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-   -   Ptunning Oil Cooler or just get the Jackson Racing (https://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=134712)

dpaqu 05-15-2019 04:56 PM
Ptunning Oil Cooler or just get the Jackson Racing
 
I had convinced myself last fall that using fancy Motul 300v 30weight oil would save me from violating my warranty by putting an oil cooler on the car but I'm really starting to question that wisdom. What cooler for summer track days on a stock 86? Is there enough headroom in the stock radiator to utilize the water/oil cooler from Ptuning or just get the Jackson racing kit with the Air/Oil setup. I don't anticipate ever going FI on this thing but I do daily it.

ZDan 05-15-2019 10:00 PM
Casual track days? You might skip the oil cooler, I did... 270ish isn't *that* hot ;) I do run 5W30 synthetic to get viscosity a smidge closer to nominal.

Or as someone else in one of these threads suggested, you could send a fresh sample of oil to Blackstone, then send another sample after tracking the car and see what they say about oil degradation and/or metallic particles. If oil isn't degrading and metal isn't being eroded beyond reasonable levels for your usage, why bother with an oil cooler?

BlueWhelan 05-15-2019 10:38 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZDan (Post 3218143)
Casual track days? You might skip the oil cooler, I did... 270ish isn't *that* hot ;) I do run 5W30 synthetic to get viscosity a smidge closer to nominal.

Or as someone else in one of these threads suggested, you could send a fresh sample of oil to Blackstone, then send another sample after tracking the car and see what they say about oil degradation and/or metallic particles. If oil isn't degrading and metal isn't being eroded beyond reasonable levels for your usage, why bother with an oil cooler?
Because it only takes one instance of excessively low oil pressure to damage the bearings. The problem isn't about the oil itself degrading (it can take it), its about the drop in viscosity and oil pressure that results from elevated temperatures. Its the oil pressure drop that kills engines, and the main cause of that is high oil temperature. A thicker weight oil will help of course, but if you are tracking during the summer months there is no substitute for a quality oil cooler.

To answer the OP's question, I'd just get the Jackson (or Perrin for less $$) and hit the track with piece of mind.

+1 to getting a Blackstone test done every once in a while too.

DarkPira7e 05-15-2019 10:49 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueWhelan (Post 3218157)
The problem isn't about the oil itself degrading (it can take it), its about the drop in viscosity and oil pressure that results from elevated temperatures. Its the oil pressure drop that kills engines, and the main cause of that is high oil temperature.
This. Oil thins when hot. Thin oil has less pressure at the same volume, and our engines do not take well to low pressure. Cooling the oil works well because pressure drop is reduced, you're not cooling the oil so much because of it just being hot. :brokenheart:

ZDan 05-15-2019 10:53 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueWhelan (Post 3218157)
Because it only takes one instance of excessively low oil pressure to damage the bearings. The problem isn't about the oil itself degrading (it can take it), its about the drop in viscosity and oil pressure that results from elevated temperatures. Its the oil pressure drop that kills engines, and the main cause of that is high oil temperature.
My oil temperature remains stable at about ~272F indicated at the track. The viscosity at that temp is sufficient to provide enough oil pressure to keep the engine alive for a couple of track seasons anyway...

I'm not worried, but if someone *is* worried it's IMO worth the low price of having Blackstone analysis done before and after a track event before resorting to the cost and potential problems associated with having an oil cooler installed.

Yoshoobaroo 05-15-2019 10:55 PM
If the main problem is oil pressure, maybe install an oil pressure gauge first?

ZDan 05-15-2019 11:32 PM
Regarding oil pressure with vs. without an oil cooler:
https://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=91820
http://i.imgur.com/m8H5JBA.jpg

From this data it looks like with 5w30 and no oil cooler, oil temps get up to ~275F and pressure is ~7.5 psi/1000rpm.

WITH an oil cooler and 5w30 oil, temps are down around 250F, but pressure is still ~7.5psi/1000rpm.

