Let's talk race car. 2 options.
 

Ok, so existing are intakes, headers, exhausts, tunes and on the horizon are turbos and superchargers. Several companies offer suspension setups, wheel packages etc. Making this thing race ready for licensed competition seems like only a stones throw away. So now I need to brainstorm and I invite you join in on these 2 scenarios.

Scenario 1: Traditional road course sprint racing (aka: 30min all out races like Spec Miata etc). The class has a variety of rules but the big ones are:

RULES:

• The cars can't be lighter than 2200lbs or heavier than 3700lbs
• The maximum HP rating is 10:1. 10lbs for every 1 whp. A dyno may be at the track and winner may be required to dyno run at the event.
• Engine swap allowed but engine must be from same manufacturer (cannot exceed 10:1 wt/hp ratio)
• Forced induction allowed (cannot exceed 10:1 wt/hp ratio)
• Suspension essentially open
• Brakes open
• Wheels cannot exceed 10" in width and must be DOT compliant (like a Hoosier R6 or Hankook C51)
• Any aero must fit within silhouette of the car; aka: cannot protrude past the body outline.

Thoughts: (cost, performance and reliability in mind)

• FRS/BRZ (of course)
• 2600lbs with driver and cage and empty fuel tank w/ 200 or so lbs of ballast to corner weight the car.
• 260rwhp with centrifugal supercharger with aftercooler. Catless header, race exhaust ECU programming. Factory block/head (keep costs down). I think 250-260rwhp N/A is going to be far more expensive and will require race fuel (adds to cost).
• Oil cooler
• Pulley, clutch, lighter flywheel
• Suspension = dampers/springs/swaybars/chassis stiffeners/seam welding, bushings etc.
• Larger brakes and 3" brake ducting.
• 17x10 rear wheels and 17x9 front.
• All necessary safety stuff along with data acquisition and cool shirt.

I'm thinking $25k on top of purchase of car but with a certain degree of reliability.


Your thoughts?



EDIT: Scenario 2 put on hold for now as it's regarding 25 hour enduro prep.

Scenario 2 is then later doing the 25 hours at ThunderHill but that's a completely different ballgame so I'll hold off on that exercise.

sounds good... sign me up.

so it sounds like scenario #1 then?

Endurance or keep racing IT and save money ;) (not with an frs/brz obviously).

Or if you want to build a frs to race, maybe showroom stock?

go on the mazda boards and ask the spec racers what their annual budget is

25k is a rather low number to turn a production car into a competitive spec racer that meets all the regulations. For one thing you would HAVE to do all the welding, cutting, fitting and painting yourself.

Hell, a proper FIA approved race seat with harness and head restraint system would set you back 3-4 grand right there.

have you done this before?

He currently races in SCCA club racing, so yes he has. :thumbup:

Momo containment seat, expensive scroth harness and HANS/Necksgen is well under three. You can spend more in the seat but unless you need the weight off it there's no need to.

A great custom cage will run 1600-2000 for most unless the owner wants a lt of extra bars, gussets, etc.

keep in mind this is a new car, so cage builders might be scratching their heads a bit longer figuring it out

also way easier putting a cage in a miata.. :)

No they won't. Cage design is a pretty set science, nodal points are the same as they were before, door bars are the same, etc. hardest difference would be figuring out how to remove the dash to run the front bars down.

okay

An interesting proposition.. one of which I am going through as we speak. At present my 86 is having a work of art FIA and Confederation of Australian Motorsport (CAMS) cage fitted. As the A$ and the US$ are close it's an approximate. My cage is $3300 and through the dash.. they are removing and putting it back. I just bought two Sparco seats.. one drivers with side head restraint and the fight seat without and two seat mounts $1450- as my series is production car based I must keep the same size rotors.. I will use the alloy Brembo's for the front $1000 the pair, brackets made up + $350 or so. I know and please don't laugh but I will throw in some BC racing shocks for the moment.. they come with top camber plates too $1250, if they are not up to it then new ones for the 2013 season start. DBA 5000 series rotors front and 4000 series rear.. they are a sponsor but I think costings are on the forum. Two seat harnesses @ $300 each.. the ride seat is optional of course.. $2000 for 6 rims, and about the same for a good R Spec tyre. The exhaust is basic, straight out single pipe $500 at most. then there are smaller items like kill switch, smaller battery, window net, compulsory stickers and an extinguisher if you require one. The tow hook with the car is one and order one from Toyota or Cusco for the second. Strip some weight and give it a tune and you are away.. I know this is a very basic race car but I think it will meet most regs for a production based car.

