2017 86 Vs. 2019 Civic Si Coupe
 

My wife and I now have two somewhat impractical family cars. We used to have two really impractical cars (mazda rx7 and mx5). I can now give a somewhat decent impression of how these two cars stack up.

Our 17 86 is the "Special Edition", we bought it because we love wild paint jobs and this one had an orange paint that was even nicer (in our opinion) than our old Hot Lava. We have had it for a year and a half at the time of this post and it has been a great car, even nicer than our old Hot Lava FR-S. Mostly things that we enjoy are the changes to the final drive ratio and the suspension setup. The old FR-S seemed like it was geared more to hit 60 "faster" and the suspension was a bit too harsh. Sure there's still a torque dip, but we don't care, it's a fun engine to run out to its redline and it has all the power we enjoy in a manner that we enjoy driving it. The LSD is great and being RWD makes it a very predictable car in the winter for us, we even bought some winter tires to make it more fun.

In comparison, the new 19 Si Coupe we just bought about a month ago is a different type of animal, though fun in it's own right. We got it in the somewhat horrid Yellow Tonic Pearl, a color that I believe that is only liked by us. We love it, very easy to find... anywhere. The engine and the power delivery are totally different, being a turbo'ed 1.5, most of its power is setup around 3k and it kind of gives up right at 6k. Almost the opposite of a torque dip, kind of a torque hump. While not everyone enjoys FWD, it is much more enjoyable with a LSD. The car kind of grabs through turns instead of being pushed like the 86, once again being a kind of opposite to the 86. There is also a totally different type of balance here, no more 50:50 distribution, all of your weight is over the front wheels.

So for both having 205hp, being around the same curb weight, and both having polarizing looks (especially in bright colors). They are both very unique, fun, and engaging cars.

The Honda does get better gas mileage though... No idea how it pulls of 40+ mpg on the highway, but it does. But as someone who once drove around an rx7 as a daily... who cares about gas mileage??

probably being a smaller displacement + turbo, and not driving in boost contributes to the higher mpgs

Yeah, I get that, just wasn't expecting it. It's good for my wife since she drives it to work everyday.

I'd still pick the 86 over the Si if I had to choose one.

its definitely how it works.

Low displacement engine + new technologies + modest driving (don't go heavy into boost) = great gas mileage.

Those Earth Dream motors are quite frugal. I had a Honda fit with the 1.5L N/A Earth Dreams motor, and I was getting high 30's/low 40's depending on how I drive.


But once you get that turbo working the MPG is going to nosedive.

I think that's why the FA20 boxer motor doesn't get great gas mileage. You don't really "cruise" at a low RPM on that motor, and all its power is high up so you're really working the engine a lot of the times. Plus boxers are inherently less fuel efficient to begin with than straight 4's as far as I know.

In your comparison you left out something important. That would be, how the cars look.

I feel like this was done intentionally :bellyroll::bellyroll::bellyroll:

I've been doing a lot of reading on the new Si recently. I think if I was in a position to get a new Si or a new BRZ, I'd go for the Si.




But I'm not, and I love my BRZ to death.

Oh, I just didn't want to be writing too much. But it's true, the Toyota 86 is much better looking in our opinion. The Honda isn't bad though, as a coupe. We didn't like the sedan very much, looks too large and seems too much like a family sedan. We really like the wrap around tail light and while polarizing, we find the overall funkiness of the Honda to be fun, especially as yellow.

One other thing that I didn't mention is their interiors. I would consider them equal but different. The seats in the Honda are surprisingly good! I still wish the 86 had a 60/40 split in the back so that we could put down half of the seat when my kid sits in the back.

I drove both before I got the frs. The 10th gen si is a nice car. Great handling. And the power band is nice for dd'ing. But is just me or does the si have a laggy throttle or dead spot? It made the car hard to rev match when I drove it. Also the engine is too quiet imo. Anyone who has driven an older vtec honda won't agree with the new engine, but man, the mpg is nice. Also turbo cause racecar lol. I definitely would consider an si and tuning it if I need a 4 door car in the future. Liked it more than the wrx honestly.

You can thank emission ratings and the turbo for the throttle lag.

Darn environment

Hey Xerexyz, how old is your child? I have a 7.5 yo who is 42" tall (yes, his parents were not blessed with exceptional height) and I'm just curious how doable/comfortable he will be back there on the occasion I need to haul him to practice, school, the store, the park, etc.

