Do You Purposefully Avoid Rank in Place of Employment
 

Let me explain, since misleading title is likely misleading.

I work at a hospital. I do IT support, so I work with everyone- patient to CEO. Most of my co-workers identify doctors as "doctor" rather than using their name. For instance rather than "Yes, of course Ellis" it'd be "Yes, of course doctor".

I almost make it my mission statement to be sure I treat everyone as an equal to myself. This may seem like common sense, but believe me, in a role as social as IT support, there is a lot of implicit and explicit bias on both ends.
The doctors look down on IT staff, the IT staff think doctors are thankless airheads. The environmental services staff (trash and floor duty) staff think IT staff are genius, and IT staff think they are illiterate 3rd world sleeze. IT staffing are afraid to break rank and directly address or speak to other IT department managers or chairs, etc.

I am pleasant, and offer the same level of encouragement through whatever trouble the person I'm helping is experiencing. I seem to be unique in my department, because I don't mind directly approaching my department chair if I have a question. I refer to doctors by their given name, I don't sigh before answering a page from the kitchen staff or talk about how dumb a patient was after helping them with my peers.

Flattening out this nonsense makes my job way easier, more fun, and rewarding. My teammates think I'm commiting career suicide by not treating doctors or my management as lords. I've never been chastised by anyone for "not being respectful". I also refuse to be treated like a dog, so of course I know I'm being rebellious.

Anyway, enough word vomit; what are your thoughts? Do you have a tendency to avoid employment rank when working with people? Do you fear speaking out of turn to your manager and being shit-canned, or do you talk to them as you would your neighbor or co-workers? I certainly have no plans to change, I'm just curious. Also, I need to add this- I am in no way disrespectful, I just ignore social hierarchy.

@DarkPira7e, I work in a similar environment (IT Director in a hospital system including ambulatory clinics), and have worked in other environments with similar personnel (I've been in the clinical lab business, as well as the airline business).

I'm also a bit old-school, probably because I'm older.

Calling someone that has earned the degree Doctor as "Doctor" so and so, is just polite, it isn't treating them as gods. I also refer to persons more senior than me (either in age (although I've about outrun that one, or rank) by Mr. or Ms. unless they tell me otherwise. I would do the same with Military rank or other persons with official titles (Doctor is an official title, just like Major or President).

I also don't just call them Doctor, but I use their name. So it's Doctor Kildare, not Doc or Doctor, just like I wouldn't call you "Hey Bud" instead of your name if I knew you.

No, it's probably not career suicide, but you will eventually run into someone that feels their hard work, money and time they put into earning the title (and they did earn it) earns them the right to insist you call them by it.

Like it or not, to some people if you "ignore social hierarchy" you are being disrespectful.

That is entirely different conversation than "being treated like a dog". I've corrected more than one person "of rank" in my career or refused to talk to them until they stopped ranting at me.

Thank you for the perspective, I appreciate the time you've taken with your response. I do agree that it is a nice gesture above all else, I suppose just that I've noticed the people who lay the lowest are walked on by doctors much more frequently. This may be culture at my hospital more than anything else- a lot of the doctors here do seem to treat us as dogs and are disrespectful, rude, and belittling. I find that the more I work with them as an individual rather than their title, the less I get talked down to. I understand completely where you're coming from - it really may be that I'm young still and don't call people "Mr. Deschamps" because I find it awkward. :word:

This ^


And too add to it. There is also a time and place where "Rank" is indeed important in performing a job. Sometimes if people in "authority" get too familiar with those that work for/with them things can get awkward fast. I am a senior manager but my job means I interact with the production workers all the time. We joke around and get along fine but then when something goes wrong and I have to ream them out they may not take things as seriously as they should. Yes there are different "ranks" in society and unfortunately they exist for valid reasons. If the lines get blurred too much then things can fall apart fast.

Ironically enough this has been my personal experience with IT people since the trade first appeared! I may just have been very unlucky in my exposure to them but everyplace I have ever worked having to contact and deal with IT was something I have avoided at all costs. They are worse than engineers to deal with.

Sorry, you may have posted something useful, but I couldn't be bothered to read the musings of a peasant.

Every hospital (and profession) has their share of those types. Those are the ones I don't tolerate very long. There are always the few no one wants to deal with, or it takes a special kind of tact to get your point across. I still show them the "title respect" they deserve but I also explain to them that they will not treat me (or my employees) that way.

It helps that I have the ability to remain perfectly calm in these types of situations which in itself often sends the other person into a stomping off tirade and I just smile and say "Let me know when you are ready for me to help" as I walk off.

How very IT of you!

They are often on the fast track for CEO!

I think one of the reasons I've been relatively successful in the IT field is because I have some level of social skills. It may be because I started off in a totally different direction (my undergraduate degree is Philosophy, with a Math Minor) and stumbled into IT>

There are two types of IT folks, those that you lock in a room, shove pizza under the door, and let them solve problems, and the ones you let actually talk to people while they are solving problems.

