Entry Level?
 

I got click-baited into reading an article on Motor1.com thinking there was some news about the next-gen 86/BRZ. Since there is no real news and they have to fill space, the article was just a bunch of artist renderings based on spy shots of a car clad in camouflage. Yeah, tack on some Supra fake vents and voila! Shame on me for thinking that there was anything of substance motor news journalists can offer. However, the often used "Entry Level" reference was used. I know better than to be insulted, but what the hell do they mean by that whether it be a car, a house or God forbid your wife's jewelry. By entry level, do they mean that my BRZ is just the first step to a Bugatti? Not counting the people that get an 86 or BRZ with the intention of tuning and/or tracking the car, there has to be a bunch of us out there that just want to drive it and enjoy it as is. Entry level for me if I care to consider the idea would be the Austin Healey Mk1 (Bug Eye) and the Mk2 Sprites each being at least 10 years old when I acquired them. The Bug Eye could get from 0 to 60 in about 20 seconds if the wind was not against me. Let's go back to 1959 and consider the owner of an Austin Healey; was that entry level and are there dreams of a Jaguar or a Mercedes Benz? Maybe the guy has a station wagon and a sailboat at the marina. One day after seeing a Porsche Cayman, I put one together on the Porsche web site and after wading through all the options, which takes forever, I got something that had just what I needed and a few wants thrown in. The car came to well over six figures in cost. Yikes. I actually found one in inventory that would work for me so I would not have to order. I remember when I bought my BRZ. The decision process is I want this and this and then you pick the color; done. And you have plenty of money left to buy two more cars. The question is: With your 86/BRZ, do you feel like you have arrived or do you have other ambitions? If it is some sort of status, some people spot my BRZ and think it is hot stuff. It's rare enough and not many know that it is a budget ride in reality. One young lady pumping gas in the car told me that she thought it was pretty. The next time I was in I found out she was referring to the paint and how shiny and sparkly is was. Mission accomplished, I don't need a Porsche.

Entry level meaning an inexpensive venture into an otherwise costly hobby- can be competitive as-is but is not fully track equipped like something triple its price.

Adding some tighter bushings and a turbo was all I needed to feel like it's the best car for me. I couldn't care less about the condition of my paint or scratches- it moves in a way that is how I'd like myself personafied on the motorway

No, you don't. What matters is what you feel, not what other people see.

I still want a Porsche, because I like Porsche's.

For me it's my first personal car.

First time driving manual.

First time doing track/autox days.

First time canyon carving.

First time commuter.


So yeah, it's my entry-level.

But damn, I could keep it forever and if I had way more money than I do now I'd totally get something higher up like a GT4 or something, and I'd still keep the BRZ. It's a fantastic, practical (for me) entry-level car. But entry-level doesn't have to mean it's the highest I'll ever go into the sportscar range, or that it means I'm a newb driver because I choose to keep the "entry-level" model.

Porsche’s are great, but I know plenty of people who own them and have driven my car and it always delivers smiles. Yeah it’s not as refined, but it’s a blast to drive. Plus you won’t spend nearly as much on maintenance. Certainly see a Cayman in my future, but for now the BRZ is a blast.

You make a really good point, does “entry level” mean you wouldn’t want to keep said item long term? I see it said about a lot of consumer goods, watches and even homes. It’s a strange concept to me. Like nobody could be happy with a 86/BRZ and not want to replace it. Something I have learned about “luxury” goods and those who buy them, they say those things to make themselves feel better. I’ve handled a brand new Rolex Submariner and a Seiko MM300. There is literally nothing about the Rolex that justifies its crazy price. You can argue little pieces here and there are better quality, but the price difference is staggering. It actually felt kind of flimsy to me.
I understand that consumer products exist at different quality and price levels. I just find it silly to say something is entry level or budget. Who doesn’t have a budget? Lol So if you own a Porsche 911 you just have a budget McClaren? The McClaren 720S owner has a poor mans Bugatti? Where does it end? [emoji38]I love seeing “if money is a factor buy X item...” Well who the F doesn’t feel like money is a factor?! [emoji28] I think a lot of this points to deeper issues of materialism and never being happy with what you have. I have no problem with anyone wanting to get a “better” car or watch or whatever, but it’s funny how things less expensive are looked down on.


