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Toyota GR86, 86, FR-S and Subaru BRZ Forum & Owners Community - FT86CLUB (https://www.ft86club.com/forums/index.php)
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-   -   Toyota Europe's non-announcment announcement about EVs (https://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=143466)

Dadhawk 12-07-2020 03:46 PM
Toyota Europe's non-announcment announcement about EVs
 
Toyota joins the ranks of saying that any day now, the majority of their line will be electric, starting with, you guessed it, a mid-size SUV for the European market.

Interesting video on the announcement though

And the march continues....

weederr33 12-07-2020 05:49 PM
Not to throw in an endless debate and ethics, but does swapping to a complete line up of EVs REALLY out weight the environmental effects of pollution?

Tcoat 12-07-2020 05:56 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by weederr33 (Post 3391344)
Not to throw in an endless debate and ethics, but does swapping to a complete line up of EVs REALLY out weight the environmental effects of pollution?
Yes.
Contrary to popular belief the power generation tech is not stuck in 1955.
At least not in Europe
https://m.dw.com/image/46699406_7.png

soundman98 12-07-2020 06:18 PM
every time i hear of the complete about-face to electric power, all i can think of how once smoking had no ill effects...

while electric is currently the best option, i don't like jumping into it with so few long term facts...

Dadhawk 12-07-2020 07:12 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by weederr33 (Post 3391344)
Not to throw in an endless debate and ethics, but does swapping to a complete line up of EVs REALLY out weight the environmental effects of pollution?
It's a legitimate question, as is @Tcoat's response.

As I've said elsewhere on this forum, I've gone from skeptical to intrigued. My major concern has always been charging infrastructure and times. Those are getting much better.

If I could buy only one car for the next 10 years to service my needs, it would be ICE.

I'm beginning to open up to an EV for my DD though, assuming I keep a "travel and hauling car" which we have always done.

Dadhawk 12-07-2020 07:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by soundman98 (Post 3391356)
every time i hear of the complete about-face to electric power, all i can think of how once smoking had no ill effects...

while electric is currently the best option, i don't like jumping into it with so few long term facts...
I still prefer fuel cells, but that seems like a dead proposition at this point except maybe for large trucks and other transport vehicles.

Irace86.2.0 12-08-2020 01:39 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dadhawk (Post 3391379)
I still prefer fuel cells, but that seems like a dead proposition at this point except maybe for large trucks and other transport vehicles.
I think EVs are the future for sure unless materials become some type of bottleneck. Tesla seems to think there is enough to go around, but one reason hydrogen could be adopted is if there isn’t enough materials to go around because they use so much smaller batteries than EVs.

why? 12-08-2020 08:08 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0 (Post 3391461)
I think EVs are the future for sure unless materials become some type of bottleneck. Tesla seems to think there is enough to go around, but one reason hydrogen could be adopted is if there isn’t enough materials to go around because they use so much smaller batteries than EVs.
There are not enough materials to go around unless we start mining asteroids and hit pay dirt on a massive one full of rare earth elements. And let's also be clear, the power grid of absolutely no country is ready for even 10% of its population to have ev's, never mind 50% or more.

Wally86 12-08-2020 08:23 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tcoat (Post 3391346)
Yes.
Contrary to popular belief the power generation tech is not stuck in 1955.
At least not in Europe
https://m.dw.com/image/46699406_7.png

You say that but three of these bars are speculative lol.

I'm stoked for EVs as long as they have the type of tech integration that I've experienced in Teslas. It's why my next (second) car will definitely be a Tesla. I've been in bolts/volts/leafs and they're all tiny and trash. When battery tech makes the next big jump, everything will change. Hopefully that'll mean backup cells at home that CAN be powered off of wind/sun like the above graph. But until we get there, we can't regulate and mandate our way there lol.



Sorry for the .04 cents.

