Occasional long crank
 

O.P.
Hi guys Ive got a small issue that is frustrating me on my 2012 Toyota GT 86 Manual Transmission.

When I start the car, if I do not turn the key to on and wait to hear the fuel pump prime, the car will take 3-5 seconds of cranking before turning over.

If I turn the key to on and wait to hear the fuel pump prime before cranking, 90% of the time it turns over fine in like half a second of cranking but even with priming the fuel pump sometimes I get the occasional long crank (although not as long) of about 2 seconds.

Ive checked the batteries / air filter as those are the most accessible parts.

Im thinking it has something to do with fuel pressure / fuel filter maybe ? However, I do not have any other issues with the car (stalling / rough idling / low acceleration) that usually comes with a clogged filter / low fuel pressure. Once it starts it runs perfectly fine and I have even run an OBD diagnostic scanner and nothing shows up. Sensors etc. all working fine with PASS on various tests. No CEL/MIL litted on dash

Before I go spending money on getting parts replaced Id like to try and narrow down the problem area though. Any thoughts ?

considering year of vehicle it could be related to this TSB from 2013

https://subaru.oemdtc.com/TSB/11-130-13R.pdf

Hello jaseow and welcome to the gang - :clap:

Question: How old is your battery? If you make a lot of short trips, your battery may not be fully charged. My 2013 was getting slow to start till I put a charge on the battery, now it spins right up. You may wish to check your battery to make sure it's carrying a full charge.


humfrz

Thanks. The battery was the first thing I checked at the local shop that does free battery inspections / test.

Tests shows up fine and I saw the voltmeter show a 12.6v reading as he was doing the testing

Considering the car is out of warranty and it doesnt specifically cover the toyota 86 what are the chances I can get the local dealer to do the extra work for this particular TSB

It's very common for cars to need the fuel pump to prime before starting, I don't think you're experiencing anything out of the ordinary.

If thats ordinary it means every owner on this forum HAS to prime their fuel pump before starting their cars or they get a extended crank too? I have a few friends with BRZ’s / 86 (and I 2 other vehicles) who can turn the key in one swift motion to start their car straight away like any other modern vehicle without having to turn the key to ON and waiting a few seconds while the fuel pump primes


Its not a huge inconvenience or anything but it just annoys me as it makes me feel like the car working perfect.

Well, my 2013 FR-S seems to start up within a few revolutions whether I hesitate or not.

I reckon as long as it starts, you really shouldn't be annoyed.

Being annoyed was when the engine kicked the crank back and knocked you off your feet. I learned the hard way, that once you set the crank and jump up and then down on it - JUMP BACK! - :eyebulge:


humfrz

Sometimes she is ready to go with a short crank, sometimes a long crank. Wait, are we talking women or cars?

Sounds to me like a dying battery.
Mine was taking longer to start every week, eventually I had to jumpstart every other week till I just bought a new one.
But that was just my case.

Batteries need to be checked under load. It shouldn't drop below 10v under load for 30 sec and should return to about the same voltage. Ideally you use a load tester but you can have someone crank the car while it is being checked with a volt meter in a pinch.

:slap: this is a car forum, stay focused - :sigh:


humfrz

staying focused is against the rules. I swear I read that somewhere.

Are their cars warm or cold when they show you this?

Yes every morning my car will start like you describe, it's been that way the whole time I've owned it, 6 years 77k miles.
The Nissan pickup truck I had before operated exactly the same, the family Honda does the same as well.

You need to test how the fuel system is holding pressure over night. I don't know specifically with this car, @Ultramaroon is usually the go-to tech guy here. But most cars have a check valve so fuel won't run back and the engine will keep fuel pressure so when you turn the key, you got fuel pressure right away if that check valve starts to leak in an older car, you get this long crank and the work around is to do what you are doing. Or replace the check valve.

Also could be a leaky injector overnight flooding a cylinder even though the symptoms are a little different.

Meh, It's only supposed to hold pressure for 10 minutes. I started to go there last night until I saw the test spec.


I've always waited for my fuel pump to prime before cranking, so... :iono:

I dont think it is a fuel pressure leak.

Yesterday I tried starting the car (without letting fuel pump prime) after not having driven it for 2 days and it started up fine without extended crank even. Drove to a few different places for groceries / errands and the shut off the engine at 3 different locations and started it up without priming fuel pump (one swift key turn motion) without any extended cranks.

I then drove about 30 mins to the city for an appointment that lasted about 30 mins and when I went back to start the car I had the dreaded 5 seconds crank time again. Went out for dinner and car started no issues again for the drive home.

Maybe I should start counting the number of times I have no issue cranking between the 1 time it has an extended crank as it seems to follow a pattern. E.g cranks and starts fine 7 times then extended crank on eighth start up. Followed by 7 more normal start ups before another extended crank time

I reckon if it was a fuel pressure leak it would have had the extended crank the first time after not having been driven for 2 days rather then after a whole afternoon of driving around to different places?

I don't think it's fuel pressure. Does it seem to struggle when the engine is warm but not at full temp? Are you able to log with your OBD tools?

Hard to say. Sometimes even after driving for a while and the system is warm it starts no problem. No way for me to consistently reproduce the long crank. Makes identifying the problem that much more difficult

Yea I have an obd2 scan device but I have no idea what half of the stuff is haha.

