|
DIY LS3 swap kit - long term testing & improvements
Hi at all,
I want to give a short overview of my current swap project on a 2013 Toyota 86. I decided to design/develop the mechanical swap components myself. I want to develop a "as complete as possible" HowTo once the project is finished. As well I develop all custom parts using free CAD software. When all components are tested, I´m planing to upload the data to a public CAD sharing platform, giving companys and individuals the option to reproduce, modify and improve my kit. (work in progress) A short introduction of myself: I´m a 35 year old projectmanager and former mechanical engineer living in east Germany. I´m into cars since I was 18 and did nearly everything, from hifi build over turbo kits, paintjobs and engine swaps on my own. For sure with changing quality of the result. :bonk: The Kit shall include engine and trans mounts, AC line adapters, acessory idler pulley bracket, ignition coil relocation brackets + valve cover liners, air filter connector with MAF flange, air filter box and cold air intake. On side of the electronics the AGT engeineering CAN Translator will be used. This translator is made by @toddy101 , who is also active in this forum with a engine swap thread. Credits also goes to @spitsnaugle , who gave me some great ideas for my build with his documented LS swap-thread. Currently the first version of all basic parts is under production. Not yet under manufacturing is the airbox, which is already prepared in CAD. Some parts of the CAI, which will be located under the bumper, still needs to be modeled. The car before the swap (even if this will not really influence the body): https://abload.de/thumb/yrofb.jpg https://abload.de/thumb/l0jkc.jpg https://abload.de/thumb/4yjec.jpg Everythings takes place in my private garage without lifter/ramp: https://abload.de/thumb/dsc_21874xkrs.jpg Current status of CAD-development: https://abload.de/thumb/swap-kitv0.1overview05ckd1.jpg https://abload.de/thumb/swap-kitv0.1overview0q5jbu.jpg https://abload.de/thumb/swap-kitv0.1overview03pk4q.jpg https://abload.de/thumb/swap-kitv0.1overview0injue.jpg https://abload.de/thumb/swap-kitv0.1overview0f7jna.jpg https://abload.de/thumb/swap-kitv0.1overview03xje1.jpg https://abload.de/thumb/swap-kitv0.1overview01jjqm.jpg https://abload.de/thumb/swap-kitv0.1overview0fgkfi.jpg https://abload.de/thumb/swap-kitv0.1overview0mikxd.jpg https://abload.de/thumb/swap-kitv0.1overview1ygk20.jpg https://abload.de/thumb/swap-kitv0.1overview1gikev.jpg After those pics of the status of non-physical swap parts, here are some impressions of the current "real" progress: https://abload.de/thumb/dsc_2368dzky8.jpg https://abload.de/thumb/dsc_23788pjr2.jpg https://abload.de/thumb/dsc_233569ke3.jpg https://abload.de/thumb/dsc_2329vikkm.jpg https://abload.de/thumb/dsc_2367hlkqq.jpg https://abload.de/thumb/dsc_22444ljxq.jpg The layout of the transmission and axle: https://abload.de/thumb/getribebersetzungentr93ken.jpg I decided to buy a slightly crashed 2013 Camaro SS to get the engine and some other parts. Initialy it was my intension to use also the Camaro TR6060 trans for the swap. Since I learned that this would mean essential metalwork on the tunnel due too the wide forward receptecle of the remote shifter, OR a significant mod of the trans endhousing, I changed plans and will use a T56 Magnum F for my swap. This also makes things easier for the driveshaft. Nevertheless, since the prices for LS Engines and all the other US car parts are very high here in europe, the decission was still OK. Overall I will have the engine, harness and ECU as well as some other stuff for zero cost after seeling all other parts of the camaro as well as the no longer needed parts of the 86. Only thing missing is the transmission. Ofcourse all components which are not OEM will be additional costs. Overall this swap is pretty much 25% higher in costs compared to any swap made in the US due to import/customs and the fact, the 90% of the necessary parts need to be shipped. This being said, even with shipment and customs added, many parts are cheeper when I ship them compared to the price I get at local store/seller. For sure its also possible to use a GM crate engine with the swap kit components. But I also hope to gain some advantages by using an engine out of car with all official documents in matter of the legal approval (especially in matter of environmetal safety topics) we have to gain here to be allowed to bring such a modified car onto public roads. Just for fun, here are some pics of the Camaro: https://abload.de/thumb/dsc_2027btjvk.jpg https://abload.de/thumb/dsc_202971jnu.jpg https://abload.de/thumb/dsc_1728pfjmv.jpg https://abload.de/thumb/dsc_177524j4f.jpg The HowTo will be finished once I´m close to the end of the project. I have a prallel thread in the german 86 forum where also some more development steps are descriped more detailed. Since