Considering purchase for teenager
 

Keeping it stock, you wouldn't need a computer. A bluetooth OBDMII reader and Torque would do to see what's happening if you want to.

Not tail happy unless you kick it on purpose. Having some restraint, it doesn't do it by itself.

Don't think there are special tools involved until you get deep into the internals. Most stuff is basic sockets and wrenches. If you have a shop, shouldn't be hard.

Tires tires tires for the conditions. Get spare wheels and snow tires for the winter.
Over in Seattle, it's even more mild. I don't have snows, but I'm retired and I just don't go out.
When I had to be somewhere every day, I still had snow tires anyway.

Track day instructor and 2013 FRS track car owner here. I will try to keep my thoughts in bullet format so this post stays relatively short and on point. Here is what I thought of quickly.

The twins can make for a great track/daily.

I own a 2013 with 50k miles, at least 20k are track miles with no issues. However I do recommend a 2015+ just so you dont have to deal with first production year issues.

The STX autocross class allows for a lot of fun modifications that don't impede daily drive-ability. The twins are very competitive in this class and there is an enormous thread on STX in this forum. Stock class will also be fun.

Overall the twins are a very safe car in case the worse happens.

In stock form they do tend to get a little tail happy but nothing that isn't to be expected from a rwd platform and nothing the traction control can't handle. Highly recommend keeping the traction control on for beginners. If it starts getting annoying, turn the VSC off for to make it more tolerable.

Look for leaking seals near the back passenger side and the front cover of the engine. The rear leak is an easy fix, use it to talk down the price, the front is a pain, avoid purchase or have it fixed by a Subaru tech.

It would be good to know what coil packs the perspective car has. Triangular plug style are good. flat plugs are 2013-2014ish spec and tend to over heat easily with continued track use. More info in other threads here if I am not clear.

If you do get a 2012-2013 make sure the valve spring recall has been successfully completed. Recall +3000 miles is a safe indicator that it was done correctly.

As for bringing him to the track. Just make sure he doesn't get to cocky and you should be good.

Not aware of any 2014 models with the valve spring recall.
It was only the early run 2012 and first few months of 2013.

Thanks - Fixed

Yes these cars are great for playing around.
Yes they are somewhat easy to work on.

Would I recommend it to a teenager? No.

You have the e30, just swap a straight 6 in there. That solves the lack of power. Or just buy a newer BMW

why not buy a S50 swap and do the swap with him, teach him how to work on cars and can have your own time together while doing so. If you do not want to go that far I would say just get him into a good E36 M3 instead of the E30. I will say do not let him drive the 1M they are appreciating way too fast for a kid to have a mistake with.

For a 16 year old, I would consider 1 on 1 professional driving instruction if they want to do track days.

- Andrew

Some great responses above, thanks all. I have a shop with a lift, although a drivetrain swap is not something I would do myself. The e30 is a 4door, and has too many little issues to mention to be worth salvaging. I would probably sell it or give it to my brother.

I should clarify, he would be doing HPDE with professional instruction. Even if they signed him off to drive solo, I would not let him truly drive solo until he is 18, regardless of what he was driving.

I should also clarify that my 1M has been autocrossed and tracked for years, and it shows. I’m not that guy who shines it for shows and puts painters tape all over it to prevent cone and marble marks. I give it a good finish refresh once a year and drive the snot out it. I will never sell it so I don’t care what they are “worth” to collectors who will never appreciate the drive. With traction control on, and an instructor in the seat next to him, he would be safer than on the street. Two drivers at the track will definitely eat up consumables, which are pretty expensive on that car, and I think he will learn more in a momentum car.

I am curious how an e36 M3 would be safer. That would certainly have more reliability issues. (I’m a BMW guy myself, but I’m not a fanboi, LOL)

Sounds like you should get that e36. I would.
As for safety, just get life insurance. If your going to go there is nothing you could do.
If you are worried about getting hurt then don't do said activity. Then again you'll have better odds on a track than on the street.

I've instructed 16 year olds on track in FRS/BRZ, they make great track cars and are excellent to learn with.

I'd recommend looking for a '15 or '16 and setting it up for SSC. It's a spec class so you don't go overboard with parts and don't feel like you cheaped out on anything. They also make great track cars (I recommend an oil cooler for serious track use or if you live in a hot climate). SSC cars are just as comfortable as stock on the street with the exception of if you go with a loud exhaust (you can do a catback in the class and that's usually a turn down straight pipe which can get loud, but you're not losing much just sticking with the stock setup).

