HPDE tires - 2019 edition
 

Hello folks,

Bought a bone-stock 2015 FR-S a couple weeks ago as dedicated HPDE car. I drive the car to/from racetracks, and that's it. I'm in the Pacific Northwest, so rain is always a possibility.

I have done JR radiator/oil cooler, Castrol SRF, Carbotech XP10.

I'm a low intermediate driver in terms of skills. I did a lot of HPDEs several years back in a C6 Corvette. I just did my 1st HPDE in the FR-S. The stock tires are limiting. Maybe I'm kidding myself, but I feel even my limited skills could use a better tire.

I've googgled. Watched videos on TireRack. Read GRM.
I've read a bunch of older threads. Things change every year.
I'd like to discuss tire options for 2019. I'm leaning towards keeping the stock wheels, but open to going to a wider 17" wheel if it won't hinder my learning. Cost is not really a factor.

So far I'm looking at:
DUNLOP DIREZZA ZII STAR SPEC (there is some old stock left)
DUNLOP DIREZZA ZIII
HANKOOK VENTUS R-S4
YOKOHAMA ADVAN NEOVA AD08 R
Azenis RT615k+ (added per Vesartis)

Thoughts?

I just finished off a set of Falken Azenis RT615k+ in stock size (215/45R17) on stock wheels. I started on the stock Michelins, and when those were done I finished off some slightly used RS-3s and then got the Falkens for track use and the Continental Extreme Contact Sports for daily driving.

The Falkens keep the direct steering feel of the stock tires, while bringing up the grip levels significantly. They handle the heat pretty well, as long as pressures are set well (around 31-32 psi hot for me). They break away very progressively, so you can comfortably explore the limits. They don't ride any firmer than stock, and don't have any crazy pattern noise issues like some other tires. Since they aren't directional, just asymmetrical, you can rotate them around the car to even out wear. I found them very nice for learning, and got 5 track days and an autocross out of them. (Some 100+F days with slightly high pressures accelerated wear a bit more than expected) I highly recommend them for learning, just maybe not the most competitive tire.

Of the options you mentioned, I see a lot of RS-4s at the track. From what I hear, good grip and good wear rate, so overall good value. I might try them down the road.

What are you looking in a tire?
Lowest laptimes?
Good for learning?
Low cost? (maybe not if cost is not really a factor)

Stock tires and cheap tires (SX2, RSRR, RT615K) are great for learning, but you will go slower initially.
Some good info here:
https://yousuckatracing.wordpress.co...aining-wheels/

BTW: You will likely want to increase your front camber for less understeer and longer tire life. Camber bolts are easy. Or camber plates.

Stock tires limiting you how? If you're anything like me, the driver is the limiting factor. @CSG Mike_Mike got a video of a lap somewhere on stock tires?

Vesartis: thank you, I added the Azenis RT615k+ to my list.

treedodger: thank you.
1) Good for learning, with some squealing before the limit and progressive loss of traction
2) Able to withstand a 30 minute session on a hot day, and last at least 5 track days. Just because I don't want to worry about replacing tires too often..
3) More grip than stock tire. The stock tire squeals so much that I can't use sound as an indicator of grip. And I find myself wanting to carry more speed in a corner but can't. And I find myself braking too early and too softly because I don't trust the tire.

No doubt, a good driver could be a lot faster than me on stock tires.

But still, going through corners, when I get the line right, I want more speed. And if I accelerate just a little, I can tell I'm at the tires' limit.

Also, I did lead/follow with an instructor in a current M3, on a very wet track, focusing on the chicane at PIR. I could follow her tire marks in the wet. It was like the line on Forza. I took the chicane on the same line at the same slow speed... and started spinning in turn 2. Frustrating.

Wet is a different thing to consider, the stock Michelins especially lacked traction in wet conditions. I have not tried the Falkens in any water. You might need to consider that more heavily depending on how frequently you plan to track in the wet.

My goal is to do as little wet driving as possible. But rain happens and I don't want to lose half a track day when it does.
I know driving in the wet is good for learning. I've done it before in other cars. But yeah, with the stock tires, it was so bad that it was a waste of time.

I spun out at Laguna Seca in the wet on Michelin AS/3. Debeaded a tire. Not sure anything's gonna help in the pouring rain.

I was thinking I'd wait a little before buying rear LCA and camber plates.