I dont have the time to tranlate everything, I will only update this thread in longer time steps. For now, here is the parts list I used for my swap, acessory setup and so on: EDIT - 05/05/2020: Update of the parts list, still not complete but getting close. Most custom parts not included yet. Some listed items are sourced at German companys, but should be easy to find in US/North America/Australia. Engine: LS3 from Camaro SS 2010-2013, E38 ECU (alternatively GM crate engine 430HP version, some parts for belt drive may already be included when using crate engine) TREMEC: Gearbox - TUET16362 Clutch bell - 1386-212-005 Slip Yoke - SDH-2-3-6041X Clutch Bell Screws - ICB-551684 Radiator: I have to correct myself concerning what I stated here before. I had to learn that the 86 chassis has simply to small space for a radiator with integrated water to oil cooler and dramatically lacks of airflow through the engine compartment with a big LS block fitted in it. The additional heat load of the oil system exceeds the already poor cooling capacity of the relatively small radiator. As well, the radiator desgin of the skunk2ultra I used is very poor. The fins are much to big and therefore the row count is very low what means an overall small surface for heat exchange, even while beeing hell of a big beast to fit in the available space. Another thing I learned: DO NOT BUY A MISHIMOTO FAN SHROUD!!! The shroud itself isnt bad, but the fans used are the biggest crap you can get. The only thing they are able to is creating enormous noise, but the airflow is way below the factory fan set. I disassembled one of them partly and found out that they are very cheap noname chinese fans. They can be ordered on aliexpress for below 10 bucks. That also reflects the performamce you can expect. I finally went with a Koyorad aluminium radiator and the factory fan shroud. The result was far better as with the setup of the skunk2ultra and the Mishimoto. Better air flow, more space for the air to escape between radiator and engine, better overall fitment, less noise and lower coolant temps. To take care of the oil temps I additionaly installed a Setrap Slimline oil cooler and an inline thermostat. The thermostat is underneath the air box, the cooler itself is installed under the front crash bar. For reliable coolant temps under all conditions still a vented hood will be needed. Otherwise overheating might still be an issue if ideling or stop&go traffic with AC switched on at high ambient temps. A further improvement might be the verus radiator and as well a radiator scoop to prevent any hot air beeing pushed back out of the engine compartment and infront of the radiator. Thats also important for Installation of any aftermarket radiator and Fan shroud: Make sure to seal the radiator to the vehicles frame as good as possible so that no hot air can flow back from the engine compartment (pressurised by the fans) and infront of the radiator! GM: Alternator bracket ZL1 Camaro - 12578550 Air conditioning compressor bracket ZL1 Camaro - 12622243 (must be reworked for oil dipstick) Air conditioning compressor ZL1 - 22785352 Poly V belt A/C compressor ZL1 - 12622244 Alternator ZL1 Camaro - 23482914 Crankshaft damper / harmonic balancer Corvette C6 - 12560115 12674582 Water pump Corvette C6 - 89018052 (alternative: 12681186) Belt tensioner Corvette C6 - 12569301 Plug for cooling water port LS3 block - 12561663 Exhaust manifold gasket LSx (2x) - 12617944 Crankshaft damper screw LSx wet sump - 12557840 Water pump gasket LSx (2x) - 12630223 Gasket engine front cover - 12633904 Oil filter - 6437462 Thermostat kit - 89018168 Thermostat seal - 12587397 (Attention: A 1mm NBR seal is also required!) Thermostat housing - ???????? GTO - Shifter Cup - 92147292 GTO - Shifter - 92177175 Clutch actuator / slave cylinder - 24264182 Pilot bearing - 14061685 Clutch master cylinder - 92199594 Melling: High Pressure oil pump – 10295 Improved Racing: Note: It is fully intentioned that I the actually “wrong” oil pan (or oil pan kit) is given here. The oil pan mentioned has a “housing” contained in the casting of the pan, which houses the pressure relief valve for the oil supply for VVT/DOD. This valve and housing is not required and must also be removed as it would collide with the steering rack. Also if the actually "correct" variant of the oil pan, without the housing, is ordered, the identical pan with the housing will be supplied because GM only produces the version with the additional housing for cost reasons. The said valve is only screwed into the pan anyway. On the version for vehicles without the relief valve, a blind plug is simply installed in its place. Since both versions have to be reworked anyway in order to not collide with the steering rack, the additional housing to be removed is hardly significant. Everything needed is an additional standard screw plug. The use of the pan with the pressure relief valve is