Theory: increase in pressure from cooler oil is exactly negated by the pressure drop from the cooler itself, maybe?

Anyway, I haven't seen any evidence that I *need* an oil cooler for my track usage, so for me, IMO it's not worth the cost/effort/risk of having one installed.

86_IT 05-16-2019 12:37 AM
Go Jackso Racing. Perrin kit is easy to outgrow as you get faster and begin to turn multiple hotlaps.

Tristor 05-16-2019 01:21 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZDan (Post 3218179)
Regarding oil pressure with vs. without an oil cooler:
https://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=91820
http://i.imgur.com/m8H5JBA.jpg

From this data it looks like with 5w30 and no oil cooler, oil temps get up to ~275F and pressure is ~7.5 psi/1000rpm.

WITH an oil cooler and 5w30 oil, temps are down around 250F, but pressure is still ~7.5psi/1000rpm.

Theory: increase in pressure from cooler oil is exactly negated by the pressure drop from the cooler itself, maybe?

Anyway, I haven't seen any evidence that I *need* an oil cooler for my track usage, so for me, IMO it's not worth the cost/effort/risk of having one installed.

Where are you seeing people get temps of 250F with an oil cooler? In high summer in South Texas I see temps around 220F on track with a dual-rad oil cooler, I strongly doubt anyone running a standalone oil cooler is going to exceed that. Based on the chart you posted, it's pretty clear that pressure is nearly double with an oil cooler given a hot temp of 220F.

ZDan 05-16-2019 07:25 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tristor (Post 3218200)
Where are you seeing people get temps of 250F with an oil cooler?
In the linked thread...

Quote:
In high summer in South Texas I see temps around 220F on track with a dual-rad oil cooler, I strongly doubt anyone running a standalone oil cooler is going to exceed that.
Yet the data we see here clearly shows temps near 250F with an oil cooler...
It's not my data so I can't directly vouch for it, but clearly they did see a significant reduction in oil temperatures with the cooler, down from ~275F without.

Quote:
Based on the chart you posted, it's pretty clear that pressure is nearly double with an oil cooler given a hot temp of 220F.
???
CLEARLY they were running temps up to 250F with an oil cooler, vs. 275F without, so pressures at those operational temperatures are what should be compared.

NoHaveMSG 05-16-2019 09:12 AM
I regularly hit 250+ with oil cooler :iono:

I also don't see the point of running 5-30, I did all last year and saw very little to no improvement since the oil pump seems to cavitate at 5800rpm and pressure drops hard all the way to red line. Watch rice classics video in his "SCCA T4 Build" thread. In his video you can see his car do the same thing, oil pressure is left gauge in the center console.

smg1138 05-16-2019 11:41 AM
Not trying to get too off topic, but did have sort of a related question. Would it be worth running 5w30 for autocross and light track duty in summer? Around here ambient temps can get well into the upper 90's during the summer and have wondered if I should switch to something thicker than 0w20?

dpaqu 05-16-2019 11:58 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZDan (Post 3218143)
Casual track days? You might skip the oil cooler, I did... 270ish isn't *that* hot ;) I do run 5W30 synthetic to get viscosity a smidge closer to nominal.

Or as someone else in one of these threads suggested, you could send a fresh sample of oil to Blackstone, then send another sample after tracking the car and see what they say about oil degradation and/or metallic particles. If oil isn't degrading and metal isn't being eroded beyond reasonable levels for your usage, why bother with an oil cooler?


I did run the Blackstone test after last seasons two track days. They were cooler days and I sucked at driving more so I doubt I was dumping the heat into it like I will on my next track day in June.

dpaqu 05-16-2019 12:02 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoHaveMSG (Post 3218242)
I regularly hit 250+ with oil cooler :iono:

I also don't see the point of running 5-30, I did all last year and saw very little to no improvement since the oil pump seems to cavitate at 5800rpm and pressure drops hard all the way to red line. Watch rice classics video in his "SCCA T4 Build" thread. In his video you can see his car do the same thing, oil pressure is left gauge in the center console.