In the meanwhile, the only cheap option is front camber bolts. Do those make sense with the stock rear LCA? Or is camber front and rear something that needs to be adjusted all or nothing?

And is "RSRR" the Federal 595RS-RR?

I am on stock suspension with front camber bolts. Stock alignment has front camber basically at zero, that really tears up the outside shoulder and tends to induce understeer. With just the camber bolts at a max of -1.4 in the front, I have seen much better tire wear and improved turn in. It obviously not the ideal track-dedicated setup, but it's pretty cheap and worth it if you aren't doing the full setup soon.

Yes.

Regarding camber bolts, what Vesartis said. Do it. Otherwise, the 86 is good to go, and it's superb platform to learn car control. Not too sticky tires and rain will accelerate the learning process. It is all about becoming comfortable with slip angle.

My experience has been that RS4s hold up really well to heat here in Texas as far as wear rate on track, but they are kind of dicey in the wet. The AD08Rs I have on now perform much better under wet conditions. Given you'll be potentially be in the wet and that PNW isn't Texas, I'd suggest you give the AD08Rs a try. In the end, you'll have to pick a set to start with and try them out, and see what you think yourself.

Also definitely get some camber bolts if you aren't doing top plates.

Maxxis VR1 comes in 215/40ZR17 that would fit on the stock rims. I just started using these tires have a couple sessions on them and they seem like good tires similar to RS4s.

I've heard Federal's stock of the RSRR's are pretty low to non-existent right now, as they are transitioning to a new tire/compound to replace it -- appears to be out overseas, not but released locally yet.

Leave the stockers on until they need replacing. That is the best way to learn the car. You'll get bigger slip angles so when you put stickier tires on you'll be more comfortable. That's why some of the better racing schools teach with hard tires.

Is this going to be your only set of tires or will you have a DD set? It rains too much around here to have 200TW tires on year round. If you are only rolling one set of wheels you may want to go with a PS4S or Extreme contact for a while. My RS3's were downright sketchy in the wet.

Back to your original questions as to what tires are relevant, the staples in no particular order, and across the full spectrum of grip/wear: sport comp2, re 71r, r888r, pilot sport4s.

Man, I don't know... I understand the logic of what you're saying... but I want more SPEED in corners!!! :D


The car is a dedicated HPDE car. I only drive it at most a couple hours to/from the track. That being said, wet track happens, so good to know.



I've read a lot about the RE 71R. My understanding is that it is very fast, but only for a very short amount of time before overheating. Great for ax, time attack and such, less so for 20-30 minute sessions. And they last 1-2 days. Has your experience been different?


The r888r: this thread talked me out of them: http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=129352


I need to read up on the others.

The R8888r is a decent HPDE tire, I use a very similar tire on my track Miata (Nitto NT-01R). The thing with the R888r compared to the faster Hoosier R7 is the R888r SUCKS, but it sucks for a long time. The R888r is not the fastest tire, but has good wear and decent grip. For ultimate track time, there is not much that can hang with the Hoosier R7. For HDPE, you want something predicatable, with long lasting grip. The R888r or NT-01r are good choices in this respect. I prefer the stiffer case of the NT-01r as they seem to have a better feel than the R888r. They both still allow a large amount of slip angle before letting go completely.

If you really want to stick in the corners, wide slicks and aero with stiff, lowered suspension - top hats+LCA to get the right camber.

Totally. That's the end game.
For now, I'm looking for the 1st incremental step up from completely stock.
Camber bolts and 200TW tires seem like a first step?

Sure. Cheap first step.

Don't overthink it. Buy, mount, balance, track day!

Part of the fun of all this is learning. I remember one race season, I tried 4 different brake compounds and 4 different tire compounds. It was super fun because I learned a ton and really got to settle into what optimized the car (and the driver).

You're buying street tires - not uber expensive race rubber so who cares. Buy a set of RE71rs, R888rs or whatever and go run them and take notes. Then buy something different and rinse/repeat. Learning about the character traits of equipment is part of driver education. And besides - you're not competing so none of this really matters, the only thing that matters is fun...





(and safety)

Hankook RS4, I've got 13 trackdays on my current set and should get 2-3 more. They are slightly slower than RE71r's but faster than 615k+ (I've run all 3). The RE71r's can be ruined in a single trackday but you usually get about 6 days on them and the 615k+ last 8-10 days.

