Will I feel it? (headers)
 

I know this is sort of wishy-washy subjective BS territory but if anyone might like to play along...

Thoughts on the following:

Assume the average spirited driver who doesn't plan to track their 86.

Money aside, is there realistically a noticeable enough increase in power to feel in everyday, spirited driving from a top end header vs a mid range header.. Will it be noticeably more fun to drive?

Say the ACE A350 vs Tomei EL...

I'm thinking probably not (just a hunch , i have zero experience to back this up...)

I'm also thinking if E85 were applied on top of said header setups the returns (in joy) are probably diminishing yet between the two.

What say you?

There are people that swear they can feel the very little HP a header alone get's you. Mostly placebo or confirmation bias I would say.
With a header, tune and E85 yes you will get a large enough increase to feel.
Whether that makes the car "more fun" is subjective and up to you.

No clue on headers, but you'll feel the annoyance of stopping for fuel more often and with fewer stopping options if you go E85.

E85 will give you the most "butt dyno" feel

the headers will only smooth out that power band and some even said my car "feels" slower cause it doesnt have that change in acceleration ( aka linear torque curve)

its like driving a rx8, damn thing is so smooth you never really get pushed back in your seat but the speed is there.

if you wanna get the most "oompha" for your money just get the oft E85 tune and relish in the power on your otherwise stock car.


for me? the most fun to drive is my 17 PP car modified in accordance with C Street SCCA rules and on 225 tires
spirited, whippy and dead nuts simple and cheap to play with. you learn that power is fleeting and once you get some youll want more.

This is just me but....
Headers just sound nice maybe a gain or to.

What I have always done is this: suspension upgrades, light weight wheels, sticky tires.
Why have a fast car when you can be a faster driver?

But it's your wallet at the end.

Noticeable difference after installing catless UEL header and OFT. The car is stronger through the midrange and the power/tq delivery feels more linear. Would definitely recommend even if you’re not tracking because honestly the torque dip and power delivery feel more lacking on the street when you’re sitting in that mid range the most. On track the revs are usually above it so it’s a non issue

I noted a difference after I got it tuned, the car was easier to rev, it felt unconstrained, smoother and sounded better.

This is an engine that needs to rev up to give power. At low rpm, even a Rotrex supercharger is hard to notice. It requires a bit learning to drive at high power rpm range when needed. I would recommend investing time on getting used to extracting the power of this engine before spending money on power upgrades.

That's for sure. OFT tablet stays in the car for just this reason.

i get mods because i like researching them, learning about the options, the excitement of placing an order. I love climbing under the car and installing them when they finally come, and i like driving the car after theyre on. you will not feel it in the seat of your pants if you put on a header and dynotune it. but dont let that stop you from doing it.

If you get a header you need a tune.
However you can get a tune without a header and feel something good. Also an OFT is easy to sell if you want more or go back to stock.


I had Gruppe-S and OFT and its great bang for buck.
Then I went to ACE with ECUtek, its another step up.
Would have been an awesome to jump straight from stock to ACE.

Would you do the Ace ECutek setup all over again? I'm considering the JDL EL ECutek route from my current OFT HKS setup. Wish we had a bit more data on the JDL but of well.

Different header configurations I've had since stock, in order:

- Stock + 93 oct
- JDL UEL catless header + 93 oct
- FT86SF catted header + 93 oct
- Stock + 91 oct
- Stock + E85

As with most things in life, it's all relative. You'll notice a difference with each change, but will get used to it. Then you won't notice it again until you go back to stock. For example, I'm running E85 now and have gotten used to it so it just feels normal and I don't notice it. But when I change back to 91, I can immediately tell the difference.

The only configuration where I constantly noticed the difference was the one that eliminated the torque dip, i.e., FT86SF catted header. The elimination of the dip is something you feel everytime you pass through it.

Just out of interest if the FT86SF catted headers seemed the best/most noticeable. Why did you go back to stock with an E85 tune?

I’ve been tempted to get the FT86SF catted headers, but I’ve been worried about being non-compliant with the road authorities.

Of course but its all about your budget. If money was tight the Gruppe-s OFT combo I coulda been happy with

Mainly because I moved to CA and didn't want to deal with a header in this state. But yeah, to me it was the most noticeable because it did the best job of flattening out the torque dip.

In my experience, any header that changes the shape of the torque curve will be the most noticeable (as opposed to something like E85 that keeps the stock torque curve shape & dip, but bumps it up uniformly).