recommended, since it only costs about half (!!!) of the pan without the valve, which is in fact identical due to the change in production. Front Sump LS1, LS2 GTO / Commodore Oil Cooler Adapter – EGM-107 Baffeled oil pan kit, EGM-403, including: Oil pan GTO LS2 – 12599397 (GM)JustDifferentials: Pinion and crown gear set i = 3.58 - TV6-358-29-NG Bearing and sealing kit for pinion - PKTV6-B (contains bearings and shims for pinion shaft but not for differential cage, bearings for differential cage can be reused if only the ratio is changed, as shims for the differential cage DIN988 in the appropriate size can be used as a cost-effective alternative to Toyota OEM -shims) 29-tooth differential flange - YOKT35100-MULTI AGT-Engineering: Plug&Play GM to BRZ/86 CAN-Bus Translator Continental: Poly V belt - 6PK1880 Note: The poly belt for the ancillaries is meant to be used with the custom-made pulley bracket. (ZN6-020-000-05c) This bracket is also part of the A/C system and carries the A/C line with the high pressure service port for R1234yf. This HD service port is taken over with the OEM A/C line fitting of the GT86. A/C lines: Below are the individual parts of the A/C lines. For better allocation, each with start/end point of the respective line. The components are listed in the order in which they are installed from the specified start to end point. Parts of the lines, which are taken from the original lines or which are self-made, are shown in green letters to illustrate the complete line construction. Cold Hose/custom manufactured: Hose 1 - Expansion valve to A/C compressor:Vacuum connection brake booster: ebay:Fuel lines: Pneumatikshop:Oil lines: AN-Fittings:Cooling water lines: I recommend using Heat Shrink Clamps for all connections between the individual components of the cooling water lines. These do not have a larger diameter than the hose itself at any point, which is a great advantage given the sometimes very tight space conditions. Only at the "ends" of the lines, e.g. at the connections of the water pump and radiator, I recommend to use conventional spring or bolt clamps, in order to be able to loosen and reinstall the hose if necessary without damage. An exception is the connection of the hoses to the heater core. In this case the Heat Shrink Clamps must be used due to space reasons. The connections of the heat exchanger protruding from the fire wall must be shortened by about 2 cm before installation. Cooling water lines to heater core and steamport: Mackay:Air filter: Turbozentrum:Clutch-system: Earls:Spark plug wire: Scott Performance:Miscellaneous: Self-adhesive heat protection mat 100x100cm - HSM-AlFi-sk_V100_1.0x1.0m (for installation in transmission tunnel) |
Wow, Cant wait to see what you end up with. I'm about to start on my 2017 86, but I think I'm leaning more towards a Toyota motor swap. So many decisions!
|
Can't believe it myself, I just installed my 15 buck Camaro master cylinder adapter and it fits great. This was one of the most ambitious and risky designs in that swap kit. I was giving it a max 25% chance to work and was close to order a Tilton MC, but it seems to be almost perfect.
This beeing said, the installation is a little challenging since you have to loosen the clutch and brake pedal assembly as well as remove the gas pedal to get the adapter installed under the pedal assy frame. But after I'm fished its even not to hard if some sticking points are noticed. Will write this down in my documentation later. I removed a part of the master cylinder since I was fearing it would not fit, but now I See that even this wouldnt be necessary. Also the Camaro's sealing to the firewall could have been reused. Only the adapter bolt to the 86 clutch shaft is missing, I will try to get one made shortly. Maybe I will exchange the Master cylinder once everything is tested with clutch and trans installed. But for now I dont See any reason why this shouldn't work exactly as in the Camaro. Also the necessary space in Front of the firewall is a dream. I would tend to say that this is one of the shortest master cylinder options you can have for a 86 LS swap. Here are the pictures: https://abload.de/thumb/dsc_2496exj69.jpg https://abload.de/thumb/dsc_2498g2kec.jpg https://abload.de/thumb/dsc_24946sjnh.jpg https://abload.de/thumb/dsc_2495hdkux.jpg |
And here the first overview pic of the nearly complete kit. Still test Phase, but getting close.
https://abload.de/img/dsc_2637tdkym.jpg |
Looks like a very complete kit with the A.C. line adapters. Excellent job.
|
I'm interested in the ac adapter. Price?
Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk |
Quote:
I dont think that'll clear for sikky users. Also, curious, what distance do you have between the cylinder head and firewall? trying to gauge how far forward/aft your setup is vs CX/Vorshlag/Sikky. Looks like a VERY well done setup. Congrats. Quote:
|
Thanks folks for that great Feedback!
