BMW B58
 

With the release of the Supra I figured I'd look into how much a B58 engine runs to, and it's not as much as I'd expected (UK). I know it's not a large or heavy lump so may make a good swap candidate. Very little info on what ECUs will run one, although I expect a Motec would, and then would need a strong gearbox. I'm assuming there might be a suitable box from a M140/240 that would fit without a crazy amount of work.

Tried looking on here but doesn't seem to have been mentioned this far, which is surprising.

Thoughts?

First thought is why? I’m just trying to figure out what benefit there would be over a 2J, LS or UZ engine? If it’s just to be the first person to do it then sure I guess it would be cool.

I created a thread on the S65. Similar idea.

The only advantages I see over a 2JZ are the following: the engine and transmission are one unit so there isn’t a need for an adapter kit for something like a CD009; the engine might be lighter and is for sure lower and shorter; there is no need to upgrade to a single turbo like it is for the 2jz; and the intake manifold could work without a need for modification or a drive by wire conversion. Those costs could add up. I don’t know what a used engine and tranny go for but I doubt it is too expensive compared to a LS and T56.

The big thing is Pure Automotive isn’t likely going to do a Motec setup for canbus integration or anyone else, so this would only be for a racecar situation because I doubt it would be a good daily without full integration.

2JZ are not cheap here in the UK, certainly not as cheap as the B58, which comes as a surprise. The fact the B58 makes good power and is modern so should be quite a decent engine to run. Certainly is decent fun in the M240 so a lighter more able chassis seems an obvious choice. I quite like the i6 idea and bar the 2JZ and also expensive RB25/26 the options are limited.

UZ is one that I've been tempted by but we don't get many V8 Toyotas/Lexus here so again, not that cheap and need work to make similar power. LS just isn't an option here, we don't get any of the models that use them so you either have to get one imported or from an imported car, so guess what, they aren't cheap.

I dig it, the fact is the 2JZ is coming up on 30 years old and keeping that lump alive and running is a cottage industry that won't last forever. If I6s are your thing a B58 is a long term contender as long as you don't need crazy power right now, it'll be interesting to see how much abuse the B58 block can take as Papadakis gives it a shot.

As above, it's a racecar swap right now not a street car one without a lot of effort and or money.

The reality is there is little money to save over this swap and just buying a Supra, nor is there any benefit I can see unless someone just needs a 2+2. In the end, the Supra is the better car in every way.

With that kind of logic why ever bother going into this section?

I think it could be a real fun swap. Most of it will be custom, so that is where the cost is going to be. I also am not sure how well any of the bmw auto transmission will fit, they seem to be quite large and will require more work to fit in the trans tunnel. Mount a manual may be an option, but more work again.

I am quite interested in the B58 as a lightweight all aluminum "2jz replacement".

No reason it has to be a racecar only option. Motec can control the factory canbus, just requires you to make your own harness and such. Pure's option is good because most of the hard work is done for you already, but no reason you have to stick to only their packages to do swaps.

With a b58 being about 80lbs lighter than the stock engine, you’d be looking at a supra powered 86 that weighs ~600lbs less than a supra. Probably
More like 500lbs due to custom fab stuff, but still.

Because swaps are often about bettering one’s position. Some could buy a Supra or LS300/IS300/GS300 if they want a 2JZ easier, but then they have an old car or an overpriced Supra If someone wants an LS then they have to buy a boat of a Camaro or drop some coin on a Corvette. As a racecar, this swap makes sense, but not as a full canbus daily; by the end of the swap, someone would likely drop Supra money into a car with less quality, less stiffness with weaker and cheaper components, etc. That just seems silly, but if someone wants to burn cash on a project then more power to them.

It requires a custom harness, custom Motec ECU and custom tune. That could run $10k right there. For a turn key car with OEM driveability will easily cross $20k. Add a new car to that and you have the price of a new Supra. The weight difference between the 86 and Supra will approximate with the swap and the small difference in weight will be due to a huge diffErence in quality and expendables.

80lbs lighter for an engine with two extra cylinders and a turbo system? Is the transmission lighter? Is the cooling system not getting upgraded? Is the active diff going into the swap? What about the larger brakes? What about the adaptive suspension? What about the thicker components? What about the stiffer chassis? What about the quality? Is this going to be a track/racecar or just a daily? Rims and tires getting upgraded too?