Like mentioned before, the 2013's have a few first year problems and the 2014 have the coilpack issues (at least most of the 2014's). I've got 60k miles on my 2014 BRZ with over 250 autocrosses and 80 trackdays.

Not sure where you are coming from. I am not concerned about either of us dying on the track. Your last sentence is consistent with what I had said about safety on track with instructor versus driving on the street where we are surrounded by idiots. I think we are in agreement on those points, but I don't think you recognize that.


:iono:


A car with less power is a better learning tool for a novice, which is the main reason I don't want him learning with a 3300lb car making 450tq/380hp to the wheels. My e30 has numerous small issues that make it unreliable for HPDE, so I am looking for a better, newer, more reliable car, not a more powerful car for him. You seem to think I need a slightly less old BMW or a motor swapped BMW, which excludes you as a useful source of information. I don't need to be convinced to buy life insurance, or to stop going to the track.


I am about ready to buy one of these for a specific purpose, which is why I posted this question in this subforum.


:sigh:

When the plugs/coils fail, can they be replaced with the updated parts from later years, or are they incompatible? Would that move the car out of stock class?


I get that the car would be better with a build to ST or SSC, but for autocross, I think newbies still learn better in a stock car. Once you build into a class, you really need to do everything allowed in that class to be competitive, and it doesn't change the flesh and bones sitting in the driver's seat. Its already a stretch to consider buying him a car like this, let alone prepping it beyond the basic necessities for track reliability.

Your son is lucky.

I hope he also makes good choices.






I have a 2013 with 81k miles. I had the engine recall work done successfully under warranty and replaced coil pack #1 for $85.00 myself. (Coil packs being replaced shouldn't change any classification) Other than that, its been hassle free for 7 years.



"Special" tools I bought to work on this car:

Pass through socket set - for installing lowering springs without letting the shaft of the strut spin.

36mm axle nut socket - for the axle nut

ball joint separator - works great to install extended studs, etc...

90% depends on how your son is as far as being responsible. If he is then this is a great car for him. Just make it a rule to keep the nannies on when on the street. Get him some instruction at a reputable HPDE event.

He is responsible, isn't a daredevil, and never shows off. I am on the fence about this being a daily driver for him, but I don't worry about him doing something stupid at the track after saying "watch this", and really don't think he would do that on the street either. (but a parent never really know what they do when they are alone)

The only way to update the coilpacks is to swap out the engine wiring harness (I had mine done under warranty), otherwise you just treat the coilpacks as consumables and swap them as they go bad. A stock car is perfectly fine for autox and track. You might be able to find an SSC car for sale on the forums for the same price as a stock example, but the only real issue the stock car has is the lack of front camber which leads to excessive camber wear.

The SSC class is a spec class and you have to run the whole kit to run in the class.

Well then this would be a good way to see how he does with responsibility. Not that these cars are fast however they do instill a certain amount of confidence and there's a fine line there. This is a tough decision as a parent and you're the best one to make the call.

I don't think you could do better than a FT86 or S2000 or Miata as a track car to learn on. All are reliable, lightweight, well-balanced at the limit and will let you play with understeer and oversteer. If you do get an FT86, I'd get a 2015+ model to avoid the hassle of replacing coilpacks. Add an oil cooler, track alignment (camber bolts or tophat) and pads and he should be good to go.

My dad stopped buying me bicycles once I was old enough to mow peoples lawns and earn money myself :D

I would love that my kid had something that new and safe as a first car. My first car cost 300 bucks and didnt have 1 airbag. The FRS did well in safety test and has 6 airbags! An E30 turns into a wet noodle if you hit something. As for him doing something when you arent at the track, we have all done it and learned from it. The good and the bad. He sounds like a good kid to me.

Whatever you do, dont listen to the engine swap guys. Those are the ppl that show up to an event, drive for 40 mins and spend the rest of the event working on their car. I've been there and see it all the time. Keep it easy to maintain. If the engine pops in the FRS, its 2500 bucks and about 5 hours before its ready to go again. The are super easy to work on.

Bring him to a proven track day organizers event with proper instructors or 1 on 1 coaching if you have that dough. There are 14 year olds racing Spec Miata in my region. Like I said in my first post, keep the TC on and dont let him get cocky and he will be fine.