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The twins, a Miata or an S2000 have the best smiles per dollar. Nothing wrong with something that is cheaper but does exactly what it promises. Because it is cheaper does not mean it is cheap. If it was not for the motor issues I would throw the RX8 up there too. Very cheap now a days, great handling, but some reliability issues compared to the others.

I'm still enjoying mine 8 years in. Nothing entry level about this car.

Yeah the Cayman is faster, but is it more fun? Can you pick up your friends at the airport in it? Shoot, when winter comes around, I throw some snow tires on mine and pretend I'm Colin McRae. I'd feel downright bad doing that in a Cayman.

I don't like feeling bad. I like my BRZ.

Friend, singular maybe. Friends, plural ? In an 86/BRZ ? Do your friends have no legs ? :confused0068:

:bellyroll:

I’ve had 4 passengers in my FR-S, the three in the back were girls, and everyone was miserable, but we got it done! [emoji28]


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It is not an entry level car and the motor news journalists know about it. Not even when you have the intention of tuning and/or tracking the car. Many of them will have an issue braking or cornering and talking fluently on camera even with the stock "Prius" tires. Check an example video below at 4:30 and there are a lot of them. So, they are just pretending and telling this to support the car industry. How people will continue spending double or triple the money comparing to a BRZ? How will persuade them dreaming to buy a Porsche?

https://youtu.be/T8UU6XrAygI

I felt really stoked I bought myself a car that hopefully had zero farts in it. I’m not sure what strata I’m entering but if it gets better, fuck yea!

I must admit a GT4/Spyder was my dream car but the gearing really turns me off, unless you take it to a track. I drive a lot with a friend who has a 911 GTS (991), but he can never get near the limits of his car on public roads and you start to wonder what’s the point. Don’t get me wrong they’re both awesome cars still.

Sums it up...

https://youtu.be/KjBs23XGIBs

The FR-S and BRZ have also been called Scion and Subaru's halo cars. The companies, salespeople, and journalists just say what they need to to get paid.

BRZ is a very important car for Subaru. In Europe it is currently the only sports car they can offer. A GT4/Spyder is a nice "super car" territory vehicle, but how many people can drive it close to its limits? Many people cannot even drive a 200hp car close to its limits.

@Flarpswitch I think you're reading too much into the term entry level.

Bottom line, it is an entry level vehicle into sports cars, because entry level simply means the least expensive way to get into a certain thing.

Porsche, Lambo, Ferrari all have "entry level" models into their world.

In the end, who gives a flip if someone thinks you have an "entry level" car? All that matters is you're happy with it. Look I could afford a much more expensive car and looked at more expensive ones when I bought the FR-S. However, it met the criteria I had at the time so I was perfectly happy with it. Still am 170,000+ miles later.

Is it entry level, yes. Do I care, no.

It is not the least expensive way to get onto a certain thing. A well conditioned used car with relative good chassis dynamics and half the power figures is all someone needs to start learning and have fun. There are too many options out there.

I couldn't agree more!!! Buy a car for what you think about it, not to impress other people.

Too many people care more about what strangers will think of their car than what they themselves do. Like a friend of mine, who is constantly 'moving up' to the highest 'number' BMW he can afford (which usually means high miles and marginal condition) because he thinks it says he's 'successful'. Likewise, too many people obsess with the 'numbers' of a car, 0-60, 1/4 mile, etc., for some kind of sad bragging rights at the bar or gym. Who cares?

The only 'arriving' in a car for me is when I get to my destination and turn the engine off. I'm in my 60's, and couldn't care less if some people I care nothing about might think that it's 'inapropriate' for me to be driving such a 'young person's' car, or that I should be driving some more 'age appropriate' car. Who cares what people who don't matter in your life think?