What oil cooler are you running?

Quote:
Originally Posted by smg1138 (Post 3218286)
Not trying to get too off topic, but did have sort of a related question. Would it be worth running 5w30 for autocross and light track duty in summer? Around here ambient temps can get well into the upper 90's during the summer and have wondered if I should switch to something thicker than 0w20?

5W30 is the recommended oil in other countries not as concerned with fuel economy.

ZDan 05-16-2019 12:03 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by smg1138 (Post 3218286)
Not trying to get too off topic, but did have sort of a related question. Would it be worth running 5w30 for autocross and light track duty in summer? Around here ambient temps can get well into the upper 90's during the summer and have wondered if I should switch to something thicker than 0w20?
IMO there's no reason not to run 5w30 if you're going to be tracking it.

dpaqu 05-16-2019 12:14 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by 86_IT (Post 3218188)
Go Jackso Racing. Perrin kit is easy to outgrow as you get faster and begin to turn multiple hotlaps.

From reading your posts it looks like you have a lot of track time. Any thoughts on the oil to water setups?

NoHaveMSG 05-16-2019 12:19 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dpaqu (Post 3218293)
What oil cooler are you running?
Setrab 613

RSCrawford 05-16-2019 02:15 PM
data
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZDan (Post 3218179)
Regarding oil pressure with vs. without an oil cooler:
https://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=91820
http://i.imgur.com/m8H5JBA.jpg

From this data it looks like with 5w30 and no oil cooler, oil temps get up to ~275F and pressure is ~7.5 psi/1000rpm.

WITH an oil cooler and 5w30 oil, temps are down around 250F, but pressure is still ~7.5psi/1000rpm.

Theory: increase in pressure from cooler oil is exactly negated by the pressure drop from the cooler itself, maybe?

Anyway, I haven't seen any evidence that I *need* an oil cooler for my track usage, so for me, IMO it's not worth the cost/effort/risk of having one installed.
A forum post backed up with hard data, you sir are outstanding.

Good info.

FirstWinter 05-16-2019 02:40 PM
Jackson Racing or Greddy.

new2subaru 05-16-2019 02:42 PM
@falcon_wizard

More data.

https://www.ft86club.com/forums/show...&postcount=328

I don't know why you wouldn't run a cooler for track. I installed mine this pat winter.

Icecreamtruk 05-16-2019 03:39 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by new2subaru (Post 3218369)
@falcon_wizard

More data.

https://www.ft86club.com/forums/show...&postcount=328

I don't know why you wouldn't run a cooler for track. I installed mine this pat winter.
Because apparently a couple of hundreds and an hour or two to install a sandwich plate and a couple of lines is too much work and risks involved and people would rather throw a new engine in for a couple thousands every couple of years. Why else would it be, right?

strat61caster 05-16-2019 05:34 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Icecreamtruk (Post 3218390)
Because apparently a couple of hundreds and an hour or two to install a sandwich plate and a couple of lines is too much work and risks involved and people would rather throw a new engine in for a couple thousands every couple of years. Why else would it be, right?
If I blow up my engine maybe I don't have to go in for the valve spring recall...

ZDan 05-16-2019 06:08 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by new2subaru (Post 3218369)
https://www.ft86club.com/forums/show...&postcount=328
I don't know why you wouldn't run a cooler for track. I installed mine this pat winter.
Looking at 2nd plot, if my oil temp steadily climbed to 280F during a track session without stabilizing, I would definitely consider an oil cooler. My oil temp consistently goes up to just over 270F and then holds, every event, every session. In my case the oil temperature is under control and not trying to "run away", and in my judgement 275F is not unreasonable for 5w30 synthetic in this car for my usage (~12 track days per year, ~4 15-min. sessions per day).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Icecreamtruk (Post 3218390)
Because apparently a couple of hundreds and an hour or two to install a sandwich plate and a couple of lines is too much work and risks involved and people would rather throw a new engine in for a couple thousands every couple of years. Why else would it be, right?
I don't think not running an oil cooler for limited track usage equates to needing a new engine every couple of years...
I don't think an oil cooler is a bad idea for casual track usage, I just don't think it's necessarily a requirement.

ayau 05-16-2019 08:16 PM
Casual track days? Probably not worth the risk considering it's another point of failure.

