoever that we do...

I think this is more representative of cooler vs. no cooler data. To me it is not entirely conclusive as I have not observed the same behavior on my car. I will be switching to a setup to log oil temps and pressure on my car next year.

https://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=91820

I switched the standard 180F thermostat that starts to open around 150-160F. to a a 197F thermostat that starts to open around 167-177F.

I also used the oem forester water to oil heat exchanger, both of these combined let the oil warm up to 170s fairly quickly regardless of weather.

Also unless relocated the sensor is post oil cooler, and the oil could be a solid 30F hotter in other parts of the engine / pre oil cooler.

I'm thinking of using swizzle sticks for my power steering cooler.....

I cannot see a downside

Wait......what........

To be fair, he does specify for track use and especially FI. I did laugh when he said you have to have an oil cooler, then spent several minutes complaining about how it's hard to get the oil up to temp. :D

I agree in general, but OP stated he will be going FI so I think it's important he at least hears from the dude who had one of the first ever FI kits for our cars/his experience with oil coolers.

I believe in the case of track + FI, an oil cooler is for sure needed.

FWIW in my experience here in the same bay area weather (with the 13 row cooler) I run 170F on the highway without a block off plate, and 200F with one.

I monitor it with my P3 gauge via OBD2 so as mentioned it is actually like 220 (maybe).

In light of the info from this thread, I think a Jackson Racing Rad/Oil Cooler is in my future.

Yeah, this is one of my go-to sources, it would be GREAT to get some more data like this, specifically oil temp and oil pressure going into the engine (post-cooler), with and without oil cooler, as well as *max* oil temp (pre-cooler, or sump?). Might be much to ask?

Might as well post up data from the link:
http://i.imgur.com/m8H5JBA.jpg

What this is telling us: an oil cooler does bring oil temps down at the track, in this case by about 25F-30F. But is 275F *really* a problem for good synthetic oil? I don't think it is. But what about oil pressure? Plot shows the same pressure for the same 5w30 oil whether it's at 275F without an oil cooler (yellow), or at 250F *with* an oil cooler (green). This is only one set of data, but the conclusion could be drawn that pressure drop due to the cooler nearly exactly offsets the pressure that should have been gained due to cooler oil.

Exactly!

He tells us: "We've already established that, if you track this car, stock or with forced induction, you need an oil cooler on the car, there's no way around it."
No, we have not established that... Him having "talked to people who race" doesn't establish the *need* for an oil cooler.

He refers to the service manual which gives specs for oil pressure, but what he doesn't mention is that those specs are not an absolute requirement, but are referenced to *a specified temperature* which is close to normal operating temp. Of *course* pressure will drop with elevated temperature and it's higher at lower temps (which he mentions). The spec just means that at the *specified* temperature, pressure significantly lower than spec indicates there's a problem. It does not mean it's a "problem" if pressure is lower than that at higher temps. He does mention "you wanna stay out of the 40psi range", so maybe he does understand that pressures below the "spec" are somewhat to be expected. But anyway, he's speaking as if he has authority on the subject that I don't think he actually does...

Everything I've read says that synthetic oil is fine at even 300°F. Why is there such a push to put oil coolers on these cars? You want the oil hot (>212°F) so it burns off the water from combustion byproducts. Unless you're changing it really often. Why not just skip the pressure lose of a cooler and run an appropriate oil for the temperatures. M1 0W-40 to get the best viscosity index I know of would be my thought process as it should maintain its viscosity well as temperatures increase and still act like 0W-20 at startup. If your oil temps are going higher than 300°F or if you're pressure is going too low - and the oil cooler will actually increase post cooler pressure - then get one. Otherwise, why add the complication?

No one is worried about damaging the oil. The oil will not break down but your viscosity goes down and makes it easier to break through the oil barrier and have metal to metal contact. 20 weight will have a higher viscosity at 250 than 40 weight at 300. Oil pressure has very little effect on protecting components I will give up the couple of PSI drop for 40 deg of temp. Yes I run 0w40, oil cooler and still get to 250 at the track, 200 summer street and around 180 winter. 180 to 200 will still evaporate the moisture, it will take longer.

And 30 weight oil at 275F will have about the same viscosity as 20 weight at 235F. My oil temps stabilize at a tick over 270F indicated at the track (no matter what ambient temp), so I run 30 weight, might consider 40wt next year...

I will try to do some sort testing next season, I have another timing cover I could drill and tap for running sending units on the inlet and outlet side. It is still sitting in my aluminum scrap pile. As I have mentioned quite a bit before, I seem to get a lot of cavitation on 5-30 at high RPMs. My peak pressures from 6k to redline were really not that much different then 0-20 because of it and the pressure was more stable with 0-20. Granted, I have only measured this with an oil cooler on the car.

that'd be cool :)

Yeah, that's a concern for me as well, one reason I'm running 30wt instead of 40wt for track season...
I'm sure you're familiar with this thread:
https://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=134863
Do you have KillerB pickup tube?