Once your out there time to improve it as you need more from it and your budget allows.. BUT.... BE AWARE... No form of Motorsport is cheap.. None !!!

Entry fees, towing, fuel, brake pads, food and hotel are just a few items to give you a $2k weekend..

Once my car progresses I will post some build pics and in particular some cage shots.. this is the 5th cage these guys (Bond Roll Bars) are building for me and I would not go anywhere else.. and yes I have tested the work at 180kph... bent metal but not the cage.. I was ok and walked away.

Hope this helps for any prospective racers out there :)

I'd love to see the cage work :thumbup: I should post the race cars in here ($1700 IIRC) but that would be a bit off topic :P

I 2nd this.

Just for background I've been racing since 2004 and instructing since 2010 (volunteer and now hired coaching). Last year I won a heated championship ITA battle in my CRX.

I am very familiar with the Miata as well and no, I won't be racing a Miata. Nothing wrong with them, just not my cup of tea. It is called Spec Pinata for a reason :) In fact the damage on 2 of the 4 corners of my car are due to Miatae. There's no point on getting rid of what I have now to turn the same lap times.

The point of building the FRS is to go faster than ITA. However I like the idea of keeping it in IT (ITS, ITR?) but I don't know if it's going to get classed in an IT class. A lot of the non-IT classes are really open (like the one in Scenario 1; ST) and thus cost a lot of money to build a car just to compete, not to mention run up front. The car running up front of ST currently is a 100k BMW M3. So building a car to ST is a fun theoretical exercise but I'm with 000Racing on this one, I'd rather be in some production based class that's faster than Showroom Stock.

I can build the cage myself if I was really motivated but will probably have it built locally in the $2500 range. I really like the idea of racing an FRS and I like the rule set of ST. I mean, how could you not want to race an FRS with a supercharger, 10" wheels, aero and massive brakes?






Here's a shot of us building the cage in 2004 in the CRX:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v8...g/PA060049.jpg

A Shot of me inspecting my brakes at Mission Raceways (which is REALLLLLLY HARD on brakes)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v8...g/55482942.jpg

Tow rig:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v8...andracecar.jpg

Btw: I started this thread in this forum only because there isn't a "roadrace" forum. I know where not exclusively talking about engine/ecu/exhaust components.

You'll have to forgive my laziness to check the current GCR, but back when I was doing stuff in SCCA to become an IT car it had to be at LEAST 5 model years old. I doubt that's changed given the goal of improved touring. I almost built a ST car once when it was a younger class and it got stupid before I got 20% done with the car so I gave up, so I definately agree that ST will be a bad idea.

NASA might do a spec series, although I hate NASA with a passion soooo....

IMO SS is the best place for the car in SCCA currently, but I seriously doubt SCCA has classed it for SSB/SSC yet.

Sadly, the car is likely too new with too few out there being built as roadrace cars to justify them spending the time classing it.... yet.

Edit: Got a little less lazy and checked the GCR, the FRS/BRZ are not SS classified and IT is still 5 years. (well 4 previous plus current, don't know why they just don't say "5" :) )

Actually a well known cage builder already have their product line for this car. Contact Racecomp for more info.

There is a "Tracking" forum though.. closest thing. I should move it as I doubt there are enough road racers here to justify a separate subforum.

Autopower and Kirk I'd consider to save money for a DE car...

For a race car, anything non custom is a waste of money IMO.

This thread belongs in tracking section

-moved

LOL you beat me.

If it's like Spec Miata you will probably get caught in a crash on the fist lap. Why bother? Are you talking any car, or just BRZ/FRS here? In the end, a Miata or S2000 will probably win because Double A arms just work better. Without a budget, I'd ballast an Elise/Exige up to minimum weight.

So a Porsche GT3 will never win a race? :P

I'm pro double wishbone as well, but you can make macstrut work.

I agree on Spec Miata, it's a NIGHTMARE class, however it's the drivers. I've done races with 110+ cars and had no car to car contact for 14 HOURS, so how these spec miata guys wreck in 20-30 minutes is beyond me.