I am in the position to replace my 15yo (2 door) GTI with either the BRZ Limited PP OR a WRX Base/Premium.

Hands down, I want the BRZ. It is the closest thing to a Miata (which the wife says "No" to and it seems the closest thing to a motorcycle, which coincidentally, the wife also says "NO!!!" to despite me having one years ago.

The BRZ is that Miata/motorcycle engagement I want in a car that has 4 seats.

I also looked at the WRX Base/Premium and it seems to be a fine car. Easy to get in and out of with its four doors and higher seat height. Sure, it is faster and has AWD, but that does not automatically make it better, even though many would argue that point.

So, in your opinion, how doable is the BRZ with small children that only need a seat booster? Do you have any issues with ingress/egress into the back seat? Does your child "complain" about anything such as noise or can't see out of the window while riding in the back of the BRZ?

Thanks for you time on this. Cheers. :cheers:

I have 12 and 13 yo sons and they fit just fine and never complain. All they say is “dad do some drifting”. I also have a 2yo with rear facing seat that also fits back there. I’ve not had anyone back there with a booster though. My next door neighbor has a kid about the size of yours. I will throw a booster back there and have him jump in and get him to write up a review for you.

Thanks. :w00t:

We've moving him out of his Britax full back booster seat into a bottom cushion one (soon) as the full back is approaching the headliner of our CX-5 and his legs are getting longer. Weight wise, he's got a ways to go before maxing out the seat (just hit 40 lbs this summer).

The biggest issue toward/against the BRZ doesn't come from me, but from other members of the family (namely the wife). My kid will ride in whatever we have as he has little to no say. I just want him to be comfortable. The WRX seemed "boomy", but I wasn't riding in the back.

When he does ride with me, I've got to get him in the back. I know the BRZ is not as easy as my GTI. The GTI has a one lever lift, move seat forward, move seat back and everything is back to where it was. The BRZ's driver seat, to my knowledge, does not return the the set position when you pull the cloth strap to move the seat. (I am wrong on this???)

When I test drive cars, I usually bring him with me or at least try to and move his seat into the test drive car. WRX and Crosstrek were easy to get him back there. (He's partial to the Sunshine Orange Crosstrek).

So far, I've only driven the BRZ by myself, no other passengers, so I am biased. Plus, that is how the BRZ will be used 350-360 days out the year.

I'm sure if all three of us take the BRZ for a test drive, the car will lose some of its flair. Plus I can see the wife now...smiling with that look, and teeth clenched. (In 2004, she voted down a VW R32 just because of the [body hugging] seats).

Again, thanks for your time. :thumbsup:

I just LOVE the RWD with MT drive experience in FR-S more than a FWD car like the Honda. The Twins compare only to the Mazda compared to ANY other car it's weight/price/handling and power.


I did drive a Chrysler 300S and it was a huge vague and plush ride and after 2 months with that rental this summer, the Twin felt very cheap and weak lol. Took me a couple rides to remember why I love the Twins so much :)

Damn nice

You can cancel this test. A BRZ didn't make it into the garage; real world needs vs me, me, me wants. Instead, a WRX took its place, so a back seat booster seat test is not needed.

Again, I appreciate the efforts.

:burnrubber:

Having come from a healthy modded 2017 WRX, I took a stock GT86 for a test drive and had equal or more fun in the 86. Most of my fun happens between 30 and 50mph. Any faster and I have to concentrate more, and it's harder to recover from sudden environment changes at faster speeds. As long as it has a clutch pedal.

brz / civic si
 

I have been thinking about trading by BRZ in for a newer Si, i feel like it will be kinda a lateral trade where i gain usable back seats, trunk space, gas mileage, maybe reliablilty but not sure about that with the new earth dreams stuff, and improve winter reliability , but lose looks for sure, the road feel/fun factor, handling, and rawness of the BRZ. Its a tough call, i have been dragging my feet for awhile lol To me the Si is a better daily that is sporty, and the BRZ is a sportscar that can be a daily. If i had more time to race, or go with a 2nd car i would keep it for sure, decisions decisions. lol

Forget the SI if you’re going wrong wheel drive might as well go for the Veloster N WITH performance package. Around same price and better looking than SI and R

Until you realize that the Veloster looks different from the right than it does from the left...

