Battling dealership/Toyota for warranty replacement.
 

I have a '15 FRS with 42,000 miles. Bought it used at 28,000 oil change at 34,500. I heard a slight ticking sound on my way to work, a coworker who is more knowledgeable looked at it with me, oil level was good, no gunk, a little dark as expected but I was wanting to get it in for an oil change anyway. He said it sounded like a timing issue and to take it slow. Drove home the next morning after work and called the dealership for service. On my way to the dealership the knocking grew louder and about 3 blocks away a horrible grinding noise started and immediately the oil light came on followed by the engine light, then the entire hud lit up like a Christmas tree and the car died. From the time the metal grinding sound started to the time the lights went crazy to the car dying was about 3-5 seconds. Now the dealership is saying the main bearing is destroyed and it was oil starvation, the head mechanic looked me in the face and said that, then proceeded to tell me that the oil levels were fine. "It suffered oil starvation at some point." Was the answer I got. "Metal shavings in the oil." Really? I could have told you that from the sound it made 3 blocks ago.

I talked with a service rep who told me to wait it out and someone from Toyota would be in to look at it. Got the news today that they looked at, said there was metal in the oil and it was due to oil starvation. You dont say.

I feel like I'm talking to a brick wall and have no idea what to do. And right now I'm looking at over $8,000 for a used engine swap with 47,000 miles if I want to get my car on the road again. Any advice would be appreciated.

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Slow and steady wins the race. Don't jump the gun on anything yet , be cool /calm and collective. You don't have a functioning car, but you have time to get things on the straight and narrow. Ask questions, lots of questions…. you must become a detective so to speak.

That's what I'm trying to do, but it seems like every question I ask they just stone wall me and say it was "oil starvation". Its become the end all be all to any conversation I try to start with anyone. I've seen online most recommended oil changes for the FA20 is 5,000 miles, and a few places say 5-10,000. I know the oil needed changed, but it wasnt low, not by any means. But even if 5000 miles is recommended, I cant imagine instant catastrophic engine failure for going 2,000 miles over that. From the time the ticking started on my way to work to the time the car died goin to the dealership was maybe 15 miles. That's just absolutely insane to me.

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Look, if the oil was between the lines, even if it was a little dark, oil was in the engine. If it had oil starvation, then something inside the engine (i.e., oil pump, etc.) stopped doing it's job. If so, then if it was still under warranty, Toyota should fix it. If not under warranty, it gets more complicated. Good luck, I have a '13 with similar mileage, so I'll be paying much more attention.

Oil starvation issues on post 13 models are very, very rarely reported on here. I think I remember reading about maybe 3 others in total.
It may be a bit of a fight especially since it is a used car. Who knows what the previous owner put it through. The dealer should pull the engine apart and look for passages blocked by sealant but they may want to charge for that. They should also check the oil pump as there is at least one recorded case of it failing. My bet is you will find that the #4 crank bearing has spun. If they won't cooperate then it may pay to take it to another shop and have them check. Of course if they find nothing then there would be no case but if they do it may be the proof that would sway a warranty claim. Overall expect a fight though.

This has been almost a 2 month battle. The dealer offered to tear down the engine to "find a reason to cover it under warranty" but said it would cost $2400. Knowing that the oil levels were fine and that I wasnt driving the car like a maniac I knew it wasn't anything I had done to the car so I told them to go ahead, since I really had no other option. That's when they hit me a second time with the whole "oil starvation"/"metal in the oil" thing.

Metal in the oil is a symptom not a cause. If they did indeed tear down the engine then they should be able to tell where the metal came from.

This reminds me of the 2007 VW GTI I financed back in 2011 with CarMax. I got it used with 41,400 miles and after the 60,000 mile mark it was a new problem every month. CEL always there, misfires, front CV joints were bad then replaced, pcv was replaced, humming brakes replaced, a/c compressor went out and replaced. All this was covered under warranty but I had to pay a $100 deductible for every repair.
Is there a way you can just trade in the car for another one?
I would use those $2,400 for a down payment on another car. Maybe a 2019 Toyota Corolla... :D

If you're located within one of the two privately owned Toyota distributorships (GST, SET), you won't have much recourse, they tend to wag the dog (arbitration hearings).