I have seen that many times . . . I always feel bad for those guys!
Thanks for the input.

@CarJunkie,
I guess I totally missed what you meant.

Either way, why don't ask your son what kind of car does he want? He might be a closet mustang fan. Lol I'm joking. But still ask him.
It sounds like you are using your son as an excuse to buy yourself a nice track toy. Lol that's the way I'll sell it to my wife.

My personal 2 cents and please feel free to ignore me. If you want your son to truly appreciate his 1st sports car, don't buy it for him. If you want to be a great car Dad let him co-drive your RWD car at autox and hpde events. If you're nice enough to buy him a car to get around, buy him a used FWD car with a manual trans. One that's relatively safe and not too much power.

From personal experience I took a lot of pride in purchasing my first sports car with money I earned. Friends who were given things (nice cars) growing up never had the same appreciation for them. 90%-95% of teenagers who like to drive are going to turn the traction off at some point with RWD and most likely sail it off the road. Not saying that is what your boy would do.

If you really want him to love driving and become a hot shoe, get him into kart racing. Again this is just my opinion.

Of the people i knew that have had a car newer than 15 years gifted to them at 16-18, many put it in a ditch or oncoming traffic(one special case got run into by a school bus), with the rest treating it like it was disposable.

I'm a firm believer in that everyone's first car should be something dirt cheap, 15+ years old, and 50/50 that it will start every time the key is turned.

It makes any future vehicles like trading in a mountain bike for a space ship. It's so much easier to appreciate nicer stuff when starting out with something less.

I'm still not entirely used to power windows...

Lots of great advice. My 1M will still be my track toy, but probably isn’t the best novice car. The BRZ wouldn’t be his, and my wife is pretty excited to have something fun to drive also. His daily driver is a well used Prius, and that will probably remain the case.

I am one who spent a lot of time at a track over my life. I have a BRZ because it IS just fun to drive. I now have a grand daughter that is driving and have been teaching her to drive with a stick. She is now quite good and look forward to having her drive it at the track as a very good learning tool. I have modified the engine and little else. I have Ecutek tuning for the engine because of the super charger (one of the first sprintex) so I asked Zack to fix me a driver training program. Easy on the throttle, lower rev limit.
Since you seem to be of the same mind, a stock BRZ or FRS is about as good as you can get for a learning tool. By the way her dad has a Ford Focus RS and she is now driving that but only under supervision. He is also my driver for the Noble M400 as I am getting older and I would like to think I am smart enough to no I am no longer competitive, I still drive it on the track for fun, but not racing. Think of me as on the back side of life but not giving up yet. That was one of the reasons I got the BRZ, I can still drive it 10/10 ok maybe 8 or 9/10 at the track.
I have been lucky enough to have driven many cars at the track and I can say without hesitation the BRZ platform is as good a learning and practice car as you can get. You will not be disappointed in this stock car. Later you might think about upgrading parts as he learns but start stock and learn to drive properly with an instructor (usually not dad).




I do understand soundman98 but you were talking about a track or autocross car.

These cars are great at winter and snow driving with the correct winter tires. Getting a 2015 or newer is the way to go since they ironed out all the odd little issues by then. These cars are a blast on track and off. And if you do get the modding bug the aftermarket is massive.

LOL, I hope I won’t.

Just quoting this in particular because it's your last post.

Knowing how the N54 boost comes on (especially since you have it tuned) I would not have your son learn to drive the 1M on the track. You can sort of develop bad tendencies with how boost comes on with throttle control. Issue being you can lose a car real quick if boost decides to hit mid-corner...TC or not.

My first car was an E46 325xi. Awful car, 130k miles on it with worn dampers and all season tires. I only did autocross in it, but it was easy with crappy tires to experience threshold of grip and know the limits of the car.

I then bought an E86 M Coupe - Threw some Hankook RS3s on the car with a massive bar and continued to autocross and started hitting the track in that car. Being ~19-21 at the time I realized that speeds I was achieving (140ish at Mid-Ohio) were too much for me and I was kind of scared of bundling the car. I pushed past my comfort zone.

Bought a E82 128i and prep'd it for SCCA STX Class. Full prep massive money pit sink hole. However started learning how to tune suspension, handling dynamics. Never actually got on the track with that car (mostly because I had a race seat in it without a prior cage...thanks STX rules) but was more comfortable with "feeling" the car and extracting speed.