I think you are hoping to get something for free.

Didn't you bring up the S65 V8 swap not too long ago?

I could see it easily being over $20k to get the swap going. I have almost $20k in just my engine and transmission alone on my LS swap and money keeps adding up because I have to rebuild the engine again.

If the swap isn't for you, no need to continue putting others down for going for it, or talking it through. You sound exactly like the people that tell me I was stupid for swapping my car and not buying a corvette.

With the B58 being about $1500 more than a 2JZ and fully aluminum making close to 700whp with bolt on upgrades, I don't see why it isn't a good swap. Canbus is just a part of these swaps, pay to play unfortunately. There are a few cheaper options popping up now that offer canbus support that could provide a cheaper swap option as well.

The other 6 cyl option I was looking at is the new v6 ecotech/LV3. LT based v6 making 285hp and 305tq N/A. More if you run it on e85. Lightweight All Aluminum V6 that works with a lot of the current LS/LT V8 stuff. Would be a killer swap

Yep I did like I mentioned above.

I wasn’t putting anyone down. I was talking it through. Isn’t that what people do when they talk it through—weigh the pros and cons? I mentioned some pros, but I consider the cons would outweigh the pros. It is information to consider. That’s all.

The turbo bolts directly to the head due to the headifold design, so that should add minimal weight, maybe 20lbs. Adaptive suspension isn’t necessary or part of an engine swap so I don’t see why that matters (although a Tein kit is like 5lbs). BBKs are lighter than stock, and aluminum chassis stiffening is a matter of tens of pounds, not hundreds. Even being conservative you’re looking at 400-500lbs lighter of car, assuming you don’t strip weight elsewhere (battery, seats, etc).

You’re not getting something for free, you’re building a purpose built racecar or “racecar” or hotrod or drift missile or whatever you want to call it, instead of a pseudo-luxury sportscoupe. The “cost” is in that you’ll have a loud, rarely, harsh racecar instead of a car you can drive to work every day.

Because I like my eyes. I have also paid off the 86 a long time ago and don't want to drop £50k on a car that I hate the look of..... I'd rather buy an A110 but I'm told by SWMBO that I need more than 2 seats [sigh].
M140/240 comes in manual here. Probably not as good as the OEM in terms of feel but it's OK and obviously designed for the torque. Probably similar in length on those platforms too. Would need a little research.

Decent V6 options also limited here, the only viable one I can think of would be a VQ35/37 but I'm not sure that would be much cheaper.

On some B58s it has a manifold. The engine has an intake manifold with an integrated water to air intercooler and an intercooler up front. It has a turbo system with more actuators and sensors than the FA20. It has a larger radiator. The transmission is larger. It has two extra cylinders. I can’t imagine saving 80lbs of weight with this swap.

The point about the adaptive suspension, active diff, stiffer chassis, etc is that the Supra has better components which is why it is heavier and is why it has more value. Again, by the time someone completes the swap, they may end up wishing their Supra clone was just an actual Supra, especially after spending Supra money and having less quality parts.

Like I said below, I agree with you that a racecar is the most logical application for this setup. Also, it could be cheaper trying to make the 86 more powerful with this swap than trying to make the Supra lighter. It would be hard to remove sound deadening; it would be hard to remove and sell the adaptive suspension system in order to install static compression; it would be hard to remove thickness from the subframe or suspension components to match that of the 86; it would be harder to remove quality from the interior without a full strip; it would take more effort to swap to a smaller brake setup to match the 86. I agree that this swap is most logical/cost-reasonable as a racecar likely using a used, higher mileage 86 along with a basic ECU package just to get the car running.

Yea, if you are disgusted with the looks of the Supra and enamored that much with the 86 then the swap makes sense. Selling your car and putting that money plus the $20-25k in swap cash towards a different used car could get something better or worse, depending on your tastes. Subjectivity does play a hand in these decisions.

On the manual transmission, like I said earlier, that is one of the best advantages here. The engine and transmission could be bought as one assembly. With the 2JZ, the CD009 and adapter kit is another large expense. With the Pure Auto K24 swap, there is a need to source a S2000 tranny and an adapter kit. Usually an engine and transmission joined together are cheaper and less headache.

