2013 FR-S Misfire and Rough Idle
 

Hello everyone, I'm new to the forum, finally approved to post. I have spent the last 2 weeks doing research on my issue and am nearing a dead-end and was hoping to see if maybe someone had better ideas.



The car is a 2013 Scion FR-S that I picked up wrecked out of Florida for my fiance. Light front end damage, no airbag fired, just took out the radiator support above the crash bar. I have the body all done from a Series 10 front clip I found not far so everything pretty much swapped over. Was hoping to have a quick weekend project, and would have been that way if it wasn't for an engine issue I then encountered...



The car started and drove off the delivery truck, down the street and into the garage. had a big vacuum leak due to cracked intake pipe/box etc past the maf sensor, no biggie. After the bodywork was swapped over, I tapped off the cracks in the intake pipe and fired the car up to add coolant. The car ran for probably a good 15 minutes while I did some other stuff with the fenders and burped the coolant system.



During this time I saw the gas line came on, so with the car running (I know I know) i popped the lid and added some gas from the canister I had (93 pump im 95% certain.. slight chance was 87 but highly doubt it)

Car kept running, after about 5 minutes I closed the hood and went for a spin around the neighborhood. Car felt awesome, im excited to get it on the road, after this I drove it to the gas station right across the street from the neighborhood.



Filled up 93 pump gas, and topped it off like I do my GS400 and Supra, so it was really full. I go to crank the car on and its having issues starting, finally starts but is running rough as hell. The CEL comes on pretty soon and goes into the limp mode with the traction and abs lights on. I get it home and park it.



Over the next couple of days I have read a few codes, but only 1 consistently stays on, and is first to come on: P0303 cylinder 3 misfire detected. Other codes I have seen is Bank 1 Lean (cant remember code).



Here is what I have done so far... (thinking it had to be fueling related..maybe car sat way long with bad gas, had a crapy filter, had junk in the tank, etc ect):


1) removed and tried to clean out the injectors (fed 12 volts while pumping some fuel). They all seemed to fire ok.

2) Removed coils and swapped to a different cylinder
3) changed all plugs (I am not a master at plug changes, can do all 4 in maybe 2 hours start to finish lol)

4) changed the intake manifold (thinking maybe there was a fracture) with all new gaskets.

5) Changed all seal on the injectors (including 1 of the direct port injector seals -this ended up not being all that bad either) and also swapped them places to see if problem would go to a different cylinder

6) opened up the tank and drained about 1 gallon of fuel out of it in case I was over pressuring the system somehow by topping off..

7) checked all possible fuses under the hood

8) checked and double checked all vacuum line connections.. I don't know how I could miss something with this after so much looking..

9) swapped MAF sensor

10) installed an undamaged intake pipe





last night after the last steps did not work I am simply out of ideas.. the car is on a recall for the valve springs, but I would know a failed spring... the engine simply seems to misfire, no weird rattling noises.



Not sure if maybe the coil wire got damaged though I don't see how since its way down under the intake and ran perfectly fine for like 20-30 minutes until I filled up.



My only idea is maybe trying a different fuel ecu thats mounted to the 1st bank...? Since the Lean code is also coming on (and after testing injectors as well as swapping them place, and doing new plugs with a different coil on each cylinder) could it be that this cylinder is simply not getting a fire pulse from the injector ecu......?



Any and all input would be VERY much appreciated as I am starting to lose my mind...



Thanks all,


Roman



I have not done a compression test yet either simply because I am pretty certain nothing mechanically is wrong, but tell me if I am wrong..

For anyone interested here is the car and the series 10 front cliphttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...c65793d2eb.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...f89b1df0d7.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...2aa5e08f41.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...73ae80e675.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...8b738351b2.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...a786e71da7.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...4293b22652.jpg

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And if this helps at all... these are the system status pics I got from the obdii scannerhttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...1e564658d2.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...bc954320bb.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...d4530ab364.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...89df67ab0f.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...0b74b1dbe0.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...62819067cf.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...b211279eab.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...1b3741ffb6.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...2ab2351e8d.jpg

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Hello aemravan and welcome to our forum - :clap:

Well now, here was your first mistake - :eyebulge:

"The car is a 2013 Scion FR-S that I picked up wrecked out of Florida for my fiance."

Trust this ol boy, fiancées don't like used, wrecked stuff.

OK, it appears that you have done a bunch of stuff to try to fix the problem.- :thumbsup:

Now, although I have a 2013 FR-S, I have no idea what is wrong with your car, however, I'll ring up ol @steve99, who is one smart cookie, to see if he has any ideas.