Let me know how you figured out how to look at both sides of the car at the same time. Otherwise, who cares. It's better than the Si, which is ugly from every angle.

By sitting in it, or looking through a window, or walking around it.

Also look at the current gen GTIs. Should be decent discounts to be had with the next gen right around th corner.

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Agreed, must have 3 pedals...

Well, 7 months on and the WRX is doing ok, I guess. I think the conti DWS-06 tires I put on it for winter use have negatively affected the car in the steering vibration and road noise departments. Temps in the teens and snow covered roads in SW OH prompted the switch off of summer rubber.

I still would like to have been in a BRZ, but at the end of 2019, pickings were slim and I did NOT want the silver BRZ on the dealer lot. Plus, the wife persisted in having a more usable, easily accessible back seat on the occasional occasions I have to transport our 8 yo (in a booster) somewhere like school or out shopping during "mommy time".

The WRX is definitely not a BRZ and although the WRX has many positives, it lacks a lot of the BRZs charms (like communication and oneness with the driver). I think the stereo would still sound like crap, but the car would be more fun to drive and possibly not as big of a concern, plus 7400 redline...

The seat in the WRX feels too high and I really haven't found a "perfect" seating position, even after 7 months. Seat height and limited adjustments "(base model) don't favor those who are slightly less than "normal" inseam sizes.

re civic si
 

I forgot about this thread, i ended up keeping my BRZ, it might not be as practical as some other options but in the end it was hard for me to get rid of, i just love how it drives and handles, i did like the torque of some of the cars i test drove like the Si GTI WRX etc. but just liked the BRZ too much, and now that i got a header and going to be doing a tune.....:D

I ran 17" steel rims in winter, 18" summers. When it comes time to replace your stock summers, I went with Pilot Sport 4S's. They had a little more sidewall feel (sort of like driving on marshmallows, but not nearly like winter tires on dry pavement), but man they're confidence inspiring!

I recently replaced my 2010 civic SI with a 2017 BRZ limited. To say that you can't have fun in a FWD car is plain wrong. It's all about your own personal preference/situational needs. There are plenty of fun/capable FWD cars out there these days that offers wayyyyy more as an overall package to the 86. The SI is one of those cars. Sure, the 86 is a better dedicated circuit car but for a single "do it all" car, the SI offers wayyyyy more. My SI was the last gen of the high revving K20 screamer. From a drivetrain perspective, its lightyears ahead of the twins. The car comfortably seated 4 - 5 people, wasn't too bad on gas, dead solid reliable and handled EVERYTHING i threw at it with ease. Picking/dropping off the kids, numerous road/ski trips where my wife decided to pack the entire house, track days, groceries.....the list goes on and on. The car does feel a bit go kartish because of the quick steering. And with a mechanical torsen LSD (which I believe the newer SI have as well), the car just pulls itself out of the corners.


In the end, both cars, twins and SI, are geared towards different crowds. Both can provide a very enjoyable driving experience, you just have to decide what is important to your lifestyle. I was lucky enough to have a 2nd/more practical car in the house to do the heavy lifting and as my kids gets older, are capable of climbing into the back seats hence I replaced it with a BRZ. But my SI provided me with 6 years of reliable, usable and very fun driving experience. Its one of the best cars i have owned i wouldn't hesitate to get another in the future if my life situation warrants one.

Ain't that the truth. The 86 is fun to let the tail out in but it'll never win any speed records doing it. If I had to take a fast drive down a loose surface I'd be doing it with 130HP through the front wheels in the haul-it-all Matrix.

The SI never really appealed to me over twins. I ended up just buying a basic Corolla hatch for some fun FWD grocery do it all car/wifes car. FRS is my daily to work/weekend fun car. I have struck a delicate balance and that balance does not include the SI. Which just isn't fun enough and not practical enough, too middle of the road for me.

I had a WRX STI sedan for moving around the whole family, 2 adults, 3 kids, BUT, now they have their own cars so I got a 86.

If you need to put people in the back for more than 15 minutes, get the WRX.

The WRX and the Civic looks like any old Kia or Hyundai, the twins, well they just look sweet.

Do you need a grocery getter that comfortably fits 4-5 humans with legs? If yes get WRX.

If you only need a sweet little cheap RWD sports coupe, that fits 2 adults and 2 very small kids, get one of the twins.