The only thing that matters to me is how a car feels for me to drive. I don't care about the 'numbers', but if I enjoy going down the road and rowing through the gears. That's all that should count.

Life is short and hard enough as it is. Just focus on making yourself happy and don't worry about impressing other people.

OK, point taken, and I agree. I almost included the phrase "new" in my entry but decided not to since most of the discussion was about available new cars.

Who says it is a young person's car? Have you seen these statistics?

https://www.ft86club.com/forums/show...&postcount=431

Again media tries to pass the message that this car is for young people, because it is an "entry level" sports car. Older people should be able to afford a more expensive car. Right?

The reality is young people buy used more often, and older people buy new.

Due in no small part to each generations availability to excess funds.

I am lucky enough to have both track and "sports" cars, and i choose to use the BRZ as my DD. It is just fun to drive! I have a Porsche Boxster that i now keep in Fl. because it is a top down car. It is nice but not the driving fun. The BRZ can be driven with enthusiasm on the street and not get in trouble. The others are fun, but three seconds of WOT and you are in loose your license territory. Even at the track the BRZ is great fun, my son has some "Hot" cars but really likes the BRZ to use for practice.
By the way the BRZ is far and away the least expensive car to use at the track.


In conclusion, This may be a starter car, but for me it is also a finisher. Not sure how many more i will be getting (74yrs old).

I can't think of a lower priced car in it's category, at least here in North America. So, in that way it is the entry to the sports car world. On the other hand, my car as currently equipped is hardly the same as it was as a stock vehicle in terms of power, grip, dynamics. The difference is that the process of making the car that way required my own work and learning whereas a Porsche Cayman for example would eat up my budget before maintenance and possibly destroy it if any components need replacement. I've heard stories for decades about $7K exhaust systems in the 928 and all kinds of exorbitant stuff. I don't need to prove to the world that my wallet can handle getting DP'd.

PS- I know Camaros and Mustangs are cheaper in the US, but unless equipped as such, I do not consider them sports cars at their entry level. I'll take a base twin over a base of either of those 2 other vehicles any time to start.

One way to interpret Entry Level is when it is put into context of a larger story. I made the acquaintance of the Unsers and then the Galles racing team some years ago. I saw Al Junior get his start in a go-cart; his entry level car and you know the rest. When the term is used in the pejorative sense, it is condescending and insulting. It is as if, “Oh, it’s only a 86 or BRZ, you can’t be a serious enthusiast.” Way to go marketing people, you sure know how to make potential buyers feel good about their purchase. For some this is what they can afford and for others, this is all they want or need. I met a guy who just bought a Alfa Romeo Spyder. Nice. He owns a Mazda MX5 Miata and belongs to a Miata club. Miata entry level? Nope, he’s keeping it because it is the right tool for the job at hand.

I'm not sure it matters whether it's called entry level or high end. It's certainly an affordable sports car, but that doesn't preclude it from being one of the most fun (similar to the S2000 in that way).

entry level.....in the 90's. performance is quite similar

Is it an entry level Porsche of today an entry level sports car? No way! If you get a Cayman, it might be their cheapest model offering. This doesn't mean that it is an entry level sports car. It is a very capable sports car. It just focus more on handling and vehicle dynamics comparing to the biggest 911 siblings, but definitely not an entry level for track days or sports driving and the like ...

Same can be said about the Porsche's of the past like the 924's, 944's and 968's. The majority were again 4-cylinder NA engine cars. Were they entry level cars? Even by today's standards they are not and they are quite capable:

https://scontent-frx5-1.xx.fbcdn.net...28&oe=5F7E903C (Continental's test race track)

If Porsche cannot offer nowadays a cheaper option in their model range the way they did in late 70's, 80's and middle 90's and Subaru can offer it, then it is an issue of Porsche. It is not an issue of Subaru or that the 86/BRZ is a "cheap" or an "entry level" sports car.

Were Porsche's ever "cheap" ? I would bet if you look at even the most budget Porsche 40 years ago and adjust for inflation I think you'll come out about at the cost of the lowest trim level Cayman today.