Otherwise, if your car has a clean title, is still under the drivetrain warranty and you have the complete service history including repair orders showing compliance with the recommended scheduled maintenance intervals using OEM parts (Magnuson-Moss won't help), you could demand arbitration. That process is outlined in one of the original manuals and Toyota site. Arbitration rules and outcomes vary by state and Toyota distributorship.

To see if your car is still under warranty and what if any service history was recorded in the Toyota system, join this site and search your VIN.

https://www.toyota.com/owners/my-veh...ervice-history

They said the metal was from the bearings which were destroyed due to oil starvation. Yet my oil levels were perfect.

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The bearings can be starved of oil even in a full system. This is usually the result of a blocked oil pickup or bearing gallery. This was a "common" issue on the 13s but is very rare in the later versions.

Could you elaborate on why Magnusson-Moss won't help?

What is the reason given why it isn't covered by warranty? A spun bearing and metal in the engine were caused by something, keep asking what it was.

El Presidente, I'm not an attorney but from reviewing Magnuson-Moss claims progress on several auto forums, a claim invoking M-M becomes a vicious cycle that almost always wears down the claimant financially and worse.

All manufacturers including Toyota use about the same verbiage in the owner's manuals saying that non-OEM parts of equivalent quality may be used.

Then it's up to the claimant to prove the non-OEM part was equivalent meaning documenting to the arbitrator's satisfaction that the part was designed, manufactured, tested and certified to perform at least equal to the OEM part.

Then if it is proven, the manufacturer's expert witness could blame the non-OEM and demand the claimant pursue the non-OEM manufacturer as co-warrantor and the process repeats.

This assumes the claimant can first prove no abuse occurred, an almost impossible task.

Most will fold the tent and move on with nothing to show but attorney's fees exceeding what would've been the cost of repair.

This repair is not covered under warranty because the damage was intentional by the owner. Fighting with the stealer is a major headache.
why don't you just trade in the car ?

Whether it should be covered by warranty or not may be a moot point since it is a 2015. Need to know the original date of sale to the first owner to know if it is still even covered. If even over by 1 day than no point in even trying to fight.

In reality, you are paying your lawyer for each minute while the manufacturer has a legal department and engineers on staff... and they can write off their legal expense against taxes, you can't. The odds are stacked in their favour. Sure there is a chance you can pull it off but it's like playing blackjack against the house in Vegas.

And the arbitration programs, free to consumers, are funded by auto manufacturers in most states.

That's true. It could be passed the 5 years. I assumed it is in warranty time period still.

I did as well until I remembered we are more than half way through 2019 already.
Could also have been sold in 2014.

Standard warranty is only 3 years/36k miles right? So it's out regardless. Or did I miss where the OP bought extended?

If it can be determined to be a result of something that would have been covered by the valve recall, Toyota should pay to fix it, even if the recall wasn't done.

The difficulty is getting that approved by Toyota.

Oh, and the drivetrain is 5/60000

It is a 2015.

Well, never mind then on the recall.

So far.

Oh yeah forgot about the powertrain.

I posted this 5-6 years ago to help with warranty basics:


***DISCLAIMER: The subsequent material does not constitute legal advice or legal representation in any way, shape, or form. The material is provided for ENTERTAINMENT PURPOSES ONLY, and was originally posted on an Internet community forum. The views expressed herein do not necessarily reflect the views of the owners, moderators, or administrators of the Internet forum. No portion of the subsequent material may be reproduced, retransmitted, copied, posted, printed, downloaded, or linked without express written consent from a site administrator.


There is a great deal of confusion regarding vehicle modifications and manufacturer warranties on the Internet. What follows are some simplistic clarifications to help consumers navigate the murky waters of vehicle modifications and warranties.