IT Master Race Rules!! ugh...I mean... now @DarPir7e that's no way to treat @Tcoat...

Yep. All but the first of the IT guys (the guy that upgraded my system for a 386 to a spectacular 486) I ever worked with had done nothing else. I am convinced that they have a mandatory course in Basic Rudeness Belittling and Expressing Self Importance 101.

My previous job was in healthcare IT. I called doctors "Dr. <Last Name>" usually, just because that was their proper title, just as I would use "Mr." or "Ms." to refer to anyone whose title I didn't know, regardless of their "rank". I wouldn't say I "avoid" rank, but I also wouldn't say that I put much stock in it.

Disclaimer: the following statement could be seen as controversial and I am not interested in having an ideological debate about it.

I believe that meritocracy is an illusion. Yes, working harder generally gets you further, but its not anywhere near as simple as that. I've met helpdesk guys that were way more talented than me who never got promoted and I've met IT directors/VPs/CIOs/etc. who make >$100K a year that can't tell ethernet from USB. I don't immediately assume someone is competent just because they're "above" me in rank. Same goes for people below me. So, without knowing them personally, I don't look up to people above me and I don't look down to people below me.

I don't really think those two things are mutually exclusive. While I certainly don't fear getting fired for "speaking out of turn", I also don't really speak out of turn. If I know what I'm talking about and believe I can add value to the discussion, I'll respectfully and professionally say what's on my mind regardless of the rank of the person I'm talking to.

Also in IT here. I work the exactly the same way as you. I'm a software developer for a wholesale distribution company. We write EVERYTHING in house so I literally deal with everyone in the company including the guys in the warehouse that are driving forklifts. These guys may not make a ton of money but they are super nice people and I have no problem hanging out back there shooting the shit with them. Because of this it's WAY easier to work with them to smash bugs. I can get much more detail out of them than "it just doesn't work". I've always been bugged by the whole class structure crap. I don't work with doctors at my job but I never refer to doctors I know personally as doctor. My brother in law is a doctor and I've asked him if it bothers him when people don't call him doctor and he said no but knows plenty of doctors that are bothered by it. My brother in law is a very down to earth guy that wasn't raised with a family with lots of money. His dad is actually a mechanic. So the class structure crap isn't his thing either. You would have no clue he was a doctor until you ask him a question about the medical field and then he switches into doctor mode where he rattles off a bunch of gibberish like he is talking to another doctor friend. Hahaha

Not at all controversial and exactly how things should be done. Either "above" or "below" respect is earned not demanded. In the hospital case it can not function properly without the head of surgery or the guy that dumps the trash cans.


Again you nailed it. If you are responded to a dipshit in a dipshit manner than you are no better than they are and dipshittery rules.

In my experience (and I've worked at ....at least 5 hospitals in my 3.5 year career so far lol) it all depends on the workplace. I work in Pathology so obviously we have technicians, technologists and pathologists, the latter being doctors. I myself am a Pathologist Assistant, so I do their dirty work, dissection of surgical specimens and such, and so work with them quite closely. I always address them professionally, using title (Dr.) and last name, but one thing I've noticed while jumping from hospital to hospital is that in a more busy environment, where pathologists will be mixing with PAs and residents and surgeons, everyone calls each other by their first names. It never bothered me, as I am treated with respect and they defer to my expertise when it comes to hands on work but I do find myself thinking about it at times but meh... what are you gonna do.

Well, the disclaimer was just about my opinion on meritocracy. Some people seem to be really invested in the idea of "you can do anything as long as you work hard enough at it" and don't like when people suggest that might not be true. Its gets to be a political discussion real quick and outside of just not being in the mood to argue about that, its also a no-no on this forum lol.

Totally agree. In the case of the trash can guy, at my old job he would come by every morning and empty every trashcan at every desk. There were a LOT of desks. So I would always pull out the bag from my trashcan and tie it up before he got to me, then when he got to me I'd just hand him the bag to put in his big wheeled can, take the new bag from him, and put it in the can myself. I get that its his job to take all the trash and clean and all that, and maybe I just tend to overthink things, but I just felt like such an asshole if I just let him 100% clean up after me while I sat there and watched.

Almost 30 years ago I started my career in environmental health and safety as the trash can guy. Many did the same as you. They were balanced by the douches that would put full cups of coffee in the can though. You have any idea the mess that can make?

omg same here, it bothers me so much. Although I do realize how ironic it is that me being bothered by it is more demeaning to him than if I wasn't.

That's nothing! We put body parts and leaking old blood and colon juices

Those came later in the safety part.

I think it depends on WHY you're bothered by it lol. If you're bothered because you think the job itself is demeaning and dont like seeing someone being demeaned so you help out, then yeah that could be seen as even more demeaning. But if you're just uncomfortable because watching someone else clean up your mess makes you feel like a selfish asshole who cant even take 30 seconds to help out, then I don't think that's more demeaning to him lol.