Also if your engine fails with an oil cooler, Subaru won't warranty it. Maybe you're able to carefully remove the oil cooler, so it looks like it was never there in the first place.

If your engine is STOCK and doesn't have an oil cooler, you have a better chance of Subaru covering it under warranty.

new2subaru 05-16-2019 08:56 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZDan (Post 3218477)
Looking at 2nd plot, if my oil temp steadily climbed to 280F during a track session without stabilizing, I would definitely consider an oil cooler. My oil temp consistently goes up to just over 270F and then holds, every event, every session. In my case the oil temperature is under control and not trying to "run away", and in my judgement 275F is not unreasonable for 5w30 synthetic in this car for my usage (~12 track days per year, ~4 15-min. sessions per day).


I don't think not running an oil cooler for limited track usage equates to needing a new engine every couple of years...
I don't think an oil cooler is a bad idea for casual track usage, I just don't think it's necessarily a requirement.
I could get 7 laps in on a short track and my oil would start climbing past 250F. That was enough for me to pit and cool down. I was toast anyways but that's besides the point lol

I would not want my oil at 275F but to each his own.

ZDan 05-16-2019 09:29 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by new2subaru (Post 3218524)
I would not want my oil at 275F but to each his own.
From another oil cooler thread in which I go on a bit...
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showt...+cooler&page=2
FWIW here's how Ford characterizes oil temperatures in '18 Mustang Factory Service Manual:
38-60° C (100-140° F) (low)
61-137° C (142-279° F) (normal)
138-146° C (279-295° F) (warm)
147-160° C (297-320° F) (hot)

new2subaru 05-16-2019 09:53 PM
I'll keep that in mind if I ever buy a Mustang :barf:


JK, like I said to each his own. I'd rather have my oil temps on the lower side.

nico_rsx 05-16-2019 10:07 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Icecreamtruk (Post 3218390)
Because apparently a couple of hundreds and an hour or two to install a sandwich plate and a couple of lines is too much work and risks involved and people would rather throw a new engine in for a couple thousands every couple of years. Why else would it be, right?

People who do autocross in street class (like me), can't install an oil cooler because of the rules. It's a stupid rule, but it is what it is.

86_IT 05-17-2019 12:15 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dpaqu (Post 3218297)
From reading your posts it looks like you have a lot of track time. Any thoughts on the oil to water setups?
I'd keep your cooling systems as separate as possible.

jflogerzi 05-19-2019 10:10 PM
If your not going FI a separate oil cooler is all you need. The stock radiator is more then up to the task for cooling. I went with the Jackson racing dual cooler as I have a sprintex supercharger kit and did not want to have an additional radiator in the path of the intercooler increasing IAT's. The size of the oil cooler, the number of events you plan to do and your skill will determine what size you need. Look at map's kit. You can get the larger kit for pretty cheap which uses mocal parts.

Sent from my ONEPLUS A5010 using Tapatalk

Buteo 05-19-2019 10:25 PM
Had a Jackson racing dual radiator/oil cooler installed this past month. First couple track days without the cooler I’d see 270ish temps, now at track I’ve barely touched 230.

Tristor 05-20-2019 12:24 AM
I have better data logging capabilities this year than I did last year. Once we get to proper high summer, I'll be happy to post some graphs from some of my track days. All I can say is that an oil cooler is a good idea, I stand by my statements, and everybody gets to determine their own risk profile for their own car. For me, I will pour any sensible amount of money into improving oiling because this platform has serious oiling issues and I believe this is the primary reason for track failures. An oil cooler is a cheap start, and surely will not be the last thing I do.


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