Dadhawk 12-08-2020 08:53 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wally86 (Post 3391501)
You say that but three of these bars are speculative lol.
It's speculative, but there's a relatively good chance those plans are already in place and moving forward. Solar has gotten to the point where it is the least expensive method of producing electricity on a large scale. There is still the issue of production on overcast days.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wally86 (Post 3391501)
I'm stoked for EVs as long as they have the type of tech integration that I've experienced in Teslas. It's why my next (second) car will definitely be a Tesla.
I'm coming around to it as well, although it won't be a Tesla, mostly for the reason you like them. For Tesla money I'd likely get a Jaguar I-Pace or similar. The good news is we are starting to have real choices.

funwheeldrive 12-08-2020 10:37 AM
Meanwhile I'm busy hoarding 90s Japanese cars so I'm never forced to buy electric. :burnrubber:

Wally86 12-08-2020 10:45 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dadhawk (Post 3391503)
I'm coming around to it as well, although it won't be a Tesla, mostly for the reason you like them. For Tesla money I'd likely get a Jaguar I-Pace or similar. The good news is we are starting to have real choices.

Same price, half the range? Meh. :bonk:

Dadhawk 12-08-2020 11:39 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wally86 (Post 3391524)
Same price, half the range? Meh. :bonk:
What Tesla has a near 500 mile range in that price range?

Wally86 12-08-2020 12:40 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dadhawk (Post 3391541)
What Tesla has a near 500 mile range in that price range?
Model S is 80k for 410mi range.


EDIT: Heck, the model 3 is 47k for 360mi range.

Dadhawk 12-08-2020 12:46 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wally86 (Post 3391566)
Model S is 80k for 410mi range.

EDIT: Heck, the model 3 is 47k for 360mi range.
Not really the same price (Model S) or twice the range (Model 3) but that's OK. Like I said, that's why it's good more options are coming out.

If Tesla was the only true option, I'd never own an EV. They just don't pass my first test, I have to like the way the car looks. It's not a Tesla specific thing, it's a design language thing. They offer nothing in my car price range I would be willing to drive.

Wally86 12-08-2020 01:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dadhawk (Post 3391568)
Not really the same price (Model S) or twice the range (Model 3) but that's OK. Like I said, that's why it's good more options are coming out.

If Tesla was the only true option, I'd never own an EV. They just don't pass my first test, I have to like the way the car looks. It's not a Tesla specific thing, it's a design language thing. They offer nothing in my car price range I would be willing to drive.
At this point... I think every electric car is ugly. I hope they get better looking but until batteries make some leap, we're stuck oddball skateboards housing low drag coefficient bodies.

I like the rivian truck but it's vaporware.

The best looking car out right now is the toyota 86 :D


EDIT: Totally forgot: Jaguar iPace 70k/76k/81k for the three models.

Dadhawk 12-08-2020 01:16 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wally86 (Post 3391571)
At this point... I think every electric car is ugly. I hope they get better looking but until batteries make some leap, we're stuck oddball skateboards housing low drag coefficient bodies.
Fair point, there are some I could live with, but I wouldn't call them beautiful.

Quote:
EDIT: Totally forgot: Jaguar iPace 70k/76k/81k for the three models.
Yea, that's list but I've seen them for as much as $10K below list. Jag had them listed for less last month, although now the deal is around financing.

Red-86 12-08-2020 04:11 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by weederr33 (Post 3391344)
Not to throw in an endless debate and ethics, but does swapping to a complete line up of EVs REALLY out weight the environmental effects of pollution?
In places that generate clean, renewable electricity, yes. Not in Australia though, where we burn lots of coal for baseload power in many states. :thumbdown:

Red-86 12-08-2020 04:39 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by why? (Post 3391496)
There are not enough materials to go around
If we dump the things into landfill at end of life, that’s true. But almost everything can be recycled and reused... if it can be made cost effective. That’s they key barrier to wider scale recycling... that and the energy it requires.

We also need a change in thinking, from mindless consumerism and ‘engineered obsolesence’ to keeping, repairing and upgrading things instead of always buying a brand new one. Manufacturers (with consumers support) themselves have driven much of this waste and depletion of materials by engineering in obsolescence into their products, giving them a deliberately shorter life because they want to sell more new ones.

When it is cheaper to throw something away and buy a new one, instead of repair or upgrade the existing one, there is an inherently bad and wasteful incentive built in. We probably need to move away from ‘buying’ to ‘leasing’ for many products with rare elements in them so that there are strong financial incentives for the manufacturer to make the product last as long as possible in order to reap the greatest financial return.