I always try to make stuff easier for my servers at restaurants for the same reason. Yes, its their job to clear the table, but if I don't stack up the menus nicely so they can easily just take the stack after they take our order, or if I don't stack the plates and put all trash/silverware on top when we're done, I feel like I'm just being a lazy jerk who wants everything done for him.

yeah this is why. I also clean up as much as I can when I'm out at restaurants, stack plates together and scrape the leftovers onto the top plate. I also for some reason fold the napkins even though that doesn't matter lol. I guess it just looks neater. I am very bothered by people leaving trays of their garbage in cafeterias. I don't know how they get up and go. What went wrong and at what point in their lives for them to think it's okay to do that. Boggles the mind

I do this as well. For me I think it comes from having been a busboy at one point in my life. I can't not do it, it bothers the crap out of me.

I do this every single time. I even had a server yell at me for it once. Who knew that stacking the plates actually made her job harder? I guess they develop a technique and deviations from that mess with them. I still do it though.

I think for me it comes from being born and raised in former soviet russia in a fairly strict middle eastern-ish family. Communism and middle east don't mess around, you gotta shape up quick. Otherwise you get beaten lol

I wanted to point out that with our facilities staffing, I take time to say hi to them and engage in conversation. I work in the evening so there's more time for me to talk to them. The guy that comes into my office every night doesn't talk to anyone but me, he's a really nice guy and has helped me get to my car one night when there was 2 feet of unplowed snow. He radioed to the other guy to grab the mini plow and plowed a little pathway for me. It kills me to think that people among my midst work so hard to lay rose petals at the feet of a radiologist who yells at them, but ignore the person who works hard to clean up after all of us.

I also wanted to comment that I do understand why addressing people by title can be important. If they ask me to I will, but I don't do it by default. I'm beginning to think maybe it's because I'm just rebellious and want people to know I value them for the work they do, not the title they hold. Maybe the way I show that is backwards??!

I believe one reason of the rudeness of the IT people is in the way they were educated. They have been told that IT will be the profession of the future, but they have not been told that the majority of IT will just serve other professions. For example an IT guy will fix another person's computer in a company, but this is not how the company will make money. It is basically support and in most situations it is either boring or it is not paid enough. So, these people realized this when they went to work and they were left in a kind of trap situation. It is not always easy going back to educate yourself and choose a different major and there aren't too many positions focusing entirely on IT.

In Soviet Russia table clears you.


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I basically do the same thing as you, just in reverse as you mention. I tend to be more formal until the person tells me otherwise regardless of their level.

Perfect example, is the custodian staff here. When someone new joins I introduce myself using my first name and welcome them aboard. That is my "permission" for them to call me by my first name. I call them by whatever they introduce themselves as. If the custodian introduces himself as "Mr. Jones" that's what I'm going to call him.

Same with Doctors. There is one (actually a hospital administrator) that always introduces herself by her first name. I therefore know it is perfectly acceptable to call her by that, and I do in individual conversations or in private. I still refer to her as Dr. Lastname in more formal settings though.

Our former Chief Medical Officer on the other hand was ex-military, and one of those overachievers that was also a lawyer as well as a physician, and a gunsmith in his spare time. It would likely have been a firing offense on the spot to have called him anything but Dr.

Same can apply to any of the "service" departments such as me or HR. We just have to understand that what we do is indeed helping the company make money. A salesguy that can't get emails is costing money just as much as a broken down piece of equipment. It just isn't as in your face as some things.


I have the unpleasant task of dealing with two radically opposing priorities. My first priority is to prevent injuries or environmental impact. My second is to protect the company from excessive costs and impact to production. This means that at any given time one group or the other is pissed about something.

Also, I've never met a rude IT person but I am in Canada and everyone is polite.

I am in Canada as well. The IT guy at my current employer got fired for it he was so bad. We had a party when he was gone. Two years later his replacement is still dealing with issues he caused. New guy is only marginally better though.

bad as in rude or no idea what he was doing?

or both?

One of the most totally obnoxious people I have met in my life. Also lazy as hell and getting him to do anything was a battle. Was fired for attitude though not the lazy part. He knew what he was doing when you could actually get him to do it. Most of us just fixed each other's problems instead of having to deal with him.

I see. Good thing they're not unionized then haha. Our IT people are notorious for making things worse. I mean they do very complex stuff for us, linking programs and laboratory information systems, but I remember one time we called them cause of something so trivial, it was like a 2-minute fix. The fix ended up causing such a huge problem that the system was down for the next 2 days while they figured out what went wrong.

This thread makes me wonder how many of us do IT for a living.

As a 40+ year IT guy,,, dam near spit my coffee out. Well done sir!


As to addressing your original question,,, they only let me talk to other IT people.

A shitload. Those that are not in IT are mostly in at least some other tech type field or school for them. We also have a oddly large number of serving or prior military when looking at such a small population.


There were a couple of threads but they have pretty much died out.

Yes that is true. A sales guy that can't get emails is costing money, but at the end of the day the sales guy will get the bonus and the recognition.

Anyway, I guess bad professionals can exist in every profession.

WAIT! Are you the guy that swapped my 386 for the 486?


Or were you more into laptops?


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