We have many young drivers coming to our dyno expecting great numbers improvements after spending a lot of money. We let them know that the butt dyno feels improvement in direct relation to the money spent, and is not calibrated the same as our dyno.

FlexFuel FTW!!

The difference in the Ace header and something like a Gruppe-S header may show up on a dyno chart but nobody here is feeling a few hp in their butt dynos no matter what their wallets tell them.
Adding an uncatted header like that Gruppe-S and the OFT tune was for sure noticeable and spending almost 3x the price for the Ace and Ecutek is just for people chasing numbers or online bragging rights.

If the tune is good you will feel a difference especially on the highway after the tune I noticed I didn't have to downshift as much on the free way car felt more responsive ane less dull it's not drastic but noticeable and worth the time and money.

Just make sure to buy quality parts and don't buy twice.

Buy the parts that make sense to you. If you want to go all out and buy the best header made, do it. If you would rather have 85-90% in the power department and save that money for somewhere else, do that. Ultimately it's your choice.

I've driven a car with OFT and a JDL UEL header and for sure could notice it. Was it neck breaking, no. It did smooth out the powerband very much.

My car has stock power and tune.

This car needs down shifting during deceleration if acceleration is intended right after that so that the engine carries the momentum and stays in the power rpm band. I see comments about smoothing out the power band, no down shifting necessary, complaints about torque dip, etc. I have a supercharged FRS and it still needs down shifting with 50% more power and no torque dip. This car simply cannot accelerate until engine revs over 3000 rpm. If the engine is below 3000 rpm and driver intends to accelerate, down shifting is a must. There is no way around, no tune or header can fix this. Only help could be turbo with low end torque but with the high risk of blown out engine.

Header and tune are worth it. Buy what you can afford. I always upgrade one thing at a time. First was panel filter, not sure I felt anything. Then I went with a tune first. Not much difference at low RPM but much better at higher speeds on the highway when downshifting and passing. So $500 bucks for oft and it was a small upgrade. Then did jdl catless header and catted/resonated front pipe. This flattened torque curve as people say and you can feel it. Next I went with Crawford blocks which seemed to help at higher speeds as well. Done modding, nothing left to do power wise other than E85 or FI, which I have no plans for. I like my MPG on my 78 mile round trip commute.

I also own an 04 WRX that I have been modding since May 2003. Did the same thing one mod at a time. I can tell you that going stage 1 was very noticeable. Then stage 2 header and tune was a huge bump in power. Turning up boost works, duh. It’s why we love turbo cars.

Some perspective, I drive both every week. My WRX has many suspension mods and turns on rails, I have it set up as a very neutral car, no understeer with the rear coming around very nicely. I did not think I could have more fun in the twisties, but the BRZ with the ass hanging out a bit is more fun, maybe not safer or faster but definitely more fun.

In straight pulls, the WRX takes it easily, but the BRZ hooks up too, you just need higher rpm. I have to admit it does sound nice when I do it. Both cars you are breaking laws quick.

Of course you need to down shift. I don't think anyone said otherwise.

It does reduce the torque dip/crater therefore smoothing out the powerband.

How else would you describe it?

I don't think anyone is talking about mashing the gas pedal and expecting some kind of miracle. I read it as not as much power loss when doing regular driving.

:iono:

I you down shift when decelerating you don't fall in the torque dip when accelerating next. If you are driving above the torque dip and not expecting acceleration just by mashing the gas pedal, torque dip is not a big problem. And, yes, somebody posted about avoiding down shift (see above). Apparently, some expect that miracle.

One thing that needs to be said here that many people with the header and tune don't want to say is that this car is still slow and will stay slow with any mod short of FI.

The OP is asking "will I feel it"? And my answer is "no". Header and tune will not help making this car fast. Is there a 0-60 improvement posted that I missed? But modifying the car is fun as a hobby. I can't argue with that.

You can feel header and tune. But nothing compared to a turbo car. Is it worth the money, I can see both arguments. Modding is a bit of a disease, but I feel that I am pretty objective. For example, I would not do Crawford blocks again too much work for a small benefit.

One example is after my header and tune I was chirping all season tires a lot more than stock. Some small evidence of more torque. Not scientifically proven either. 😊

Put on more than one header, and you'll definitely feel something. Likely a bunch clunking and banging, and scraping...