I haven't driven the WRX, but had the Si for 4 days (drove a lot in those 4 days though) and it struck me as somewhere between my mk5 GTI and a Toyota 86 (which I had for a week). If you don't need a ton of cargo space, a quiet highway ride (Si is still loads more quiet than any Subaru I've been in and not louder than a 3rd gen Mazda 3), or an automatic gearbox, the Si is a better car. If I had to get a brand-new automobile and it couldn't be the BRZ or the Civic Type R, then it'd be a Si sedan.

Don't forget the Hyundai Veloster N. 2021 addresses the cheap seats and adds a DCT as options. I just wish the type R sounded like the N. I just love how the N sounds for a turbo 4 which is hard to make sound good

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The JCW Mini does some of the same stuff with sound.

The biggest flaw for me for the Civic Type R is there's no custom driving mode...it'd be a simple software feature. The dampers are set up beautifully in comfort mode, but steering and throttle response is very meh.

Exhaust can be taken care of very easily by the aftermarket guys.

Maybe I'm young, but I don't much care for comfort modes suppleness. It feels very(too) bouncy to me. Where it is nice though is when the road conditions are just that bad and bumpy.

There's lots of fun cars, but the thing I kept coming back to with the BRZ/86 is just how low to the ground you sit and the view over hood - nothing but two little fender bumps and open road. You cant get that with many cars like the Civics, WRX, Camaros, etc.

The only cars I've been in that had that same feel was a friend's old Porsche 914, another friend's Fiero, and my old MKI MR2. The 914 and Fiero had seats bolted flat to the floor - your feet went straight out in front of you. The MR2 sat up a little higher, but not much. They were all such a thrill to drive and ride in because of that.

The 86/BRZ platform is a really good one if you know what you like and if you like to drive. I actually owned an FK8 CTR for awhile, admittedly never crazy about the styling it was a great car to drive. Honda did a good job, but I still felt the comprises, I have a daily for work and an SUV for a family hauler so a 4 door hatch didn't make sense. I can see why so many would use it as their primary car but it for me it didn't make sense. Strangely I never found myself wanting to go for a drive, and when I did you can only use so much of the power responsibly. Side note I did get pulled over in it but that's another story for another day. Anyway when I owned by BRZ and my FRS prior I would find any reason under the sun to get behind the wheel because of the way this car feels to drive. Long story short...well I guess not really lol I parted ways with the CTR and am still awaiting my 2020 Hakone 86, hopefully COVID doesn't ruin that, back up plan is a BRZ ts. 86/BRZ for the win for a fun car, SI if it will be your only car for commuting and what not.

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Oh and RWD all the way!

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Had a 2018 si coupe for two years before it got flooded about two months ago. I upgraded bbk with lightweight rotor, lighter wheels (10lb lighter than stock), intercooler, intake exhaust, rmm Lowering springs control arms and a tune. It pulls hard for a 1.5t when turbo kicks in, otherwise quite sluggish in low rpm. And it handles surprisingly well especially with summer tires. Got my 2020brz about 3 weeks ago and I like it so far, more than the si for the most part. First I like the look of the brz better, second is I like how responsive the engine is. It feels more lively in lower rpm but I felt the si pulls a lot harder at higher rpm with boost. I never liked the clutch in the si, the rev drops very slow even with a tune that deletes the rev hang. I like how fast the rev drop in the brz, however, the rev drops in the brz are not consistent, it hangs and rev drops slowly when I eased into the gas but no rev hang when I’m harder on the gas pedal. Hopefully a tune will fix the inconsistency. Also, the brz feels so much lighter than the si despite the fact that it’s about 80-100 lbs in weight difference in stock form; with the upgrade I had with the si it should be around 2800lb. The ride between the two are very similar, it’s firm but not uncomfortable at all. Si has a more quiet cabin and the sound system is way better than the brz. I always like the brz because of the look, and I always wanted the wrx, I never considered getting an si before test driving one and it surprised me. For the price, the si is a bargain, I got mine for 24k otd, it gets 40mpg on the highway and it’s mod friendly. Price of the wrx has rocketed compared to the last gen. And the price of the brz was up there so getting an si was a smarter move financially imo, plus I worried abt rwd during snow season. I’ll Put some nice snow tires on it and see how it does this winter.