@vijay.dy06: There is no pricing, as I said Im not a Company. Furthermore Im locate in Germany. WE dont have a big enough market for such stuff to make a business. There are very few people here willing to do such swaps, and those few we have tend to dont Do things on their own but to go to a tuner and let him Do the complete Job. So, current Plan is sharing the data once everything is finished. But its still test phase. There needs to be one more Adapter (For compressor terminal) which is not modelled jet since I had Material to weld this one instead of milling it. Bur I plan to have the kit complete and so I will create also a plug and play version of this one. It will also included a switch port where the GM A/C sensor can be adapted, which is needed for a/c to work if you are using the E38 ECU. ETA for finished a/c line kit including parts list, line length and clocking is 1-2month from today. This being said, as I was standing infront of the kit it came to my mind to maybe Team up with a manufacturer in the US since I believe its not everyones business to CNC' such parts. But just thinking currently... @spitsnaugle: When take out the engine next time I will do some measurements. If I had to guess I would say its between 30 and 40mm out the Firewall, but didnt measure jet. Overall Position is not fixed jet, since Im waiting for my New trans for weeks. I decided to use a new magnum F instead of standard T56, but those are backordered currently and leadtime extends. I hope that I now found a way to get it quicker from Grannas racing. I need the trans installed to get the exact Overall Position, since the set angle makes a huge difference in clearance to Firewall and latch support. So compared to sikky it will definately be more forward, I would guess arround 35mm, since sikky testfitted LS' with vortec/Truck spacing pulley which creates a virtualy 38mm longer engine compared to the Standard/corvette spacing my Setup is made for. But they pay the toll to hammer in the Tunnel for some inches to get this far back Position working and a Main goal of my kit was to avoid this type of modifications on the chassis. Compared to vorshlag it should be slightly more back, since they needed to Trim the latch Support even while using corvette spacing. This makes sence in a way since they use a Magnum XL, which is much longer in matters of shifter Position compared to T56 f body or magnum f. If I done correctly my perfect shifter Position is arround 31inch from the engine flange. This means 2 inch back from f body receptacle or 2 inch forward if using T56 with GTO shifter, meaning there will be some kind of an shifter relocation made for this kit once I have the trans in hands. The Design of the engine mounts is currently done for a Max forward position without need to cut the latch support while using corvette spacing. But I planed for the sheetmetal base joint to be the variable Part on that. So by changing the bore in this Part it is possible to adapt the kit for arround 1inch more backward Position. The Design of the trans mount is pretty variable anyway. This means, once I have the angle defined I can move arround a little to find the sweet spot. I will go ahead and maybe Post some more pics of the first install of the kit's components later. EDIT: The expansion valve a/c adapter: https://abload.de/thumb/dsc_265022jg7.jpg Pre-installed engine mount, without bushing yet since coating has to be done before bushing is pressfitted: https://abload.de/thumb/dsc_26416gkzn.jpg Condenser to expansion valve line Adapter, was made due to space restrictions, Standard Adapter to O-Ring fitting wouldnt work due to low space to crash bar: https://abload.de/thumb/dsc_26515rkjg.jpg Welded compressor port Adapter with a/c switch Port, will be done as milled screw-on Version later, but same layout: https://abload.de/thumb/dsc_2580e2k0q.jpg All other a/c line stuff can be purchased at coldhose.com as long as you are using R134a. Since I have to use R1234yf due to local laws I have to use additional Service port Adapters for this refrigerant. (The high Port is reused from the OEM 86 line.) The small (#6) line between condenser and expansion valve is the OEM 86 line, which is re-bent in the section above the Firewall. This process can be done with simple Tools, but needs some mechanical skills. Therefore the Design of the expansion valve Adapter is made in a way that you also have the Option to use an aftermarket #6 hose with standard O-Ring fittings and build a New line. In that case the OEM 86 a/c pressure sensor needs to be removed and the Contact at the plug to be bridged. With the OEM line its added safety to mesure the pressure twice, before and after condenser, while pre condenser is the GM Sensor (which OEM also was locted pre condenser) and post condenser is 86 OEM. Both Sensors are serial wired, so the refrigerant pressure is Controller to be within GM as well as in Toyota spec. (both Sensors have a defined low/high windows in which they activate the compressor, serial wiring means that both are needed to allow the compressor to Start) Since R1234yf is a more critical refrigerant I decided to go this way. If you use R134a the OEM sensor can be removed. Also with R1234yf it is not 100% necessary, but I wouldnt recommend to take out that added safety. |
Reinstalled everything I have so far during weekend to Also check fitment of the last A/C adapter between condenser and expansion valve. Looks good so far, in matters of line routing even better than expected. Now only oil lines are missing...