Quote:
And let's also be clear, the power grid of absolutely no country is ready for even 10% of its population to have ev's, never mind 50% or more.
You might want to look at Europe, where some countries, like Norway, have reached significant EV penetration. Norway passed 10% of its fleet as EVs in 2018, and in 2019 56% of newly bought vehicles were EVs. So far their power grid hasn’t collapsed.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plug...cles_in_Norway

But sure, for most countries significant changes to infrastructure are required. Ideally we need everyone generating power locally with support from base load power as a backup, instead of relying on centralised base load generation only.

The obvious thing in a country like Australia is solar - every home should have it, and with sufficient panels and battery backup, most homes could be self sufficient... including charging their EV off their own power.

Even the design of EVs should factor this in... PV tech has advanced to the stage where not only could all the body panels be PV cells, but even the glass could as well. The car could literally be recharging itself as it rolls down the road, or sits parked outside.

Yes, it would be expensive, so govts would have to step up and heavily subsidise it until economies of scale made it cost effective. But much is possible if we leverage both science and govt to support it.

Irace86.2.0 12-08-2020 04:42 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by why? (Post 3391496)
There are not enough materials to go around unless we start mining asteroids and hit pay dirt on a massive one full of rare earth elements. And let's also be clear, the power grid of absolutely no country is ready for even 10% of its population to have ev's, never mind 50% or more.
Did you watch the Tesla battery day? If not then watch that and get back to me.

Only a small percentage of new cars are purchased each year (6.1%). Only a fraction of cars currently sold are electric. In five years if 100% of new passenger vehicles sold are EVs (unlikely) then it would still take 15-20 years for total adoption. Unless there is a mandate that all vehicles on the road be electric then 100% adoption may take another 100+ years following a typical S-adoption curve. There is time for utilities to scale is my point.

spike021 12-08-2020 05:31 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dadhawk (Post 3391568)
Not really the same price (Model S) or twice the range (Model 3) but that's OK. Like I said, that's why it's good more options are coming out.

If Tesla was the only true option, I'd never own an EV. They just don't pass my first test, I have to like the way the car looks. It's not a Tesla specific thing, it's a design language thing. They offer nothing in my car price range I would be willing to drive.
Teslas are everywhere here, so I see them all the time from all angles. I'd only be willing to drive the most recent MY S because it looks somewhat sharp, but all the older versions of it, plus the X's, Y's, and 3's look so bulky/bulbous and unwieldy. Yack.

Dadhawk 12-08-2020 09:21 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by spike021 (Post 3391628)
Teslas are everywhere here, so I see them all the time from all angles. I'd only be willing to drive the most recent MY S because it looks somewhat sharp, but all the older versions of it, plus the X's, Y's, and 3's look so bulky/bulbous and unwieldy. Yack.
Yea, lots of them here as well, believe it or not, GA has a large EV adoption rate. I see probably 5 Teslas for every 86 i see in a given week.

At least the CyberTruck has character, the rest were designed by used soap bar modeling.

soundman98 12-08-2020 10:54 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Red-86 (Post 3391618)
If we dump the things into landfill at end of life, that’s true. But almost everything can be recycled and reused... if it can be made cost effective. That’s they key barrier to wider scale recycling... that and the energy it requires.

We also need a change in thinking, from mindless consumerism and ‘engineered obsolesence’ to keeping, repairing and upgrading things instead of always buying a brand new one. Manufacturers (with consumers support) themselves have driven much of this waste and depletion of materials by engineering in obsolescence into their products, giving them a deliberately shorter life because they want to sell more new ones.

When it is cheaper to throw something away and buy a new one, instead of repair or upgrade the existing one, there is an inherently bad and wasteful incentive built in. We probably need to move away from ‘buying’ to ‘leasing’ for many products with rare elements in them so that there are strong financial incentives for the manufacturer to make the product last as long as possible in order to reap the greatest financial return.
time is circular!

we saw this in the 80's to early 2000's. the american domestics started floundering in comfort of the 'locked down' market of the 50's, 60's, and 70's.
besides the gas crunch, their quality and reliability standards relaxed, and it gave the opportunity for korean and japanese brands to step in.

the european parliament ins introducing right-to-repair legislation with the requirement that products be labelled with expected lifetime and repairability information, long-term availability of parts:
https://hackaday.com/2020/12/02/euro...rating-system/