What would I do? I'd take it into my local shop and have them figure out what was wrong and fix it. Then go home and take a nap and wait for their call.


humfrz

One of your live data pictures showing SHRTFT at +20% while the other is at -9%, if you had a bank 1 lean, that means fuel trims were maxed and the AF sensor was still asking for more fuel. there is a difference between these two states... With that said, it's counter intuitive because it often smells like unburnt fuel, but a misfire makes a bank go lean as seen from the AF sensor, because it throws a lot more air into the exhaust than it does fuel.

OR, Cylinder 3 may have a condition that makes it miss before the others when the mixture goes very lean. Welcome to the fun non-ignition misfires! It would be silly not to check fuel pressure as the problem surfaced post fill-up after the car sat for a long time (assuming since it was a wreck), there may have been deposits in the fuel thank that got kicked up and clogged the system. Checking the fuel pressure for the high side is easy enough with a scan tool, for the low side, well, you'll need a fuel pressure gauge.

If that checks out, check compression. That checks out too? Move the injectors to other cylinders.

The fuel pressure is around 500-700 psi on idle for the high pressure line. I would find it very interesting if there was low pressure but only cylinder 3 had the misfire issue. Also, all injectors, coils and plugs have been changed/swapped places.

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Allrighty then, how about compression?

I have a compression tester on the way, really wish I did it when I had all the plugs out...but no big deal. Should be able to get some numbers monday evening once it arrives. Also found a reasonably priced injectors ecu on fleebay for like 50 bucks so figured at this point it may be worth a shot.

humfrz good thing it was her idea then ;)
We were looking for a project car to work on together that she could then drive so we can get rid of the Altima she has now before it gets too old. Aside from getting frustrated with the misfire thus far its been a really fun experience (at a really decent price too ;) )

It seems a bit suspect that it ran fine till you refueled it.


Then it runs crap tgrows lean cel codes and one of your pictures shows +20 % fuel trims.


Im just guessing here but either you have an exhaust or intake leak. They usually snd fuel trims positive


It possiblle car has some weird tune in it as lots of these car tuned. If it was tuned for e85 id expect big negitive fuel trims if you put petrol in it.





Idle vaccum should be about 10 psi below atmospheric ie atomspheric is 14 psi so idle manifold pressure should ve about 4 psi unless its got a leak.


If fuel trims are high at low rom and idle but ok once you get to 3000 rpm or so its likely exhaust leak if idle vaccum was ok


It might have some tune for turbo or supercharger and they pulled it off

Thanks for in the insight Steve! Certainly appreciate it.

I will try and get the car idling some-what solid and check the manifold pressure.



Regarding the fuel trims, I think the screen captures may be a little deceiving as they were all over the place while I took the picture, I think maybe because the engine speed was not consistent and a couple of time sit would drop really low, to like 300-400 rpm and then spike back up to 1300. There is another insistence within 15 seconds where the fuel trims are actually negative if I am not mistaking.



For a tune/super/turbo charger, I am about 99.9% certain this car has never had anything done do it, possibly not even regular service. I am basing this from the condition of the interior as well as the contents left behind in the trunk of the vehicle when I got it:


1) numerous women's clothing items, including a very large set of ...uh..what I hope.. were somewhat clean underwear, lotions, etc
2) beach-going stuff for a child, along with many other small childrens toys
3) the vehicle was wrecked and surrendered to insurance right after, there definitely was nothing taken off in the shape of a turbo due to the fact that I have removed various shapes and sizes of remains of the factory intake box/pipe etc.



I am going to get some compression numbers (at least on the troublesome cylinder 3 ) this evening after work to see if I can rule that out. If that checks out I will proceed to look for a vacuum leak until the fuel injector ecu shows up as aside from that I am simply lost to what the issue could be.



Thanks again for all the input. I'll follow up as soon as I have any more results or information to share.

Well damn.. good news/bad news. Found the culprit...

Cylinder 1 compression: 180.

Cylinder 3 compression: 90.



Didn't bother checking 2 and 4 as its pretty obvious.



Here is my next thing to figure out... the VIN number pulls up to be under recall that isn't done yet... I am assuming it shouldn't be an issue with Toyota if this indeed is a valve spring issue... what is the best way to be certain that this indeed is a valve spring/recall related issue?



My other issue... the car isn't registered yet, because it is a salvage title car it still needs to go in to the shop for a pre-inspection with the inspector, then a final after the body is repaired (a 1 week process for me so no big deal..) after the final inspection it needs to be inspected to be registered....well.....bc the CEL was cleared non of the systems are initialized, nor will they be due to the issue.. I guess I need to call up Toyota and see what would need to happen.... just wonderful! So much for a 25k mile car :) lol Should have done deeper search into early year issues.

