First test drive. Feeling disappointed.
 

Cliff notes: How much can you feel the difference after adding a header/tune compared to stock? I know it is hard to describe, but please do your best.
:D

Long version: When I was 17-23, I had some fun cars. Modded, autoXed, etc. For the last 10 years I've been driving a Toyota Corolla, because it just made sense economically and I had a lot of other things keeping me busy in my life. I've had the itch for a while to get a new car. I've been lurking here for about 3 months and reading as much as I can. I know the car is "under-powered". I know about the torque dip. That didn't really concern me. I plan on putting about 10k worth of mods into the car, but would like to keep it NA and very daily driver friendly. (I drive about 25k miles every year).

I've been avoiding test-driving the BRZ because I still want to wait a few more months and didn't want to get excited and jump the gun. I had a few hours to kill the other day, so I went to a dealership and drove one...

While it was more comfortable than I expected, I was really surprised how unimpressed I was with the "punch" (torque) of the motor. My 5-spd Corolla feels nearly as powerful. I had kinda expected that after driving my Corolla for so long anything would be a big step up.

I'm not looking for a rocket-ship, but just want to have an idea of the difference the standard header/tune bolt ons will make. Particularly regarding the "punch"/torque "feel" of the engine. I've looked at all the dyno charts, but I'm wanting to hear personal experiences.

Thanks!

Just out of curiosity, how high did you rev it? it's got decent pull after 5k rpm but yeah, its never gonna knock your socks off. the header will definitely give it a more linear feel and a better midrange though which is big.

Is not a powerful car, it's a fast car and I am coming from a 300+ps MY04 STI...if you didn't rev it you may find it as slow as your Toyota although headers/tune make remarkable difference!

An other possible thought, a well mannered car may not "feel" as fast.
Also, unless you wind it up and shift quickly you will miss the joy of driving this little car.
It will never be fast but it sure is fun.

This is not a mid range torque car. If you want a semblance of excitement, you seriously have to drive with it at 5k+. A tune with headers helps a great deal, it's still not thrilling though, and you'll never feel a down low punch without FI. This isn't a car that is rewarding to drive all the time if you're expecting acceleration thrill. I had an 89 Miata with a 1.8L 95 motor swapped in, with a lightweight flywheel. It would definitely shit on my car that has a dyno tune and UEL headers.

Do not buy this car for status, or because you want to be a drift boi or part of a scene. These cars do look good, but you will be humiliated by anything else in acceleration. Corollas, Sentras, Miatas, Toyota Tacomas, civics, MOST ANYTHING. Having to shift twice before 60 doesn't help you win any drag races.

I know people will argue that the car is quick for what it is. I have no doubt that in the spirit of its legacy, the AE86, this car is excellent. Downhill touge racing, autocross, other LOW SPEED INERTIA CONTESTS. You will dominate in autocross if your driver mod is spot on. As I've said in another similar post, this car is AMAZING for those of us who like the feeling of RWD, with an up to date car that still feels 90s. It's a Miata, it's an E36, and most importantly, it's not a muscle car.

Be honest with yourself, and don't get one if it's not part of your driver's spirit. I'm not putting you down, but I want you to be full and well aware. A lot of people buy in, and a lot of people feel ridiculous because it's not what they imagined, and spend a ton of money trying to fill that void. They already know in their heart that a 350z probably would've been way cooler.

They're not fast in a straight line without serious motor mods. They're a fun, balanced, entry level sporty car. Avoid it, enjoy your corolla.

It sounds like you won’t be happy with this car unless you FI it. A low boost turbo setup can be done for about 4K and will give you the power I suspect you want. 7psi well tuned turbo should be reliable DD for years to come. Based on your post I don’t think any amount of NA mods will satisfy you. Go boost or get a different car. 370z or g37 may be what your looking for.

I ragged it out as hard as I could for a test drive. At 5k or so the engine definitely starts to come alive, but in stock form there just wasn't enough grunt in the 3-5k range.

I do think there was an element of not transmitting the true sensation of speed, despite its presence. Hard to define, but it just felt so "tame".

During spirited driving I would certainly run it the 5k+ range, but was expecting a little more of that "acceleration thrill" in the more "daily driving" RPM range.

I'm way past those things in my life. I do (or did and would enjoy again) owning a car that looks great, something I could take pride in. I haven't washed my Corolla in about 6 months. haha.

This is what I thought I was looking for...but maybe it isn't. :sigh:

No offense taken. I get what you're saying, but I would never buy a 350z, for a lot of reasons.

