do's and don'ts of RWD in the FRS
 

seems like a good topic to have around here as this will be a lot of people's first RWD car. lets get into some of the do's and dont's while driving the car. and the proper way to recover if you do something wrong while on the road.

If you're new to RWD, do NOT turn the VSC and Traction Control completely off.

Don't chop off the throttle suddenly if you are turning or you are traveling at a high rate of speed.

Don't mash the throttle in snowy or wet conditions unless you are prepared for what can happen.

Don't start a sentence with "Hey guys, watch this!" and proceed to do something stupid...:D

Try to master heel & toe if you downshift a lot, it will save you the headache of spinning out in the rain or even dry.

This, im assuming, is the most easily overlooked thing when it comes to RWD...





Im not super experienced with RWD, just curious if you could elaborate on this?

How about, dont "slam" it into 2nd going around a turn from a dead stop... idk how it is for all cars, but i did it in my aunts camaro ss, all i have to say is good thing the road was wide and no cars were around haha.

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lift-off_oversteer
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snap_oversteer

So true! Even worse if it's followed by "Hold my beer!"

Also do go to the track or auto X. A great way to learn about your car and driving dynamics is to take the car to the limits, and going over them in a controlled environment.

That's why I was going to disagree with the earlier poster about not turning off the VSC/ traction control. I'd urge you to DO turn those off, so you can get a feel for how a RWD vehicle responds to certain conditions and driver's inputs; just make sure you do it somewhere safe, and take it slow. Learn how to reliably and instinctually flick the ass of the car around while doing a tight U-turn before trying to become the next Ken Gushi.

Agree. Deserted parking lots can be your friend in this regard. Understanding to turn into the skid when your ass gets loose in a turn is something that people need to learn how to do. Get to know the sensation of fishtailing when you've got time to learn and no innocent third parties at risk.

Might also help to bring an experienced friend along.

Like most racing, you want to do your shifting before entering the turn. That way, when you are in the turn, you are already at your ideal powerband.
Your focus durning the turn should be throttle and steering. Shifting even when its done right will upset the balance.

only place to take off trac and vsc off is during autox and maybe the track! Drive safe!

This is easy.

DO be careful and take the time to learn how to properly drive the car.


DON'T be a tool and drive the car outside of your or its ability. If you do then people will just point and laugh in the best case scenario or cry and mourn in the worst.

I'm glad to see this thread made, truth be told I almost made it myself. I'm going from FWD to RWD with the FR-S so this is good advice to have. Thanks!

Disagree.

The first time you want someone spinning out is not when they could be eating a cone or hitting a wall. Both of those environments put a premium on running very fast.

Again, I think deserted, flat parking lot with an experienced teacher is the best first place to learn.

Of course, none of this would be an issue if driving schools in the US actually taught people how to drive in adverse conditions, like how driving schools in Finland do it.

It's called lift oversteer.

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where do you guys typically find your big empty parking lots?

Note: These comments relate to the Scion FR-S in US configuration. The BRZ and the GT 86 may behave in a slightly different manner.

I drive carefully and well within control on the street, and so having the traction control and VSC off makes very little difference. I rarely reach the limits of the car on the street because these limits are very high for normal street driving. If I feel a little slip (I have quite a bit of experience with RWD cars) I usually take it as a notice to slow down. So far, when I have reached the limits of this car ON THE TRACK, it has been very controllable with no unusual or unexpected reactions from the car (like snap oversteer), so DON'T PANIC if the tires start to slip a little. Also, the car in stock form on a dry road with good traction does not really have enough power and torque to induce a lot of power oversteer, so this is not a primary concern. [Power oversteer is when you apply enough power and torque to the rear wheels to overcome their grip on the road. This causes the rear end of the car to slide out and around the front end of the car.]

If you are CLOSE TO THE CORRECT SPEED going into a corner (only experience will let you understand what this is), the car will PROBABLY make it through close to the correct line if you keep steering in the direction you want to go even if you loose traction a little bit. Keep in mind that I have approached these limits cautiously correctly, and ON THE TRACK due to my experience. If you throw the car into a corner WAY too fast, nothing will save you including traction control or VSC. If you do end up going WAY TOO FAST into a corner and get into a really wicked skid, do not try to keep steering onto the road. Look for a good exit onto the shoulder or other run-off area where you can safely slow down the car (EASE off the throttle in this case), or just put both feet in (on clutch and hard on the brake) and go along for the ride; in this case you will probably spin, but keep traveling in the general direction you car was going when you locked up all 4 wheels. [You need some experience and probably a school (or 3) to teach you how the scenario in the last sentence could play out and why and which option to choose when; it depends on how fast you are going and in what direction, the road conditions, how fast the car is rotating, what lies ahead, and your skill level :)]

I have a lot of experience with RWD cars and drive with the traction control and VSC off most of the time. Exceptions to this rule are when it is raining (for now as I have not had time to explore the reactions of these tires in the wet yet). I also leave the traction control on if I am tired or fatigued and do not want to concentrate as much on the car's reactions. I would recommend that newbies leave the traction control and VSC on almost all of the time. Put a good set of WINTER tires on the car in the fall if you live in an area that sees snow or ice during the winter. When driving in snow or icy conditions, you may need to turn off the systems to allow wheel spin to get the car going (especially important with AT), but you can usually turn them back on once you do so.