I just can't believe of how much of a timing coincidence it ended up being with the damn fueling of the car....

You can remove the valve cover in place, should be possible to inspect the valve springs/lash without engine removal.

Or if you've got an air compressor, you can probably (depending on the specific one you bought) use part of you compression tester to send air into the cylinder and test for leaking valve(s).

Thanks man. I'll try and get it pressurized via the compressor tester I have, I think my vacuum hose on the compressor has the same fitting. HOpefully I can trace it to an intake valve issue.

I spoke with the toyota customer care center on the phone today and the lady told me it shouldn't be an issue to get the recall done as the VIN number did show up as eligible even though the car is salvaged. She then got me in contact with the local dealer who scheduled for me to get it there Saturday morning "to inspect for recall and order parts if needed"



I'll need to be 95% sure this issue is recall related before taking it saturday as the car will need to be towed and I'd hate to pay a tow bill 2 ways plus not get any results from the dealer.. So I guess time will tell..

so I found my issue....



took off the intake manifold to do a leak-down test, started inspecting the valves and had my fiance roll the motor over slowly... well... cylinder 3 the left hand intake valve does not move/moves just barely while the right one strokes all the way open and closed.



Not too familiar with these heads but I believe the valves are operated through some sort of a rocker? Question now is whether or not this could be directly related to the valve recall or not... now to get the car to the dealer saturday and see what happens..

It's possible.

The rocker and valve shim are held in place against the camshaft by the pressure from the valve spring. If the spring failed it's possible that the shim dropped out from under the rocker or that the rocker itself is misaligned. But that would hardly explain the low compression, at cranking speed, you're going to get a good cylinder fill from just one valve, that valve may not be seating well anymore. If you've still got the intake off, rotate the engine so no.3 is at compression TDC (all 4 valves closed), put some air in it and spray some soapy water on the closed valve.

Well the problem is I can tell the valve isnt all the way seated.. and even without soap and water I can hear it leaking large amount of air.
Not sure if the valve is seized or not but I'm not looking to try to move it and make the issue worse. At least thr car fires up right now so I'll just throw it back together and let Toyota figure out and let me know what they find.

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Ah so if it's visible not seating that's that then, it's probably safe to assume the spring failed and didn't close the valve in time, so it kissed the piston and got a little bendy.

That's what I am thinking too.. I'm assuming these are interface motors? I probably should have done a bit more research before diving head-first, but here I am :)

Now to hoping that it really is a failed spring and that the recall takes care of whatever other damage may have been caused but from reading all the horror stories over the past week I am not too optimistic about a smooth transaction with the dealer this weekend... I haven't come across a thread where the car had already suffered a spring failure prior to going in for the recall work so I'm not quite sure what to expect..

the surprising thing is that I haven't shot a rocker out of the valve cover, not does it sound too terrible (like its eating itself up in the head) when running which I find odd... the valve just isn't moving.. but I won't mess with it and just close it up. Already have a trailer scheduled for saturday morning to get it towed up there for inspection.

Rented a borescope today just to take a quick glance inside before it goes to Toyota to make sure there aren't any surprises.

First pic is cylinder 3, problem one, the other one is cylinder 1. I would say there was definitely contact to the valves...

Now it will be interesting to see what happens with the recall.. I hope they dont try to pull the "well it should have been fixed when the recall came out " card. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...60c173d982.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...61912c56d0.jpg

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It's their job to contact you for the recall, they can hardly blame you if you haven't received the letter.

The picture of the pistons doesn't necessarily show what you think. Especially with fire going the wrong way back out the cylinder on every stroke.

You need a borescope with a 90* head to look at the valve in the cylinder. You'll be able to see the valve closed on one side and open toward the center.

We deal with recalls on salvage title cars from time to time. Never had a problem with it.

Thanks for the input man.

With regards to the a 90 degree scope, I agree that I'm not able to see the valve from the cylinder end. I do see a visible gap between the valve and seat when it should be closed. you're right now, doesn't necessarily mean that its bent as that was my initial impression.



Got a trailer coming tomorrow at 6 a.m. to get to toyota at 7 for the initial round of what they said they need to do. "It will need to be inspected so that parts can be ordered" Not exactly sure what inspection it will go through, guessing probably just a VIN verification/check. Hopefully they have no issue with me leaving the car there for the duration.



With regards to the salvage title, I am not as concerned about the title portion itself as I am about the car not even being registered to me yet. It is still under the shop/dealer that I bought it from the auction. I can't get it sold/transfered to me until we do a state pre-inspection of damages and then a final inspection of damages fixed prior to it being able to be signed over to me.


But time will tell. I will certainly keep the relevant threads updated with what I come across.