The RS4 works fine in the wet and is very progressive in the dry. They are great trackday tires.

Speed in corners comes with driver mod. You'll be miles ahead in the long run if you learn more car control with the stock tires. People are too quick to put sticky tires on. You're a low intermediate driver in a car you haven't tracked. Do yourself a favor and wait on new tires.

Is your priority going fast, or getting long life, or maximizing learning?

Lower grip tires will force you to find other ways to find speed; the stock tires are fantastic for that.

Don't get stuck in the "corvette driver" mentality!

Next great step up from stock tires are Michelin MP4S. Great in the rain too.

As others have said, you'd want to get max camber up front. But instead of one pair of camber bolts, get two sets (for top and bottom). I was able to get -2.9 this way. Very cheap way to get better tire wear.

Some people say it might not hold the settings well that way, though.

I've read every thread I could find (and I don't suck at searching on the intarwebs) the more I read, the more confused I get as to which size bolt to buy (14 vs 16mm) and which hole to use (top vs bottom). Then some people say both. Others say camber bolt in bottom, then move bottom stock bolt to the top....

If I recollect correctly, camber bolts are usually for the bottom. You can get a crash bolt that uses a real Subaru part or a camber bolt that is lopsided. Then if you want, the smaller stock bolt can replace the larger top bolt, but then you have two places that can potentially slide instead of one, ruining your suspension setup.

The top and bottom holes are differently sized. If you have 16mm camber bolts (ala Whiteline) they go in the top, if you have the OEM "crash bolts" which are 14mm they go in the bottom. If you use "crash bolts" you can move the non-eccentric 14mm bolt from the bottom into the 16mm top hole to gain more negative camber, although I find this a risky proposition.

Yah, it definitely isn't clear, so to summarize:
Two bolts connect the knuckle to the strut. The lower bolt/hole is 14mm and the upper bolt/hole is 16mm. (No slop or adjustment) Not every camber bolt kit description specifies which size it is, but the instructions should tell you which hole to use, so that would let you know the size.

So you have three commom options:
1. Replace lower bolt with an eccentric/lobed 14mm bolt.
2. Replace upper bolt with an eccentric/lobed 16mm bolt.
3. Replace lower bolt with an eccentric/lobed 14mm bolt and move the original 14 mm "crash" bolt to the upper 16mm hole. This would give you extra play in the top bolt for adjustment. Slightly risky as you are relying on the friction and tension of the bolt to hold position rather than direct contact.

Personal experience is that it’s been fine for at least a season on track (~10 days). But of course if you have an off that could throw off the alignment. I think you run that risk regardless of its one or two camber bolts.

Also camber gained via at the hub is better than at the plates as the plates will gain more camber when the wheels turn.

Others have mentioned it, but I'd highly recommend a set of Michelin Pilot 4S's or even the Conti Extreme Contact Sport (looks identical to the Pilot 4S).

Both tires will give you plenty of slip angle to help with learning and car control as well as be good in the rain.

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I run the RE-71R exclusively, they are a fast and sticky tire that also has decent grip in the rain. I easily get 10+ track days out of a set in hot, Central Florida and for the most part, drive the car to and from the track days.

That being said tire pressures and temps need to be monitored between sessions and adjusted as needed. Have been running -2.1 camber in the front and -1.9 in the rear.

The load on the upper bolt is going to want to force it to slip towards more negative camber, as long as you're not adjusting camber with the upper bolt it'll never slip on you.

I'm running the SPC lobed bolt in the bottom hole, stock bottom bolt in the upper hole on KW V3's and it maxed out at -3.8*. It's dialed back to -3.2* by the bottom lobed bolt, and is actually SUPER easy to adjust on the alignment rack. Don't have to lift the car or anything. They've been on for about a year and zero signs of slippage.

I had Maxxis Victra VR1s on my car for a while and loved them. I only AutoX'd with them, but I know there are a few people on here that use them for HPDE and track days.

I have to say, what the RT615 K+ lack in outright grip compared to the hero tires like Rival S and RE-71R, they more than make up for in consistency, durability, and as such, great value as a track tire. It's not like you'll go wrong with them, that's for sure. I'm driving the piss outta mine (~1:24 laps at Thompson), and they look fantastic after 6 or 7 half track days...