https://abload.de/thumb/dsc_265849k39.jpghttps://abload.de/thumb/dsc_2664ixjop.jpg https://abload.de/thumb/dsc_2668jck02.jpg Latest overview of the complete install. Airbox and Filter positioning still things to do, but this needs to wait Until engine and trans are finaly in place. Furthermore the last A/C line on passender side needs to be crimped. Also some brackets for that still missing. https://abload.de/thumb/dsc_2671w1jgv.jpg I now ordered the Magnum F at grannas racing. Could arrive Until end of the week. Fortunately Joel has a couple of those transmissions in stock what allows to work arround the backorder on manufacturers side. |
Still working, but mechanical the kit is almost ready. Air filter/intake as well as part of the exhaust (catalytic converters) and driveshaft are not ready yet. Air filter and driveshaft in progress, exhaust will take a while to be finished.
https://abload.de/img/dsc_2847nwkxl.jpg https://abload.de/img/dsc_2843nxj6v.jpg Up to here 100% DIY, own development, own kit. Will try to keep it like that. Let's see if I can make it through the TÜV as a privat individual anywhen in the future. |
Want to come back with some answers @spitsnaugle:
I took some measurements on the Master. It sticks out a little less than 75mm including all lines. The heads have a distance to the Firewall of 88mm on the driver side, measured at the top of the rear face of the head. Due to the light angel of the complete Aggregat (the diff pinion sits not in the exact middle, it is arround 30mm to the right side of the car if I remember my numbers correctly) there is a little more distance on the passenger side. As well due to the tilt of the complete Aggregat the smallest gap is on the top side. So the distance is slightly bigger the lower you go. In a short, the 88mm is the closest spot to the Firewall. The balancer clears the latch support by about 15-20mm. No trimming required. (Note: Corvette spacing used on the LS.) The only thing I didnt achieve is to avoid any deforming on the Tunnel besides the removal of the OEM trans mount. There is a Portion on the driver side where the Tunnel is asymetric. Its pretty much the same Spot @spitsnaugle discribed in his build. One sheet metal part needs to be flatened there by hammering. This part his reaching into the "normal" profile of the Tunnel and needs to be deformed so that it is flat with the actual tunnel. I would say it needed arround 10-15mm of deflection. As well I made a little more space for the reverse switch (arround 5mm), but this is only due to the fact that I wraped the complete tunnel with 3mm hear shield. Without that (and in this Position its actualy not realy needed) this can be left out. As well I removed some unnecessary parts of the transmission housing arround the reverse switch and grinded down the housing arround one thread end by 5mm on the driver side. (also not needed Material) With those measures the smallest gaps arround the trans is 5mm. Taking the heat shied into consideration its 8mm. |
After some final wiring fixes there are some news about the swap project. The CAN Bus translator is working fine. All systems are running. (AC not tested yet since not filled) Driveshaft and a section of the exhaust still missing, so no drving or longer test runs yet, but very promissing for now...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AW6gVAI-yf8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ukJ-A16C47Q |
Finally I had the chance to do a short walkthrough of my project and upload it to youtube. Here you go:
https://youtu.be/Xdlml9k7404 |
Very Nice,
Did it pass TUV? |
Quote:
Not yet, I need to slow the progress down a little since my budget for that project is limitted and I had some unplaned efforts due to the Magnum F. (When I calculated the budget it was planed to use the Camaro transmission. But it didn't fit due to the shifter receptacle on top of the housing pretty far forward and no space in the tunnel to get in a remote shifter without cutting major sections of the tunnel.) Long story short, I will order the converters next week. Then I will prepared the exhaust section from downpipe to catback. As soon as this is welded I will make an integral heatshielding for the catalyser at least from DP to Y pipe. Once this is done and I have a better feeling with this shielding technique I will decide if also the headers will get an integral shielding, since I realy dont like the optic of the traditionell heat wrap tape. The heatshielding needs to be on side of the manifold itself since the converters need the heat to work properly. Without that it will not be possible to pass E5 emission test. It is also possible that I need additional post converters, but for the moment I will try to go with one converter per bank. Then I still need to upgrade the breakes, what is a very easy thing to do, but also pretty much the most expensive part of the project. All this needs to be finished before I can bring the car to the inspection. |
From the video, it looks very OEM which is awesome.
I hope all goes well with the transmission and exhaust. With regards to brakes are you thinking CTSV ? |
Fortunately at least the tranny is a solved point so far.