I did change the oil just in case to inspect it, and did not find anything what I would consider abnormal as far as metal shavings/shiny reflections.

Thanks for all the input thus far.

Try new ignition coils and a compression test . I have a Wrx that was missing on third cylinder , I had swapped the coils around thinking the misfire would move to diff cylinder , it didn't . I ended buying new plugs and coils and it fixed the misfire with a much smoother idle .
Compression test can be a lil pricy 1-2 bills but it will at least tell you a bit more ie if you have a cracked cylinder , bad head ect
Try finding cheap used coils to try and see if that helps any ?


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Well both are already done. The intake valve is clearly not moving and isn't fully closed.

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You might want to quickly glance at the previous page.

Well...the car is with Toyota as of this morning.

The guy there said they apparently have done "a lot. Most of the Charlotte area ones" and said I was on the later tail end of the recall. Supposedly they are ordering parts Monday in the morning and could be repairing as early as Tuesday or Wednesday.

Now I'm sure that wont be the case once they find out what's inside of the head and the valve issue.. I did tell him briefly what my findings were but I'm sure that didnt register.

Told them I wasnt in a rush and to take their time with it so we'll see. I also completely blanked as far as a loaner car is concerned. I dont need one, we have 2 running cars aside from the supra for daily use. If anything comes up with me having to cover cost of some parts that aren't covered I may play the loaner not being supplied card though.. that is 35 bucks a day if I'm not mistaking.

Had a buddy tow it on his trailer, got a good look at it "on the road " finally and man..I can't wait to get it running !


Thanks again for all the input ! I'll keep you guys updated as to what ends up happening.https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...517bded1d5.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...fce8279262.jpg

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After reading the entire thread I would agree that the recall repair will correct your problem. Looks like you got one of the lucky 4%. Otherwise good job on the rebuild, pretty satisfying isn't it?

Meh.

There's a recall so they'll replace all the springs, but ordinarily if you'd have one spring fail and bump that one valve, just get that one head off, change one valve and one spring and close it back up, it's not really matter for a rebuild.

Thanks man, its satisfying indeed. Even with all the valvetrain issues that came up I still had a blast getting this thing to the point its at now. If if wasnt for a valve spring issue we would have had the car on the ground ready to paint in literally 1.5 days of work. But no worries there, just hoping everything goes smooth with the dealer and the motor is back to 100%.



Can't wait to get it back and get working on the paint stuff so we can slap it all together and get it on the road. I'm already wrapping the steering wheel in carbon fiber and have plans to do the same with the center section of the front lip we got going on it :)

A couple quick pics while car is at the dealer https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...9ecbb07858.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...0bf4c03fbd.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...30c5166a3e.jpg

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well so far not off to a roaring start. Got a call from the dealer with "not so good news"



"we can't work on this car because there is no warranty on it"



I asked if the guy was serious and what a safety recall has anything to do with a salvage title or car being under warranty or not? Informed him that I already called the customer care center to inquire about this and that they gave me a case number for a valid repair outstanding against the VIN. He asked that I get him the number so he can contact them direct and get confirmation.

Going to be awaiting his call in an hour or so and then contacting the customer care center directly myself.



He also claimed that the "motor was pulled previously by someone" I asked how he came to that conclusion and he said it was because his tech found some things that were "previously disconnected" ie: there was 1 harness that I had cut some zip ties off of. Regardless of that fact however, what the hell does any of that have anything to do with an outstanding safety recall on the vehicle? Not feeling so optimistic at this point.

Also just looked up the warranty information, 5 year 36k mile... 2013 FR-S with a 2018 November recall issue date, the car would have been out of warranty at the start of the recall regardless so I'm calling bullshit on that.

Also going to call bullshit on the "we determined the engine was pulled by looking at 3 zip ties out of place" claim as well. But for now i'll play nice and see what they'll say in the next hour or two

It's a Subaru engine, it's easier and faster to pull it out and work on it on a stand than working it in the hole.

No doubt about that. Also dont see how that is relevant to the said recall.

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The only way it could be relevant is if the engine number doesn't correspond to the one on the car's build sheet. We've seen that toyota won't do the spring recall if it isn't the car's original engine, but it would probably be on them to demonstrate that it isn't.

Just talked to the guy at the dealership, they were concerned about mismatched bins from the series 10 front end. And with some clips undone on the engine were afraid it was a swapped car. I told them no sir. They have a headquarters rep coming Thursday to verify the motor matches the car. So more waiting but hopefully is worth it

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Same process for my rebuilds, they have to confirm the engine is the one built with the chassis. Took them 7 days to get my first one approved and completed. Salvage title means nothing for a recall, they still have to do it.