If you are interested in really learning the limits of your car, do some of the following:

Do take the car to a track that has some good personal instruction. Learn how to approach the limits of the car by slowly and controllably approaching the limits. Ask your instructor to help you learn how to drive without the traction control on once you have mastered the basics.

DO NOT race on the street or see how fast you car can go around a curve on the street. That is what tracks are for; learn how to drive on the track and get involved in some clubs that offer frequent track time and you will soon be bored with anything on the street.

If you are lucky enough to see significant snow (or better yet have access to ice roads on a frozen lake), you can cautiously explore the limits and dynamics of rear wheel drive at very low speeds (shut off the traction control and VSC). Make sure the roads, or parking lot you choose are deserted, or better yet, take a school on the snow at a track or on a frozen lake. Be aware that snowbanks (and especially ditches) can still damage cars, so again cautiously approach the limits.

DO take it to driving school.

A few weekends of driving my dads 85 corvette toy did wonders for preparing me for the whole new animal of RWD. So easy to suddenly be backwards.

"Don't" use the internet to learn to drive your car.

Don't stomp the accelerator, ever. Even at relatively low speeds it can snap oversteer. And it will snap oversteer if you stomp the gas while turning. Always smoothly accelerate/decelerate.

A lot of racetracks will have a driving school that has a traction control class that use a special car to simulate any condition they want. Such as this

https://www.prodrive.net/programs

Its funny hearing all of this stuff about entering corners and what/whatnot to do. It sounds like RWD is boring for regular driving and more fun for tracking. Because in my RSX I can shift or accelerate in a turn and it stays where I want it but it seems like with RWD its more serious business driving quick around corners.

I've shifted mid-corner in a RWD car. Just have to know what you're doing. And in general, RWD cars are capable of carrying higher speeds through corners than other drivetrains.

RWD is not boring, imo, whether driving regularly or tracking. Just because you're not being excessive or wild in normal driving, that does not imply that it's difficult to enjoy the handling characteristics of a RWD machine at low speeds. They are graceful and fun.

I think its because rwd>fwd because the effort is split between front tires (braking steering) rear tires (power) Instead of having the front tires do all the work. Enables you to corner more effectively and faster i suppose.

?? I have turned off traction control every single time i have gotten inside one of my cars. I hate it and if you are an experienced driver traction control can actually make you have an accident.

Is everyone really that new to driving are you guys trying to be funny? It's like this place is full of 15 y/o's with temps.

Agree. There's a tight U-turn I have to make near my house on a regular basis. With TC off, I can get the car to turn in the space available easily (no, no drama, no fishtailing, no screaming tires... just getting the rear-end to flick around).

The one day I forgot and left the TC on, I nearly curbed my wheel.

TC and stability control are useful when road conditions are bad out... this I will agree with. However, I feel more and more people (and manufacturers, and insurance companies) are treating them as a substitute for good driving skills. Skills that I've spent more than half a lifetime acquiring. I never had stability control on my RX7, WRX, R32 GTR, Mustang Cobra, etc... and never once wrecked those cars, nor even came close to doing so. And that's because I've learned how to drive properly.

The point of this thread is to give insights to people who are new to driving, or at least new to RWD.

Do manji mnaji's dont crash.

the fact that most people are probably coming from FWD is the point. in my SI i can pretty much do whatever i want, whenever i want, as roughly as i want mid corner and it is not going to upset the car to the point of losing control.

even though the frs is low power and well balanced. being RWD gives it the potential to catch you off guard if you're used to driving a certain way.

When you're applying or modulating the throttle you want to use gradual force in pushing down or letting the throttle (pedal) raise up...if you are applying throttle in a turn or just before a turn, and you suddenly take your foot off the throttle completely, the tires can unload, and that's when the rear can step out and come around on you...making the inexperienced driver go right into a tree, curb, or another car.

As others have said, take a driving course and learn how to countersteer and control slides...you will be glad that you did.

So, so true. I was used to the Si in how I drove. Now with the FRS I have a lot less body roll and feel more confident in turns. However, it's not as "fool proof" and I've already learned a few lessons the hard way (but nothing wreck worthy).

Also, to the person who said "don't do a hard second shift in a turn from a dead stop" -- yes, don't. The car WILL balance it out but it will get squirrelly for a bit.

Then all I can say is take a lot this info with a grain of salt. My best advice is to take your time and be careful. Trial and error. There is no manual for a bicycle. You just learn. I think that applies here as well.

I've been meaning to ask... is the traction control in these cars power based or brake based?

I agree, and I think that can be applied to pretty much anything one learns on an internet forum. :thumbsup:

I'm going from FWD to RWD so this is a great thread for me thanks! Another option for practicing is playing modern racing games with a decent steering wheel and use RWD cars. Some of you who haven't tried this might think it sounds ridiculous but my setup on ps3 with Dirt 3 and a decent wheel is really realistic. At least getting a feel for the steering differences and appropriate steering corrections. Virtual environment is always the safest and no consequences for damaging your car :P Plus if you're like me you're waiting for your FRS so all you can do is pretend...

I feel like the Traction Control cuts the power on me if I give 'er a bit too much in the corners...doesn't feel like braking is applied.

Actually, Chad, I think this is a pretty decent idea, as long as you bear in mind the lack of peripheral vision and G forces. Any simulation game should do, like GT5 or Forza 4. Take off the driver assists and play around in corners. Then it won't be as shocking when you practice with your new baby.

I agree. Feels like it cuts the throttle off, accompanied with that flashing yellow light on the dash, telling me "don't do that again".