Oh and let's keep rollcage specific conversation here: http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14193

I have a race this weekend and the two run groups I'm running in are 50+ car fields and one of them is the same group the Spec Miatas are in. I run side by side with those guys a lot. I race with the ICSCC here in the PacNW, not SCCA because the local conference is a much bigger group, it is the big dog on the block with much less politics. Also Conference is run by volunteers and it's for the racer by the racer, unlike SCCA which seems like it's becoming more and more owned by SFI every year.

2 year belts... puh-lease!

I didn't buy the FRS for a long term car. I bought to make it a race car in 5 years so I have plenty of time to figure out the direction I want to take but it's fun to brainstorm. Everywhere I turn it's autox this and autox that (which is a very good thing) but very little on racing and part of that is classing it. (Same dilemma in autox).

Camber, roll centers, pitch, motion ratios... You can make the Mac work just fine.

The "ST" class I'm talking about isn't the same ST as SCCA. It's unique to the ICSCC as well and you hit the nail on the head with the S2000 comment but for a different reason.

If I could find an S2000 with a salvage title and a Comptech Supercharger on it, I'd probably do that (in a year or two). I know it can make 260-280 rwhp reliably on pump gas so that could be a great contender.

I have a sneaking suspicion that in 5 years I can find a salvage title FRS for CHEEEEEEEEEEAP.

You list 2011 ITA champion on your sig....so clearly you are not new to racing....

I'd also say your project budget seems reasonable.....the one thing I would NOT DO is run boost.....of any type..... Its just a reliablity thing...supercharger belts slip, turbos get silly hot....not to mention the increased wear on the driveline....

I'd make the car as light as possible and shoot for say 200whp with stock internals....I think a a full race intake-exhaust can get close to that....13-1 lb/hp is pretty quick as an off track weight....and it will be VERY reliable....

Another option given your budget is a full built race engine, with increased displacement....something with lightened interals that can turn more RPM reliably....if you can maintain the current torque curve but stretch it out to 8500rpm (9k redline) you will make 245hp with ease (more like 300 with more displacement)

The single best way to "win" in a given race class is to read the rules with a fine tooth comb and build the car precisely to the limit of those rules....

Well that's the biggest thing isn't. The Rule Book is always first. That's a problem grassroots racing in general has attracting new racers... The Rule Book.

Many "enthusiasts" spend $$$ modifying their cars, doing engine swaps etc etc and then they want to go racing only to find out their car doesn't fit in any class or the only class it would be legal in has $100k cars in it.

Without first doing any research on what class allows what, what modifications can be done and the overall costs, a lot of potential new recruits are immediately disenfranchised. That's not always a bad thing though; weeding out the folks that are easily discouraged by "rules" has its advantages too.

When I'm instructing and I ask the students if they have any intention of ever racing, if they say yes then I talk them about the importance of reading about the classes first before spending the money on a race car.

Don't mean to be a killjoy but isn't it wiser to choose a car entirely based on competitiveness within whatever class/rule limitations there are, as opposed to choosing a car and then trying to make it competitive within a class?

I love an unconventional entry or build as much as he next guy but it usually seems to be the tougher, more expensive and more labour intensive approach to being competitive.

If it's a power to weight based classification system IMO I'd prioritize lightness if the race distance is long and focus more on power, torque and mechanical grip if the distance is short (I.e. a sprint type format).

:thumbup: on all that.

And that's the problem you will have building an FR-S race car.. for now (I know you aren't planning on doing this next month anyways). There is no reasonable class it's legal for at the moment.

Well Dave, I think I'm going to stay in ITA (and try to further grow the class) for the next 3-5 years. It's fun, it's affordable and it allows me to race while also doing other things.

Just had a great couple races this weekend. Here's some video for fun..

Video 1: ITA battle between 2 past ITA champions
https://vimeo.com/47498942

Video 2: ITX, started from the back for fun. This is a "Spec Miata" group and several of the front running Spec Miatas are in a heated championship battle so I decided to start in the back out of respect for their points race.
https://vimeo.com/47503245

Sign us up to help produce and get a spec frs/BRZ series started. We are active road racers here in the Northeast and have been instructing for 10+ years. I also serve as a national race director for NASA and regional Timing and Scoring Director.

Let's get Subaru/Scion behind this and make a push toward a spec miata like group.

-mike

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