IMHO there are so few high-quality sports cars in the "affordable" range that I really was amped for the BRZ. I may have over-hyped it in my mind. Just feeling a little deflated.

See my semi cross-post: https://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=134004

I'm afraid you might be right. A low boost SC or TC had originally been a consideration. Just not sure I want to commit to the potential issues with aftermarket FI. Personally not a fan of Nissans, but I hear you.

From my reading it is possible to get about a 20% increase torque increase from headers/exhaust/tune in the "torque dip" and a 20+ WHP increase in the top end. I would think the ol' butt dyno would feel that, no?

Not quite in the same category as the BRZ, but if Volkswagens were more reliable the Golf R would probably be my 2nd choice.

If it means anything to you, I like my '13 FR-S more now than when I bought it nearly 6 years ago. It still puts a smile on my face every time I drive it, which is every day. Zero regrets.

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You can go from about 160-170whp to about 185-195whp(depending on gas) and eliminate the torque dip to have a solid smooth delivery of power with a good header/Tune. Add E85 will push you to about 200whp if you have access to it. And you will notice a solid improvement for sure. But enough to be happy with it. Probably not. NA bolt ons are just a tease. You get a taste but not a full meal.

Low boost with a good tune and careful install shouldn’t add too much extra wear and tear and maintenance. It is added stress, and another point of failure but lots of people running for years DD with no issues. Just don’t get greedy and keep upping the boost. SBD, works, jdl turbos if self installed with a DT or Moto east tune can be done for 4,000$-4,500$ may want a oil cooler and a catch can but not necessary with low boost on a DD. Not 100% necessary either but you may want new tires as well.

That was my understanding. I'm optimistic that this will satisfy me....but you're right. It may just make me crave more power.

We have good 93 octane around here. I don't really want to mess with E85.

Since reliability is something you've obviously considered, curious why you lean more towards TC vs SC? Of all the FI kits, I was most interested in the Jackson SC. Figured I could even get a larger pulley to reduce the boost for longevity's sake.

The 10k "wish list" looks something like:

OF Header
Invida over, mid, Q300
Takeda intake
Custom 93 octane tune
18x8 wheels w/ Michelin SuperSports
JDM under-aero
RCE Yellows with Bilstein B6s

First test drive. Feeling disappointed.
 

E85 in itself helps a ton with the dip. You say you don’t want to mess with it. Why not? If your availability is bad I get it. If you have good availability then all you need to do is flash a canned E85 tune and call it a day. A Tactrix cable to do the flash is only 170. If you have to switch between E85 and 93 due to bad availability then you will want a flex kit or just not run it at all. I’m lucky because one of the major gas stations in my city is putting E85 in all there locations and has already added E to all the locations I go to.

I was also let down by power delivery on this car but the seating position, steering feel, gear box, handling, RWD and LSD more than made up for the power band. E85 is all I’ve done to mine and its basically solved my power band disappointment. The more I drive my car the more in love I am.

Edit: I see you are in FL. Where in FL?

@imprezive Try the car with a stiffened transmission mount, whiteline insert (positive shift kit) or get the STi transmission mount. It will help deliver more of that "punch" you're looking for, as well as make the car more zippy and responsive in higher gears. Especially that on/off feel, you'll be able to roll out on power better. A highlight of the platform is engine responsiveness, but the stock OEM mount is squishy and the stock tires are limited. Upgrade these and wring 3rd gear up and down some mountain roads / twisties and it might change your mind on how the base platform delivers.

Though being aware Florida riders have more flat roads and are probably after that power to push for highway cruising, that makes sense. Turbo and supercharger kits seem to sell well down there.

Personally I have a SC and it’s a blast. I went full blown NA spending way too much money and was never satisfied so went SC mostly because I didn’t want to get rid of my ace header. I did drop 1.2sec off 0-60 and 1.7sec off 1/4mile with my NA build. Adding the SC dropped another 1.2sec 0-60 and 1.5sec 1/4th. Traction is now a big issue can’t launch at all anymore. Although I think 40-100 or 60-120 are better comparisons since traction is less of an issue and those are way faster now.