These cars are most definitely entry level sports cars. They are a car built for the street that can be used on the track as opposed to a car that is built for the track that can be used on the street. A much better choice for anybody that wants to get into car sports for the first time without forking over piles of cash or risk killing themselves or somebody else.
But, that does not mean that they are ONLY for entry level. A skilled driver can make even stock ones do things that the beginner can only dream of. The term "entry level" may seem like you are expected to go up to something else but really you can advance and never leave the platform. Once you have reached the full abilities of the car ( a much rarer occurrence than people here would have you think) then you have the option of upping the performance or moving on into higher 'levels of cars.
Calling it entry level is in no way an insult or slight but a simple and clear description.
https://thumbs.gfycat.com/DependentF...restricted.gif

I agree with everything you said Tcoat, but I "thanked" your post specifically for the Seinfeld reference :laughabove::bellyroll::laughabove:

I don't know is "entry level" is the right term. I'm not offended by it, but I dont find it accurate. They are certainly targeting a lower price point. These aren't luxury sport cars.

To me, "entry level" indicates something people start out on and then work their way up to something more professional as they gain skill or experience. That's not often how it works with cars. You buy what you can afford. I cannot afford a Porsche and will never "move up" to one. I looked at 10+yr old Caymans - not willing to go that old for that much money.

The twins are all about fun/$ that's obtainable for most buyers. They clearly cut corners to keep the price down and focused on keeping the driving experience primary. If you have the money to spend, you will find other great options with nicer interiors, better stereos, more power, built-in adjustable suspension, etc.

The 914 sold for like $3600 in 1970. That would be ~$24,000 in today's dollars. That was probably the only "cheap" Porsche. A friend in high school had one. The twins kind of remind me of that car. Bare bones, slow, and an absolute blast to drive.

Just because it is aimed at a "beginner" doesn't mean that it is restricted to one nor that you are expected to "move up".
It is not a back and white definition by any stretch but completely accurate when applied as a more general rule.

Interesting.

In 1970 a 426 Hemi 'Cuda was $3,832‬. Plymouth sold less than 1,000 of them because of the price.

A Corvette was $5,192.

So even the comparatively "cheap" Porsche (in today's dollars) was pretty expensive for the time.

See, I don't think "beginner" works either. I've had a VW Squareback(not really sports car, but a project car), Honda Prelude, MKI MR2, Z32, Mazdaspeed3, and a few grocery getters. I'm pushing 50 and far from a "beginner", but the 86 was exactly what I wanted. It hit the budget and the kind of fun I was looking for. If I had Porsche money, I'd have one, or a Vette, or Lotus, who knows. This was an economic decision, not experience or a matter of being a "beginner". As we've seen in a few threads on here, I'm not alone in this age group with experience with other project sports cars. Then, we've all seen spoiled kids given a Porsche or Vette, AMG or M series and such. They are 100% "beginners", but they have the cash and go straight for the "advanced" cars.

The twins are good cheap fun for beginners, or old farts that have been around the block/track a time or two. I think that is 100% what was intended from the very beginning with this car.

Agreed but that does not mean the car wasn't targeted at that group.
It most certainly is suitable for any group and my list is similar to yours (only about 10 years older for both me and the cars).
As I said it can be classed as an entry level car but it is not restricted to that.
People are putting far too much thought into the term.

Well, the 914 shared many parts with VW including the engine. Some never considered it a "real" Porsche, although it had a Porsche badge. A few people were even calling it a VW-Porsche. The 924 is a better example with a different engine and a base price of $9,395 back in '76. This is around $42,800 in today's price which is much cheaper to a base Cayman that costs $59,900. Same prices hold for Europe for 924 and Cayman. A $42,800 price is certainly not cheap, but it was the budget friendly car that Porsche doesn't have today. In fact the player nowadays in this price range is the BRZ and they know it. At least in Europe. I think in US you don't pay so much for a 86/BRZ, but you have also the advantage of the local Subaru factory that can amortize somehow any import taxes etc.