Magnusson-Moss Warranty Act: This act provides a host of benefits for common consumers, and some protections for automotive enthusiasts as well. The Magnusson-Moss Warranty Act may be viewed as a federal "lemon law" (California's state lemon law is the Song-Beverly Consumer Warranty Act). Lemon laws serve the basic function of protecting the consumer from vehicle defects and improper warranty denial or abuse.


Magnusson-Moss provides that before a manufacturer can deny warranty coverage as a result of a vehicle modification (e.g., aftermarket exhaust or wheels), the manufacturer must provide proof or evidence that the aftermarket part caused or contributed to a warranty concern or issue. [*Please check your owner's manual for the extent and duration of all vehicle warranties before attempting to assert protections provided by Magnusson-Moss.]

For example, if you have an aftermarket exhaust, and you take your car to the dealership to service a transmission issue, the manufacturer must demonstrate a causal link between your aftermarket exhaust and the transmission issue in order to deny warranty coverage that would have addressed the transmission issue.


In the event that an aftermarket part or component is found to have caused or contributed to a warranty issue, then the warranty for that specific manufacturer part is no longer valid; the warranty for the rest of the vehicle still remains in effect. For example, a manufacturer cannot void your powertrain (engine/transmission) warranty because you installed an aftermarket stereo head unit and amplifier in your car, and your factory speakers are now blown and no longer functional. Only the portion of the manufacturer's warranty for the vehicle's factory (original) sound system is affected. Your powertrain warranty remains intact despite the fact you modified the interior of your car, damaged the factory speakers, and no longer have warranty coverage for your factory/original sound system.


Real World Implications: Despite the protections provided by Magnusson-Moss, many automotive dealerships (which are independently owned and operated) will attempt to void vehicle warranties (or refuse service under warranty) because of aftermarket parts or modifications because they know that many people are not aware of their rights, will not go through the trouble of fighting the dealership and/or manufacturer, or do not want to wait to have vehicle service performed at a later date. *Remember that your vehicle warranties are through the manufacturer, and that the dealership is compensated by the manufacturer for warranty service when the service is approved by the manufacturer or its service divisions.


Preventative Solutions/Tips:
1) Try to have your vehicle serviced at a dealership that is fair and reasonable with respect to vehicle modifications. Inquire as to the dealership's stance regarding modifications before going in for service with aftermarket parts installed. Some dealerships are owned by enthusiasts and they appreciate the modifications performed by owners, and other dealerships don't want to deal with the potential liability or headaches that come with servicing modified vehicles under warranty. There are many dealerships that take no issue with modifications such as air intakes, cat-back exhausts, lowering springs, and aftermarket wheels, but draw the line at more involved modifications such as forced induction or aftermarket tunes. Conversely, there are dealerships that will take issue with minor modifications such as an aftermarket air filter or an axle-back exhaust.


2) Certain manufacturers provide branded performance parts such as intakes and lowering springs from in-house racing developers or third party affiliates such as TRD or STi. Performance upgrades from these sources are often backed with factory warranties so long as they are installed by a dealer. This is one potential way to avoid warranty hassles, but the trade-off is that these upgrade parts are limited in application and can be rather expensive.


3) Some dealerships will even install aftermarket (not from TRD or STi) parts for you, but be aware that if something goes wrong, and a warranty issue arises, all bets are off regarding your treatment by the dealership. If possible, get a written representation from the dealership that installed the aftermarket parts that you will be covered in the event of a subsequent warranty issue.


Editor's note: Organizations such as SEMA can provide you with more in-depth information and additional resources regarding the aftermarket industry and aftermarket parts.

from the dealer's perspective they probably think you ran it low on oil, screwed up the engine, filled it back up and brought it to them. i dont see an easy way out of this one. good luck in court.

Back to the question of "oil starvation," I lost an engine in my 2014 at 65K miles as a result of oil starvation. When the dealer tore down the engine, the oil pump gear had shattered. No oil pump gear, no oil flowing. No oil flowing, bearings spin. Mine went from accelerating away from an intersection to dead in a matter of seconds. The main difference between your story and mine is that I didn't get any warning at all, no ticking or other sound.