Quote:
Originally Posted by Red-86 (Post 3391618)
You might want to look at Europe, where some countries, like Norway, have reached significant EV penetration. Norway passed 10% of its fleet as EVs in 2018, and in 2019 56% of newly bought vehicles were EVs. So far their power grid hasn’t collapsed.
meh, norway is a very oddball situation. the government literally paid the population to go electric. most of it is set to expire in 2021 last i checked. there was no VAT, and very heavy discounts on parking, tolls, and ferries, and special lane access.

a guy i used to talk to in norway ended up in a very nicely equipped tesla. he had said at the time all the tolls, parking, bus lane access, and tax reductions amounted to the car costing about half it normally would out of pocket for the year compared to any ICE vehicle, and he could still get those discounts for multiple years, making the car essentially free compared to the cost of driving an ICE in the same scenario.

https://elbil.no/english/norwegian-e...0roads%20(2019)


Quote:
Originally Posted by Red-86 (Post 3391618)
The obvious thing in a country like Australia is solar - every home should have it, and with sufficient panels and battery backup, most homes could be self sufficient... including charging their EV off their own power.

Even the design of EVs should factor this in... PV tech has advanced to the stage where not only could all the body panels be PV cells, but even the glass could as well. The car could literally be recharging itself as it rolls down the road, or sits parked outside.
everyone pushes solar really hard...
https://hackaday.com/2020/12/02/the-...f-solar-power/

also important to remember, solar works best in a very narrow range:
https://blog.spiritenergy.co.uk/cont...olar-panels-uk

Quote:
Non-optimal roof angles
Of course if your roof isn’t optimally oriented it’s helpful to understand how much output your system will lose relative to optimum. In the UK the output varies as you vary the orientation and the slope as follows. South facing, 30-40 degree slope gives the maximum (100%), all other outputs are given as percentages relative to this:

Solar performance by angle
https://blog.spiritenergy.co.uk/hs-f...e-by-angle.jpg
Even facing the panels South East instead of South loses 5% of annual output. Facing them East at an angle of 30-40° loses around 20% relative to facing them South.

And sticking them on a vertical south facing wall reduces the output by 30% relative to a 30-40 degree slope.
and none of this even gets into the battery tech and maintenance that would be required to store the energy for re-use later.

Dadhawk 12-09-2020 08:41 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by soundman98 (Post 3391706)
meh, norway is a very oddball situation. the government literally paid the population to go electric. most of it is set to expire in 2021 last i checked. there was no VAT, and very heavy discounts on parking, tolls, and ferries, and special lane access..
Not to mention Norway, in terms of geographic size, is about 50% of the size of Texas, and has a population of about 19.7M less people than Texas. (5M vs 25M).

WolfpackS2k 12-09-2020 10:19 AM
Any region/group of countries that decommissions nuclear power generation won't be taken seriously by me. Let's not forget that the EU has started importing electricity generated by coal plants in China.

Stonehorsw 12-09-2020 10:35 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by why? (Post 3391496)
There are not enough materials to go around unless we start mining asteroids and hit pay dirt on a massive one full of rare earth elements. And let's also be clear, the power grid of absolutely no country is ready for even 10% of its population to have ev's, never mind 50% or more.
This is the main reason that Toyota is aiming on hybrids, not full BEV (based on current battery technologies).

With that said, this can change in the future.

Stonehorsw 12-09-2020 11:16 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Red-86 (Post 3391618)
If we dump the things into landfill at end of life, that’s true. But almost everything can be recycled and reused... if it can be made cost effective. That’s they key barrier to wider scale recycling... that and the energy it requires.

We also need a change in thinking, from mindless consumerism and ‘engineered obsolesence’ to keeping, repairing and upgrading things instead of always buying a brand new one. Manufacturers (with consumers support) themselves have driven much of this waste and depletion of materials by engineering in obsolescence into their products, giving them a deliberately shorter life because they want to sell more new ones.

When it is cheaper to throw something away and buy a new one, instead of repair or upgrade the existing one, there is an inherently bad and wasteful incentive built in. We probably need to move away from ‘buying’ to ‘leasing’ for many products with rare elements in them so that there are strong financial incentives for the manufacturer to make the product last as long as possible in order to reap the greatest financial return.