Sorry, didn't realize you from the UK until after my post.The swap starts to make more sense on that side of the pond. I say go for it!

600whp with bolt-ons and a tune on race gas.

Shit, 400whp with a tune and exhaust on pump fuel is plenty for this car and cake for a B58 to make.
And if you can cross your i's and dot your t's you can even keep it street legal in California.

After a quick search I can't find much info on ECUs but I don't think that the M150 can run the DIs that the B58 uses. I suspect that the N55 uses similar injectors and seems that the M142 is used, but then I'm not sure you can get the factory accessory compatibility that you get with the M150.

Rumor has it CSG is already working on something CA legal!

With what trans?

ZF Auto 8speed (that the Supra comes with)

:popcorn:

Why no xDrive while you're at it? Go all out. :burnrubber:

bump

https://youtu.be/WzgzSnYDvz4

I was almost like :eyebulge: when I saw sparks.

An LS swap with full can integration will cost more than just buying a C5 Z06...




The FA20 also has twice as many heads and cams. These boxers are VERY heavy for all aluminum 4 cylinders.


According to published weights I can find, the FA20 engine and transmission is 480lbs. The B58 is 306lbs and the ZF 8HP is 192lbs (498lbs combined). Not lighter than the FA20 driveline, but also a completely negligible weight gain for the performance difference.

1. Exactly.

2. Yes, it is heavy. Part of that is because cutting an engine in half requires the edition of some extra material and parts. There are two heads, but there isn't twice or a doubling of the heads in terms of weight. There is a trade off in creating a low and compact engine, but good to know I was correct, that there isn't an 80lb savings. I'm sure there would also be a small to significant handling penalty by placing an equivalent of three to four cylinders further forward and raising the COG of the engine. Depending on the racecar application, this could be detrimental to handling.

That 192 pound weight is for the automatic; if a manual were used as is available in different BMW platforms, I'm guessing that would be a lot closer to the claimed 80 pound savings. Certainly lighter overall than the current FA20/trans package.

It could be, but BMW lists the difference between the M240i ZF8HP50 auto vs manual as 35lbs, with the manual being heavier.

https://www.bmwusa.com/vehicles/2-se...fications.html

Heavier than an 8 speed automatic..?? I have to wonder if that's a typo... Not like it hasn't happened before...

Not that it affects me...this certainly isn't a swap I'd ever consider.

Well, the reason the Supra came with a ZF8 verses a DCT is weight they said, so maybe the ZF8 is light for what it offers, and it is good to remember that our Asain manual transmission is glass compared to the manual in a M240i. The torque is about 2.5 times the levels of the twins, so the transmission would be much beefier, as well as, the clutch assembly. Add the weight of a clutch slave cylinder and extra foot pedal assembly, and I could imagine the manual being heavier than the ZF8.

So you folks are looking at a potential swap capability of B58 engine into this chassis? Thats actually great news if it is so.

I have no doubt that either manual for the B58 is heavier than our Aisin. Likewise, I'd expect a DCT and clutch setup is also going to be much heavier than a traditional manual with foot clutch (assuming they're for the same motor) simply due to the additional componentry required, so I guess I could buy the ZF being lighter than the DCT. I still have a very hard time believing a conventional manual transmission for the B58 in an F20/22/30 weighs 225+ lbs (192 for 8HP, plus 35 difference). A T56 barely weighs half that and certainly has more capacity than either GS6xxx manuals (Getrag or ZF) in the BMW...

Agreed. The manual is normally lighter, and I was just as surprised, so it could be a typo, but then I read this:

https://www.bmwblog.com/2017/04/21/b...ons-soon-gone/

Weird. Score another one for American driveline engineering, I guess.

T56's aren't known for shifting nicely...

T56 *Magnum*, on the other hand, totally different story...

T56 and T56 Magnum are different products from different product lines that use the same name for marketing. Borg Warner designed the original T56 and sold the T line to Tremec. Tremec has engineering offices in Michigan, so American designed, but they are built in Mexico and are a subsidiary of a Mexican corporate group.