Regarding brakes Stoptech, K Sport or D2 are the feasable options since they are known that a TÜV approval is possible. A CTS V is not realy an option since they are not available arround here and also it should be a pain to get those through the approval. Currently I'm tending towards D2 since they are available as dual fuel for the rear, what means a hydro E brake as flyoff could be possible while maintaining TÜV conformity as long as the OEM E brake is kept alive. But I need to dig a little deeper into regulations to See if this is realy possible. Future plan is to hide the hydro master under the center console and have a click-on handle whith a receptacle under a small cover next to the shifter. But at least the hydro E brake part will be something for the next season. |
Quote:
I'm currently doing mine and everything is pretty much done except I'm waiting on a 5/8 bore cylinder. The one installed in my pictures and videos is a 3/4 bore which is too big for the handbrale and takes a ton of effort to move. It was an extra part that I had and hoping that it would work but ultimately the 3/4 bore will wear the handbrake components out far too quickly. Hopefully the 5/8 master cylinder will be a better feel. I will let you know if you're interested in how it feels. Gktech is the company that produces the bracket and hardware. Youtube their video. This piece was designed for a 240sx but also is universal.https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...d94ee90672.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...d70ecc5e9d.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...f3363c0ad5.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...d75b11f1e8.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...be8583f6b3.jpg Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk |
Quote:
Concerning the master I was going to place next to the OEM brake handle, using the little rectangle where currently my switches for the heated seats are placed. Since those switch are kind of ugly anyway I was going to relocate them into the compartment under the armrest, what should be easy. Then cut out that rectangle and 3d print a removable cover to acces the reservoir of the master, so I also was trying to go with no remote reservoir as you did. Pretty much only more forward. How is the handle for your hydro placed and fixed? I was going to make a milled aluminium braket which will be fixed with four screws holding the oem shifter boot. On top of that I was planing a mechanism to bring the movement of the handle pretty much arround the shifter to the center of the master sitting right next to the oem handle. Then a click in mechanism or bayonet to attach the hydro handle to the mechanism moving the master. The port for that shall be left or right of the shifter also with a small 3d printed cover. So I can remove the hydro handle quickly for daily driving and have in the trunk. When going to a drift day or whatever, just take it out and click it in. Also the braket for the handle was planed to be included to that aluminum braket or maybe as a sheet metal part screwed to it, depending how the design turns out once I start with that. |
In the picture it looks as though he is using the cable from the oem e-brake to actuate a lever on the hydraulic master cyl. under the center console. So just the oem e-brake was reused for the hydraulic system, and the mechanical e-brake actuation was eliminated.
|
Quote:
|
Materials list in post #1 updated, should be nearly complete now, though still not finished
|
DIY integral insulation: CHECK
Since I feel that this technique is not very popular, a little explanation: This is a heatshielding technique, where the shielded part gets covered with self adhessive ceramic viber mates. After that smaler gaps (mostly found an headers, where tubes are running to the collector and so one) are filled with more ceramic viber material. Than everything gets plated with a 0.1mm thick stainless steel foil which is resistance welded to the base material and between each other. The addhesive of the ceramic mate burns of when the system is heated up for the first time. The stainless steel foil than holds everything in place. This technique is more common on OEM exhaust systems, since custom manufacturing is very work intensiv. There also preformed shapes are used and often not welded but folded between each other. For custom aplications it is usualy welded. There are some derivate techniques where the material is hold in place with steel cable ties or similar. This is a much easier methode, but in most cases its not as effective or complete and as well not as estehetic. Integral insulation is outperforming traditinal heat wraping in heat reduction by far. As well it doesnt Show the effect like Many heat wraps, that it falls apart when toching it after it once was hot. The only downsides are the slightly higher weight but mainly the much higher effort (or cost). In my case it was about 12h for ceramic mates on both and steel plating on one header. So I expect 18h for the two of them. Later also the downpipes and converters will be covered. But for those components the process is much easier. Reasons why I diced to go that route: -very good heatshielding needed to get the converters to work early after cold start, required to pass the full scale emmision test for street approval -heat shielding for the engine compartment, on one hand to protect all components in there aginst high temperatures, on the other of course for performance reasons -more effective than heat wraping -more OEM and cleaner look -no issues or need to re-do the process in case headers has to be removed what I expect to be necessary in order to exchange spark plug on right hand side due to the shape of the CX headers https://abload.de/img/dsc_2940i3jnt.jpg https://abload.de/thumb/dsc_2934x3jih.jpg https://abload.de/thumb/dsc_2936yjkle.jpg https://abload.de/thumb/dsc_2935tkknd.jpg https://abload.de/thumb/dsc_29411zk41.jpg https://abload.de/thumb/dsc_2932fnje4.jpg https://abload.de/thumb/dsc_2931q0kec.jpg https://abload.de/thumb/dsc_2938j7kwl.jpg Left hand side only yet, to be continued... |
That is pretty awesome.