You might want to look at Europe, where some countries, like Norway, have reached significant EV penetration. Norway passed 10% of its fleet as EVs in 2018, and in 2019 56% of newly bought vehicles were EVs. So far their power grid hasn’t collapsed.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plug...cles_in_Norway

But sure, for most countries significant changes to infrastructure are required. Ideally we need everyone generating power locally with support from base load power as a backup, instead of relying on centralised base load generation only.

The obvious thing in a country like Australia is solar - every home should have it, and with sufficient panels and battery backup, most homes could be self sufficient... including charging their EV off their own power.

Even the design of EVs should factor this in... PV tech has advanced to the stage where not only could all the body panels be PV cells, but even the glass could as well. The car could literally be recharging itself as it rolls down the road, or sits parked outside.

Yes, it would be expensive, so govts would have to step up and heavily subsidise it until economies of scale made it cost effective. But much is possible if we leverage both science and govt to support it.
1st: no, cars are not being tossed earlier. Average vehicle life has increase on the past years, and this trend will continue with improved materials and design. BEV vehicles probably will help on that also.

2nd: leasing option is referred on the video. Toyota and other OEMs sees the financial benefits of the complete lifecycle, which will be good for business and may also be good for environment.

3rd: I think that home solar panels is the way to go. It got a hit when Spain passed some laws trying to prohibit that, but I hope no other country follows same path.

soundman98 12-09-2020 11:19 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stonehorsw (Post 3391805)
1st: no, cars are not being tossed earlier. Average vehicle life has increase on the past years, and this trend will continue with improved materials and design. BEV vehicles probably will help on that also.
they're sure not making it easy to keep a car over 10 years though.

https://insideevs.com/news/376037/te...-memory-issue/

https://www.thedrive.com/news/34547/...tion-no-really

Lantanafrs2 12-09-2020 11:27 PM
Evs are not about eliminating pollution, just substantially reducing it.

Stonehorsw 12-09-2020 11:29 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by soundman98 (Post 3391967)
I don’t expect first gen Teslas to survive long. When any new technology appears, normally the life on that is reduced (see BMWs). ABS had a short life years ago, same with several actuators on the vehicle. After learning and improving, it increased the life significantly.

BEV will have to go through this cycle. Different companies are taking different strategies, Toyota is being Toyota and reducing the number of changes for each iteration (that’s why they’re recognized as reliable). GM is taking a more aggressive approach.
Others seems to be in trouble, like FCA (Stellantis may be their salvation), Subaru (will it disappear?) and others

Besides that, business models are being challenged, a total lifecycle may be the way to go to maximize earnings. But ir may also hurt other metrics.

Let’s see

Dadhawk 12-10-2020 09:11 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by soundman98 (Post 3391967)
they're sure not making it easy to keep a car over 10 years though.
Good reason not to buy either car brand.

GM is also doing this with SuperCruise, but there it makes some sense. The subscription provides updates to the roads where SuperCruise can be used, extending its usefulness. If you don't pay the subscription, all the other features of cruise control works, just not SuperCruise.

Having to pay a subscription for something like heated seats though is just massively stupid.

Kodename47 12-10-2020 01:54 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by why? (Post 3391496)
There are not enough materials to go around unless we start mining asteroids and hit pay dirt on a massive one full of rare earth elements. And let's also be clear, the power grid of absolutely no country is ready for even 10% of its population to have ev's, never mind 50% or more.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eaE5...hannel=TopGear
I found that quite interesting.

And while in the States Toyota is determined to bring V6s and V8s, here in the UK the majority of the line-up is already Hybrid only or small turbo engines. Same for Lexus. In fact only the RC F and LC come with anything other than Hybrid

Dadhawk 12-10-2020 02:01 PM
And of course there are the "exclusive because we are making this stuff up" articles already appearing with "our renderings" of the car. Example from autoexpress.co.uk The "Toyota BZ" done from the line drawings that were released.

Looks like every other EV Crossover.

https://media.autoexpress.co.uk/imag...e%20images.jpg

Ultramaroon 12-10-2020 03:57 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by soundman98 (Post 3391967)
Component level repair died in the mid 90s while I was still neck deep in it. It needs to make a comeback.