I'm at least the second person on the forum this happened to, and I suspect some of the other failures blamed on oil starvation were caused by the same part. I know there were some people whose dealers said the engine was lost to a spun bearing. A spun bearing is a symptom, not a cause. Something else caused that bearing not to be oiled properly, and unless they can prove it was something you did, the warranty should cover it if the warranty is still in effect.

https://i315.photobucket.com/albums/...459092_HDR.jpg

If you do end of having to pay out of pocket. Used low mileage engine are all over for under 3k$ a shop should do the swap for 2k$ at most. Or do swap yourself over a long weekend with a buddy.

out of curiosity, did you have any work done that couldve resulted in a dealer tech applying sealant in the motor? theyre notorious for using too much, and causing excess sealant to get into oil passages.

Call Toyota Corporate for assistance. Ask if they can good will a repair or help with repair costs. It sounds like the dealership is pointing to your car being out of warranty. Hopefully the last oil change was serviced at the dealership and at the dealership you bought it from so it would show some sort of "dealership loyalty" which could make them more lenient.

I needed new cams on my FR-S and I asked Toyota Corporate for assistance and they agreed to front the part cost and also from my dealership I got a discount on the labor for being a loyal customer.

The first thing the dealership checked was to make sure it was still under warranty. It still fell withing the 5 year 60,000 mile powertrain.

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Did you call Toyota Customer Care and make a report? I just got off the phone with them and they said the only way anything will change is if more owners report this problem.

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Just got off the phone with Toyota Customer Care, it's like talking to a brick wall. I was told that once a claim is denied by the warranty department there is no further action that can be taken. I asked about speaking to anyone higher or getting a number to call the warranty department and was told there was no way to contact them.

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Mine is a Subaru. It was covered under warranty with no questions asked, so there was no reason for me to involve anyone at a higher level.

You'll end up having to sue them for it. I'd go talk to a lawyer about the best way to proceed. Maybe an attorney can convince them it's not worth their while to fight you.

That is important to know.


Not sure about OP's state but in many places a consultation is free so there is zero risk in speaking to a lawyer.

Do you know yet what part failed that dumped metal shavings into the engine? That is the first order of business. Everything else is irrelevant until you figure out the cause. Depending on what failed, you, the mechanic, service writer, Toyota, and your lawyer can start fighting about what caused the unknown part to fail (e.g. low oil, faulty part, improper repair such as over-doing sealant on a timing cover job).

What part failed really doesn't matter if it's under warranty and he didn't do anything to cause the failure. When mine went in, they didn't say, "We'll tear it down to see what caused it, THEN decide whether to honor the warranty." They said, "It's under warranty, you're covered, here's your loaner car."

Furthermore, it sounds like the dealership has decided not to honor the warranty before actually finding the cause. How do they know it was something he did if they haven't done any work on it? They don't. Some shavings in the oil are not a substitute for disassembly and inspection.

Magnuson-Moss says they can't do that. If they're going to deny the warranty, they have to be able to show that he caused the problem, which is very unlikely if they haven't taken anything apart to find out what happened.

You said it yourself: they have to tear it down to determine the cause. The dealer wants a signature on an estimate that says the teardown will be covered by the responsible party. If the results of the inspection show an issue that will be covered under warranty, Toyota will honor the cost of the inspection and subsequent repair. However, if the cause is determined to be negligence on the part of the current or previous owner, or secondary to a failed aftermarket parts, the dealer doesn't want to be on the hook for several hundred dollars in labor.

The issue is that the current owner (OP) likely doesn't want to sign their name to an estimate like this because of some unfounded belief that having a warranty suddenly means that all of the labor associated with diagnosis of any failure, ultimately covered or not, is the responsibility of the manufacturer and its dealer network. Or OP knows there are gaps in the history of the car that might be revealed to be causative and thus result in denial of warranty coverage for this failure.

You make a very big assumption that "OP didn't do anything to cause the failure." The dealer cannot afford to eat huge labor costs simply because the "think" that nothing nefarious has happened. That's why the diagnosis is required before making a final judgment. Toyota will honor the warranty if they find something that provides incontrovertible evidence that a manufacturing defect or authorized repair failure occurred.