I did do one of those tests and it showed everything as OK and there were no error codes

I hear you. Stuff's really daunting. Unfortunately, this is one of those in-between situations - not quite right but not bad enough to throw codes. Tough enough to troubleshoot in person. Might get lucky. Someone might read this and say "Oh, yeah. I had exactly the same problem. Ended up being a such-and-such."

OK, let's go back to the source (the battery).

Is it the original battery?

Have you had it "load tested", as suggested up above?

If your battery is the original battery, it may be at the end of its useful life.

Maybe a new battery is in order?


humfrz

Im not the original owner of the car so I cant say when the battery was last changed but it is definitely not the original battery. One of the errands I was running yesterday was to head to the autoshop. I was ready to buy a new battery as suggested in the earlier posts but the guy did a baterry and load test for me and told me to save the money as the battery was perfectly fine.


Unfortunately this issue could be caused by so many different components I dont really want to throw money at it replacing parts if I can help it. I was going to change the fuel pump / fuel pressure regulator next but it seems like it might not be a fuel pressure issue.

Ive even had the engine taken apart and put back together with the recent recalls for the valve spring and the issue still persists. Not sure where to go from here or to just live with the slight issue and deal with an occasional long crank.

I even called up the local dealer and they wanted me to bring it in for a diagnostic and was looking to charge $140 for it and on enquiring further he said they would “plug in their computer into the ECU to get more information”. When I told him I had an obd2 scanner he said “our computer is much more advanced”. Im not sure how much more advanced it is and if Im willing to potentially throw away $140 for them to do a scan on an issue that probably isnt major enough to flag anything on their diagnostic test

To be honest a long crank would just eat at me every time I started the car. They are telling the truth on the diagnostic computer, their are ones that go a lot deeper into it then just reading codes. I would pay the 140 or wait for a sale on service and get it looked at. They may find it's something simple and fix it without parts even. (loose connection) If you are worried about cost look for a import auto service business near you, they will likely charge less for correcting the same issue.

I think humfrz is on the right track if you have a 2013 year FR-S on the original battery then it is nearing end of life. They test the battery for free at some local auto part stores near me. Might give that a try.

Thats exactly how I feel. Not major issue but im obsessing over it and its eating me

Already did the battery check and load test at 2 different places and both said battery was good

Well, jaseow, I reckon you have two viable choices.

Live with it and try not to worry about it or take it in and get a diagnostic test done.

Back in the day, with cars with carburetors, one would pull the choke out a ways, pump the gas pedal a few times then crank on it. The old cars may take a few revolutions before they fired, depending on how well you read the weather conditions and set the choke appropriately and pumped the gas the right amount of times.

However, today, with many of the younger folks, they expect instant gratification (engine starting) right away and consistently.

Now, that reminds me, it's time for me to take a swig of my Milk of Magnesia.


:D


humfrz

I'd say battery. I just replaced the one in my late 2013 car. It was starting to do the very slow cranks and started to get that will it start feeling. Popped a new battery in and it doesn't even feel like it turns over before firing up. Most cars won't fire the injectors until it hits a minimum crank speed.

Hmm.. consensus seems to say change the battery. Should I just change it then even though 2 different places tested it and said it was fine ?


Not entirely convinced though as it starts up fine 9 out of 10 times its just that 1 extended crank that happens ever so occasionally that eats me up

I'd check the alternator first. May not be doing a good job of keeping the battery charged.

Your first post about the place that tested and checked the battery you said it was at 12.6v which is actually on the low side for a charged battery. It should be about 13.3 at full charge.

Usually a battery shop will want to sell you a new battery IF your old battery shows signs of age or weakness.

Is the battery presently in your car, large enough (CCA - Cold Cranking Amps) to adequately run your car? Maybe someone put a cheapo, under rated one, in your car?

Personally, I spent too damn many years with old, weak batteries and jumper cables on the front seat, to put up with a flaky battery. Batteries are "one strike and you are out" with me anymore. Maybe it's because my days of push starting a car are over (hell, I can hardly get out of one these days).


humfrz

Thats why I was surprised when the guy told me to save my money as my battery was still ok. Thought he would be glad to sell me a battery.



The battery I have in the vehicle atm is the one recommended on this website :


https://www.batteriesplus.com.au/toyota-fittment-guide/


Exide Extreme X55D23DMF 650 CCA which should be plenty considering the stock battery is 440 CCA ?

Hmm maybe.. the place that did the 2nd test yesterday when I was about to buy a new battery showed a 12.8V rating

It would kill me too. I agree that it's likely something minor.

Well, hmmm... IF the battery is of the proper size and is healthy, as ol @NoHaveMSG pointed out, maybe it's time to check the alternator.

A quick & dirty test is shown here:

https://www.aa1car.com/library/battery_runs_down.htm



humfrz

Does that extended crank feel weak, or strong as ever? I don't think it's the battery but I'm ready to eat crow.

I guess I should elaborate a little more and I am a bit too lazy to search it right now. Most 12v batteries are in the 12.6-13.3v range when fully charged. If the car had been running for any amount of time when checked the voltage should be up around 13. Though if he had load tested it before it could have pulled off the residual charge, though 12.6 is on the low end of that.

Only when the alternator is charging it - right ?? - ;)


humfrz

13.8-14.2-ish

Crank feels the same it just goes on for a few seconds longer before the engine actually comes to live

I dunno, man. Grrrr....