But the less boost you can run to make the most power will generally be more reliable. As well as the price is about 700$-1K$ cheaper. SC has parasitic loss so you need to stress the engine more to make the same power as a turbo essentially. It’s basically the equivalent of one making 240whp/280crank and the other making 240whp/300crank bcs you need that 20hp to spin the blower. 7psi turbo on 93 should be about 240whp, less of a low end torque hit compared to a sc which is when your at a high risk of bending a rod. So for price/hp and reliability i feel like its better. But it does have “less fun” driving characteristics vs a SC and they do run a lot hotter. And you do have boost surge but on a small turbo risk is small. JRSC is probably cheaper if you plan on tracking the car bcs of heat management. Less of an issue for DD.

I live in New Smyrna Beach, but drive all over FL for work. I just find 93 more consistently across FL and I'm not crazy about the reduced MPG with E85. If I was racing down canyons everyday that would be one thing, but if I'm driving 100 miles south down I95, I'd like to still get 30MPG.

That's a good idea that I hadn't thought about in that way. I changed out virtually every rubber mount in my 2.5RS and it did make everything feel more responsive/immediate/peppy.

Yeah, on/off ramps are the only real curves we get around here.

Go buy a Camaro or a Mustang.

If you're not going to go FI, you can get the punchy feel with these mods for less than $10k:
Header
Tune
E85
lightweight forged 17" wheels
Aluminum or carbon drive shaft
Shorter final drive gear (4.88+)
Lightweight brakes (i.e. Wilwood forged narrow superlites)
Trunk junk delete
Lightweight exhaust

The car will feel a lot peppier, like 0-60 in a little in 5 sec.

I loved mine when I test drove it. All the mods I have done just made me love it more. Do not get this car, if you have to mod it to like it, you'll never like it at all.

For all that money you'd be much better off getting a PD supercharger with a flex fuel tune.

I like it, but might need to modify it to LOVE it. I don't think that's necessarily a problem.

Everyone has their own preferences. I like the idea that with NA mods you're potentially increasing your MPG. While I believe you can go FI reliably on this platform, your definitely introducing more variables.

Back to the original question...how much of a difference can you "feel" with a header/tune?

You will definitely feel a difference. Correcting the torque curve is the most noticeable benefit.

Just my personal experience- I originally bought mine as a low cost train commute car that looked nice and was fun to drive. Instead of a Corolla, I thought why not this. So my expectations were low, and honestly I liked it but didn't love it from a performance perspective. It took me several months to really "get it", then I started loving the car. The overall combined experience for me is far beyond the sum of the parts as they say, but sometimes it takes time to realize it, so test drives never really so the car justice.

After that, started modding here and there. Billet shift knob, camber bolts, lowering springs, mudfler change, wheels/tires. The latter made a big difference, and graduated to better mods like headers and RCE T2 coils. A quality header and quality covers transform the car. Still not fast in a straight line, but not slow - maybe on par with an E36 M3 or close (power delivery is different). Not a huge investment, and not hugely fast, but quick enough and really fun/rewarding to drive compared to many other cars. It's the little things that set this car apart, when considering short/monitored test drives and magazine numbers, those little things are often missed. Personally I've never thought the car is too slow unless I'm trying to boot it at 80+ mph (which is rare). Majority is backroads, and has more than enough power to have fun (and get me in big trouble). :)

I think if you want one, you have to take a leap of faith in some regards.

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I did both except my exhaust is fully stock.

A header/tune will clean up the powerband and even out the motor in the mid range.

It won't pull hard where the dip is, but it does even out the character of the motor as it pulls through 3-5k RPM.
In stock form I notice the dip most pulling out of a low speed corner in second gear, especially if you are going up a incline. Post tune gets rid of the hesitation and feels like a shove that gets progressively more powerful with RPM.

Havent seen it mentioned but gearing makes a huge difference in these cars. So I don't know if you test drove a new or used car. 17'+ have better gearing which makes a big difference. If you are going older used I would put gearing in your budget.


And yes catless headers and tune are a must.


I wouldn't expect much more gains with air intakes, catback exhausts ect.


Some funds put towards to weight reduction are good for all sportscar categories. Just removing the spare/tools and a lightweight battery up front are good inexpensive easy mods.

I drove a 19' but this is actually a concern of mine. While gearing feels great in lower gears, I do a lot of my driving at odd hours on low traffic highways, so I spend a lot of time on cruise control between 80-85mph. I'd prefer not to be sitting at 3800 RPM for an hour straight.

How much a difference you "feel" is entirely personal, some people claim they can feel a major difference on mods XYZ but dynos, ETs, 0-60s etc show zero improvement, other peoples butt dynos are less sensitive and dont notice much of a different adding 20hp or taking .5sec off a 1/4th mile. I lean closer to the latter vs the former.