Sold the 128i and now own the FRS going on 4 years. Same thing as prior, SCCA STX prep build and all that fun stuff. However IMO one of the easiest cars to drive and extract speed from and comfortable at the limit of grip. I think buying into a BRZ/FRS platform and slowly making steps in modifications like your 1M to the FRS is a great way for your son to learn the vehicle dynamics and then slowly modify to suit a track car lifestyle. I think it's a great progression plan...


FWIW - If you don't have one already, I'd invest in some safety gear and bring your son up the correct way. I run with a Simpson Hybrid S even with stock seats/airbag.

Is this thread still going?? The teen will grow out of his ager.. BTW, the car is a great little runner, I really enjoy my BRZeee..

Hehehe, you could always put a straight exhaust on whatever car they get. I bought my first car myself, a 1975 Ranchero with a 351W and glass packs. Until I had it, my parents were pretty sure I was a great driver, because I was halfway sane while they were in the car with me. After the Ranchero, they knew better. They could hear me rev it out as I left the neighborhood.


I'd almost be in the "Why don't you buy them a manual econobox first?" crowd, but I had my dad's 1982 Escort sideways on two wheels at one point*. A lack of power and front wheel drive is no cure for being a maniac.







*Do not try this at home. I was fortunate (not skilled) enough to save it. He didn't know about it until I told him decades later.

The tune uses a linear throttle map which is easier to modulate than the stock tune, if you can believe that. When throttle is added gradually through mid corner, there is no appreciable lag. Must be judicious with the right foot for sure.

Thanks for the HANS suggestion. I checked it out. They make it sound like you need a buddy to get properly set up in the car. Is that always needed, or just when you make your initial adjustments?

Yea makes sense. I've driven some JB4 N54 cars (135i) coupled with a Stock 1M and I would say both surge boost pretty bad. Could have been the owners map setting

Just initial setup - you need someone to be wearing the helmet and helps to have someone else adjust the tethers to limit proper head movement. Throwing on the HANS and clipping to the helmet is a one person thing.

Recommend trying to find a race shop to try on in person. Sizing chart per Simpson I wear a Medium/Large, in person the straps are such I wear a small. The backbrace/mold is the same size throughout FWIW, only thing that is different is strap adjustment and length

What I meant was continuous 1 on 1 instruction with a professional driver or a driving school.

- Andrew

I still don't understand what's wrong with using the E30 as a track rat...there's few better vehicles to learn handling dynamics on, or with a larger aftermarket. And if anything it'd make him faster in and more appreciative of the 86 platform if/when he finally decides to move up...

If you do use it for DD there are many tools to monitor driving habits. Many years ago I had a plugin OBD2 that recorded time and speed only. The kids were going to school 20mi. away. It did not take lone to see they were being responsible drivers. Put it back in the box, I will bet it is still in the basement somewhere.

The stock throttle map is designed to produce 90% response by 50% pedal. It makes the car seem fast, but isn’t easy to control. JB4 will accentuate the problem. Proper flash tune (I use MHD android flasher) rewrites the throttle map and I use the linear option, which tries to make the response feel mote like a cable activated throttle. It’s much better.

Thanks for the feedback on the HANS...may pull the trigger on that.

Here are my thoughts on that:

It has the ETA motor, which has a restrictive head, single valve retainers, 4500 rpm redline, built for fuel economy not power. I don’t want to motor swap it and this is not a racing motor.

The rear main seal leaks a little. 2-3 drops a day, but enough to fail HPDE tech.

The rear diff output seals leak, also an inspection issue.

It has a nice leather interior with front seats that are made for comfort and have minimal bolstering. It was work to stay in the seat at autocross.

Because it is not a 325i, it was not built for sport. The steering rack is dreadfully slow. A 60ft slalom required shuffling hands on the wheel for each direction change because it required well over 180 degrees of wheel movement....in a slalom! Done ask me about the pinch corners, LOL

The car is a rare example of an e30 touring sedan that has not been modified. The interior is perfect, no cracks on the dash, no tears in the leather, no flattening of the drivers seat bolsters. No accidents. It drives great as a touring car and I don’t want to change that.

The combination of all the little mechanical issues that would have to be fixed (but are otherwise minor), the degree of chassis modification needed to make it satisfying on the the track, the need to change at least the drivers seat, and that I like it the way it is when I go for a back road drive, make me hesitate to make it a track car.

And as mentioned above by others, it would turn into a wet noodle in a wreck and has no airbags.