But that is really tight between the shield and the heat shield you have on the frame rail. You must have really stiff motor mounts if you don't get contact the between those components. |
Quote:
This beeing said, the engine and trans mounts are way stiffer than the FA20 mounts as found at pretty much any LS swap. |
Car is pretty much finished meanwhile. Exhaust is ready. Very acceptable loudness range. Driving smoothly through the city car is almost not noticable. Full throttle makes a good sound with a (for Germany) acceptable loudness. (at least in my book) No major issues on the first testdrives. Two little space issues with the Front axle stabilizer and the driveshaft arround the fuel tank heat shield. Also I needed to rework a connector of the fuel line. Besides that some minor Software issues. Needed to find a limiter setting which Was hindering the car to go over 100mph. Changed that. Now working to get a full emission test driving cycle together. Also the a/c fluid is still missing.
Some hard facts: 100-200kph (~60-120mph) = 8,43s Very poor shift from 3rd to 4th. Log says more than 1s. As well the clutch learning (the LS ECU is learning the bite point somehow to hinder the driver from unwanted clutch kicks, at least it seems like that as far as I feel, still digging into the LS software topic...) So, long Story Short, below 8s should be very possible. Weight before swap 1287kg, thereof 698kg on front axle (3/4 fuel, without driver) Weight after swap 1349kg, thereof 777kg on front axle (1/1 fuel, without driver) A view kg more will be added since the big brake kit is still missing. No serious handling testing yet, but from what I was able to feel for now the car seems not to have noticable increased understeering or oversteering when rolling through a corner. Well, I changed the suspension setting a little already. The aggressiv torque of the LS is just amazing. Cant get enough of that. Crusing with 50kph in 6th gear, no problem. Even uphills and even accelerating. Unbelivable. No Real drifting yet, just a little 1st gear power sliding, but feels simply great so far. TCS is handeled by the GM ECU now. Performs by far better than the OEM TCS. Traction feels great. The wide ratio axle with the wide ratio trans is great. VSC, VSC Sport and Full Off Mode working as before. Seems that also the basic behavior didnt change compared to what it was before as far as I can judge it now. Cruise control and push Button Start also working. Just one more huge compliment to Andrew from AGT Engineering. A great product with unbeliveable ease of Installation. I would say with my parts list and a good set of mounts and brakets and all that stuff a normal skilled mechanic could do this swap. Love the build so far. For real, go and LS swap your 86'. Its great. Edit: Added some of the latest pics... https://abload.de/img/dsc_2937d4j46.jpg https://abload.de/thumb/dsc_2954chkvu.jpg https://abload.de/thumb/dsc_2955kxkbc.jpg https://abload.de/thumb/dsc_295125j6i.jpg |
Yeeeaahh!!!!! Awsome build my man!!!! You deserve it!!!!
|
Congratulations on your success! Looking forward to a complete BOM and CAD package.
|
Fun Fact comming to my mind just this moment:
Just in case I decide to build a home once more and just in case I also decide to get 5 bags of concrete from home depot with the GT, 40kg each, and I carry them in the trunk I would archive same total weight and same bias as a Corvette C7 GrandSport. Just hypothtical I mean... :laughabove::burnrubber: |
That sounds good and bad when you say it like that.