I'm going to say something that sometimes isn't popular.

Sound is an important factor in the way a car seems to respond. A great sounding car will feel faster than a quiet one when it isn't. Its one of the reasons the car was designed with intake noise piped right into the cabin, to make the car feel faster than it really is.

A lot of people balk at the idea of buying exhaust parts just for the sound. A lot of people get hung up on dyno numbers.

I'm the opposite. I have no problem spending money on something completely cosmetic that adds to the enjoyment of my car. Putting the Corsa exhaust on my car made it feel faster even though I know intellectually that it added no horsepower or "throttle response" (which is 99% of the time complete bullshit).

So my suggestion:

If you're looking to wring out every bit of power for better track times, go for whatever will give you the best performance.

But if you're just talking about street use, take a good listen to the headers that interest you. Sure, look at their dyno numbers, but also consider the one that sounds the best to your ears. You will likely find that the better sounding option will be more enjoyable to drive even if the numbers don't support it.

Then decide for yourself whether the difference in price is worth what you'll gain on either metric.

^This, yep I did exactly the same thing, bought the STI axle back for the look and sound and agree it adds to the experience of driving. The car feels a bit angrier if that makes sense, it’s a personal thing. A catback exhaust does sweet FA powerwise.

What you’re both describing is the placebo effect.

No it's not. A placebo by definition is designed to have no measurable effect by itself, with any actual physical effect coming from suggestion rather than through physical means.

My exhaust is measurably louder and has an objectively different tone. Unlike a placebo, it's designed to have a physical effect on the driver's eardrums. The accompanying psychological effect comes through a direct physical manipulation. We're not imagining that difference in sound from a suggestion that it sounded different.

A placebo effect would arise from having someone replace your stock exhaust with another stock exhaust exactly like it and believing it made your car faster. We don't believe our cars are faster. We know they aren't. It can't be a placebo effect if we don't believe it's working.

Even if we did, it still wouldn't be placebo. It would be confirmation bias. But that's not happening here either.

I've never heard a good sounding twin on the street, autox, or track.

The engine/exhaust sounds like it's struggling and unwilling.

But I do agree, a good sounding exhaust note plays a big part of enjoying the car.

Confirmation bias is rampant on this forum.
We see it all the time.



Subjective. I do not hear any such sounds. I hear that odd boxer exhaust note. I love the boxer noise. I can not stand the sound of an inline 4 that so may love and want to get. They all sound anemic and whinny compared to a boxer.

Depends on the inline 4. Our MGs had a decidedly different sound from the buzzy Japanese straight fours.

My favorite engine sound is a straight 8. If you turned the band Ednaswap into an engine, it would be a Packard 8 cylinder. Such a trashy sexy sound.

Agreed. I should have specified Japanese 4s. Hondas, to be specific.


Pretty much any old flathead engine makes a sound that has to be heard in real life to be believed and understood!

I had a hard time when a WRX started to sound like a Honda (EL headers).
I'll admit there are some nice sounding EL setups.

However, I happen to love UEL headers, especially on this motor.

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QJGW3bBeEM0[/ame]

I have this conversation periodically with Jeeples. The Jeep XJ community is notoriously cheap, with no concept of the differences in types of headers. They'll buy $85 EL headers off Ebay, then in between complaints about the collectors cracking they'll whine that it's impossible to get a Jeep 4.0L inline six to sound good.

Then they'll hear my Torque Tubes, which curl back on themselves to fit unequal pipes in a relatively cramped space. "Hey man, how'd you get your Jeep to sound like that?"

"$1300 in the exhaust from header to tailpipe. Banks Torque Tubes, Magnaflow cat, Gibson muffler and ceramic coating at Swain." (Cheap by our Subaru standards, right?)

"Fuck that! I got my header off Ebay for $100 and my Flowmaster for $80. You just wasted a shitload of money!"

And your Jeep sounds like a lawnmower. Enjoy that drone.

https://shopspeedhouse.com/media/cat...01_af47ae9.jpg

I agree, the old MGs in-line 4 had a good sound, even with the stock muffler.


humfrz

Yep, an old Ford or Mercury flathead V-8, with duel exhaust and glass packed mufflers, made a real "smooth" sound.

:thumbsup:


humfrz

My Japanese 4cyl (gray car) from a past life sounded pretty good IMO (biased).

[ame]http://youtu.be/82kenDH8Ju0?t=508[/ame]