WolfpackS2k 12-14-2020 10:39 AM
Modern cars, and their accessories/technology, are more and more expensive to repair and keep on the road. Good luck convincing someone in a lower income bracket to keep a car worth $3000 when it costs $1000 to replace a headlamp assembly.

I strongly oppose "throw away" culture in all forms, but the automakers (and the regulations forced on them by governments) make it harder and harder to justify keeping older cars running.

Wally86 12-14-2020 10:58 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by WolfpackS2k (Post 3392947)
Modern cars, and their accessories/technology, are more and more expensive to repair and keep on the road. Good luck convincing someone in a lower income bracket to keep a car worth $3000 when it costs $1000 to replace a headlamp assembly.

I strongly oppose "throw away" culture in all forms, but the automakers (and the regulations forced on them by governments) make it harder and harder to justify keeping older cars running.

People will find a way. :)

Like the LEDs on this 86... I have no intention of keeping them on the car forever. I'm going to remove them and put them in a box after i get some Vlands so I can get back to having a headlight that costs $20 to replace instead of $1000. Some of this "forward thinking" is super backward for the consumer. I agree with you there. :bonk:

Irace86.2.0 12-14-2020 03:19 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by WolfpackS2k (Post 3392947)
Modern cars, and their accessories/technology, are more and more expensive to repair and keep on the road. Good luck convincing someone in a lower income bracket to keep a car worth $3000 when it costs $1000 to replace a headlamp assembly.

I strongly oppose "throw away" culture in all forms, but the automakers (and the regulations forced on them by governments) make it harder and harder to justify keeping older cars running.
There are used headlight assemblies and aftermarket assemblies that are cheaper. Just saying. Many cheap and base cars still come with halogen bulbs or LED replacement bulbs. Even if the LEDs are integrated, they typically outlast the life of the car. I just don’t see the doom and gloom here.

I don’t like throw away culture either. It seems like a double standard for a company like Apple to promote recycling while simultaneously encouraging us to upgrade phones all the time. Often manufacturers design in a product to fail or with planned obsolescence to increase profits with more turnover. This is true in the absence of regulations.

Many older cars can be driven just fine, so I don’t know what you mean. Maybe you can clarify. On the other hand, newer cars do have to meet greater demands from regulations, but this has always been the case. If anything, the cars now last longer than ever, so there is less need to upgrade, but repairs might be more expensive today than in the past, even if they happen less often. Although, the manufacturers definitely don’t want people hanging onto cars forever.

With EVs, there is the potential to have a car that lasts a very long time. Repairs might be more expensive if they are needed, but the incidence will be less and the service requirements will be much less.

Dadhawk 12-14-2020 05:01 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wally86 (Post 3392956)
People will find a way. :)

Like the LEDs on this 86... I have no intention of keeping them on the car forever. I'm going to remove them and put them in a box after i get some Vlands so I can get back to having a headlight that costs $20 to replace instead of $1000. Some of this "forward thinking" is super backward for the consumer. I agree with you there. :bonk:
Well, that's where OEMs piss me off. I understand parts aren't free, and you need to charge for them, but what do you think the profit margin on a $1,000 headlight is, particularly when it is a part on a $25,000 to $30,000 car?

I mean does anyone really think that a pair of headlights is 6% to 8% of the cost of building the vehicle?

Ohio Enthusiast 12-14-2020 05:47 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dadhawk (Post 3393076)
I mean does anyone really think that a pair of headlights is 6% to 8% of the cost of building the vehicle?
Reminds me of an article that tried to "build" a car from OEM components. I believe they reached about 10x the cost of the car, and that's without the chassis.

Irace86.2.0 12-14-2020 08:37 PM
I’ve read that too. I don’t think the profit margins are high. I think manufacturing efficiency and volume keeps costs down on the actual cars. It could also be because they have a mandate to supply and stock parts. I’m sure this would be at a huge loss if they didn’t jack up the price.

We use these or ones like these at work. $1200 a piece. They should just buy us iPhones. It would be cheaper. How is that possible? Economies of scale is my best guess. I figure it is a similar situation with cars. Parts might not get the same break. There are higher margins per part because there are more losses across parts.

https://www.hitechwireless.com/kenwo...hoCnKEQAvD_BwE


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