|
I dont see that much bad news there. Sure, 50/50 is optimal they say. But I think every race engineer would love to accept a free 15% weight reduction, even if its concentrated on one end of the vehicle. :)
Adopted there are two identical vehicles and the weight of one of them gets reduced on the rear end by 15%, it is clear that the other is the one with the better balanced handling. But would you even say that the one without reduction is also the faster one on the track? Sure, depends on the track layout (or the type of competition), but in most cases I would say the lighter one should make the race. To be clear with that, I dont want to make a statement that a swaped 86 is faster/better/whatever compared to C7 GS. There are many many more differences between those two Cars than only weight and bias. I wouldnt go out on a limb and make such a statememt. This beeing said, I realy like the handling, also with the swap. At least that far I was able to test it yet. The slalom videos of @spitsnaugle also dont make the impression of a car out of balance. Sure, 50/50 is the dream mark and would result in lower lap times. But I realy have the impression that this imperfection is within totaly acceptable limits. On the other hand it is also possible to do a FI build on the FA20. I did Turbo builds before, for myself a 1.8T 20V in pretty much the same as a Golf Mk4. It was over 400HP and I realy liked the techniques and the Turbo torque and so one. But there were always things running on the edge. Finally it was the gearbox which was the weak point in that build. Everything else was optmized somewhen to hould up daily use and also rough driving. But the trans I had to overhaul or exchange every 8-10k miles. I didnt see any sence in expensive transmission swaps also available for those cars. I just dont want to spend more money for a trans then the whole rest of the car is worth. It came the day I decided to sell this car and save some money to build our house... Hmm, 2 month later I purchased the 86, promissing to do no modifications on that car to be able to sell it quickly, just in case I need to. Now, find my mistake... ;) Long story Short, for my perpektive the LS swap was a great decission as far as I can say now. Sure, getting this thing street legal is still an open point. But the engine, the trans, axles and driveshaft can handle the power. They are not running out of spec. Under normal circumstances they will hold up daily use and also spirited driving for a long time. The weight penalty I have to accept therefore is absolutely fine for me. Pricewise a FI build with compareable durability and power is not cheaper and will not consume much less fuel. And the best thing: Turbo torque is nice. LS V8 Torque is just outstanding. I would say no 2L Turbo with 450HP will spool imidiatly the milisecond you hit the pedal at 1000rpm. And for now I just love it. Might be a consequence that Im already used to drive turbos with good torque + power and beeing kind of bored over the years. |
Weight distribution is important, but so is where the weight is distributed like is it central or polar, and of course where the weight is compared to the drive wheels, besides total weight and a million other factors.
Take the C8 Corvette. The weight distribution is 40/60, which is far from 50/50, but that extra weight over the rear wheels really makes a difference 0-60 and around a track. I would assume any disadvantages the C7 had over the C8 because of weight distribution would only be that much worse with more weight further forward, if that makes sense. Total weight is definitely important too, and maybe it is more important than how easy it is to put the power to the wheels, but maybe not too. I don't know. |
Some numbers:
0-100kmh = 4.1s (dry, normal Road, Federal RS-R 595) I think with a little more Training and warm tire and road a 3.x should be possible. Traction seems very good. Once the clutch in closed full throttle in gear 1 is possible with no wheelspin. 11.75L per 100km with normal driving style, 1/3 Autobahn @ 130kmh, 1/3 over land, 1/3 city About 18L per 100km @ spirited driving 9.5L per 100km "hypermiling" @ 100kmh cruise control |
:clap: Unbelievable work, thank you for this gift to the community! Couple questions (they may be obvious but I'm still trying to familiarize myself with the details of these swaps). Does the stock emissions equipment for the LS/LT engines not fit in our cars? If I were ever to try something this crazy down the road I'd want to be road legal too, which is complicated in California. Also I've read that some people are not able to keep the front sway bar when installing these engines due to clearance issues, were you able to work around that?
|
With the mounts I developed and the GTO pan it's absolutely possible to keep the sway bar. Its all a matter of engine placement.
For california you are absolutely able to stay street legal. (from what I know about the regulations there) Only thing you have to do in addition to my swap is to implement the GM pressure sensor to the fuel tank and exchange the Toyota vacuum EVAP test pump for the GM solenoid valve. What Toyota is doing with a vacuum pump and a valve is done by GM with a valve only and the heat expansion of the fuel due to exhaust heat. Qiestionable is if the calculations done by the ECU for that test are suitable for the 86 fuel tank volume. But besides that the System should work if you add those two components. Concerning the converters: No, the OEM converters will not fit an 86 chassis. But there are several good options out there. Just keep in mind that you have to Plan for about 600 bucks per converter to have a reliable unit and you need two of them. After correctly setting up my exhaust System I was able to perform all internal emission DTC Tests for the GM ECU. That should be all for CA as far as I know. In Germany this is by far not enough. Only advantage is that the EVAP Regulations are less critical here, so I dont need that vacuum test stuff. This beeing said, the EU Version of the 86 doesnt even have this vacuum test System. Just a conventinal chaar coal filter. Thats all. |
Unfortunately in California you must use unmodified OEM cat's that came on the engine from the car that you sourced the swap from. You could get a kit C.A.R.B certified but thats a different route and will cost $10,000-$20,000
California dosen't care about how clean the emissions are. They focus on stopping swaps by making it way harder than it needs to be to meet regulations that are unnecessary to meet emission standards, or price you out of it altogether. |
Quote:
|
Quote:
Not sure I'm using a LT4 engine with C7 corvette manifolds and cats. I think camaro manifolds would be easier. |
Quote:
|
| All times are GMT -4. The time now is 08:27 AM. |
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2026, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
User Alert System provided by
Advanced User Tagging v3.3.0 (Lite) -
vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2026 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.