I would look at raw data to see the difference, and decide yourself if you think that's enough for yourself and or if you would "feel" a difference.

Full bolt ons, custom tune, 100lbs weight reduction, 5.56FD swap, and some aero got me 1.2sec off 0-60 and 1.7sec off 1/4mile on my AUTO 2017. only thing missing really was E85. Should see similar results with a MT maybe less from a FD swap though.

But Yes I felt a big noticeable difference for sure no question, going WOT in 1st or 2nd would toss you back in the seat and it still pulled hard to the top of 4th (114mph) fell on its face in 5th though. Just wasn't enough for me personally to consider it "Fast" but maybe to many others it would be.

I should add header/tune probably attributed to maybe 60% of that improvement.

You will feel the difference but it's not going to suddenly feel like the swell from a small turbo or anything.

- Stock: feel torque dip

- JDL catless uel header + 93 Oct + tune: Great top end but still feel torque dip. Works well for track.

- FT86SF catted header + 93 Oct + tune: Less top end, but torque dip is gone. Pulls linearly through torque dip.

- Stock header + e85 + tune: Very slight torque dip, but almost unnoticeable because the whole torque curve has been increased. You really have to be looking for it to feel it. Top end feels about on par with the JDL header.

If you're really concerned about the torque dip, I'd try the FT86SF catted header or e85 first and see if you're satisfied. If not, FI will take care of it.

Honestly, after I got my Edelbrock SC, my mpgs went up slightly. Cruising at just under 2500 rpm around 65mph I was getting over 30 mpg, close to 35.

On E85, my range/mpg went down about 30%, but E85 costs about 30% less too, so cost per mile is either the same or better on E85. It burns cleaner and generates more power, so I don't see any issues with it other than availability. If you get a flex fuel kit, then you can fill up on both gas and E85 at will, and even mix them.

I would say this is the problem. I don't think these cars fit your environment. My thrills are finding empty canyon roads and running the engine to redline, heel-toeing into the bends without loosing too much speed on corner entry and feeling the tires give a little slip.

I would also give the new Miata a chance, as it has a peppier engine and even less weight. If you are not happy with that then maybe this type of car just isn't for you. Check out the V6 Camaro, makes good power and has a great (albeit heavier) chassis. That might be up your alley.

That said, if you're still curious about feeling a car with header and tune I would find a local meet and get a ride a long. That's your best bet.

Only a clown buys a car and then adds $10k of mods.
Here is an idea. Buy a car that suits your needs.
This car is not for you. Check out Mustangs.

Dude, do NOT buy an 86 if you test drove it and left a bad taste in your mouth. Something else will excite you, go get that instead...

I have had my 2015 for coming up on 4 years now. I love it. I have had everything from a prerunner style truck to a 70 camaro back in high school. the 86 isn't fast but its such a fun car to drive. it gets plenty of looks and thumbs up.
i still love walking towards it and always look back after parking it.

i would love to put a 2j in it and call it a day but i very much enjoy the car in a non FI setup. get some good tires, a header/tune, and go spank some much "faster" cars on the canyon roads.

What a ridiculous statement, especially in a sub-forum dedicated specifically to modifying this car's powertrain.

Why is "go buy a Mustang" such a common response here when some expresses anything but adoration for every single aspect of the BRZ?

I'm not hating on the BRZ, quite the opposite. I like it so much that I'm still considering it even though it doesn't check one of my main boxes.

You may consider driving your present car for a few more months until the Supra comes out. It sounds like it would check all your boxes - :)


humfrz

dealership test drives are a joke if you are truly trying to measure out the car. you can't get the tires squealing and bang the rev limiter with a salesperson tagging along..

tbh this feels like another "i don't care about power/torque dip but i still gotta question the power" thread -.- get a mustang

...because everyone who has brought up power with the twins always makes it a big deal only to eventually get rid of it and chastise the rest of us for loving 130 wtq. You don't see a trillion threads on Mustang forums asking why they don't handle like the twins yet so many people want the twins to have Ecoboost torque levels of power!

Gotcha. I guess it is a bit of a sore subject around here. I don't want a Mustang. I appreciate a well balanced, exceptional handling car, not particularly fast car. I respect everyone who looks past the HP numbers and can appreciate what the twins bring to the table.

The handling is what drew me to my old 2.5RS. Maybe I didn't get to wring it out enough at the test drive. Maybe my expectations were a little too high. Maybe I'm not in the right physical location for this car. Maybe I'm not at a place in my life to get a pure drivers car right now. Idk...