Article posted on the valve recall engine murders
 

If Toyota doesn't address this issue quickly it could turn into a class action lawsuit. Dealers need to start being honest about this and for God sake read the manual when doing the recall work. This problem could be easily avoided if the techs at the dealers did their job correctly and didnt try to cut corners.

Wait, what?
Is this not accurate?: "Replacing valve springs is pretty basic and any half decent tech should be able to do it just fine."
I read it right here on the forum.

I just called the service director at our Subaru dealership. He is aware of these issues happening all over. And he mentioned some of the specific things (in the tech guidelines) to do and specific things NOT to do while working on boxer engine timing covers.

This is 100% not accurate on a boxer engine. Many people say once you open a boxer engine for the first time, it is never the same again.

I'm about to believe this, with the exception of @ermax.



humfrz

Building an engine isn't hard. Screwing up an engine isn't hard either. Effort... something that seems to be lacking in 20-somethings with flat brimmed hats and lifted diesel trucks.

It makes sense more FRSes have this issue than BRZes... A shit ton more FRSes were sold and are out there. Almost 3:1

I'm nervous though. My engine was replaced (not a used engine, a new long block) by Toyota last year. So far it's been good, but this recall thing makes me a little nervous that maybe Toyota techs can't handle building a boxer?

I was arguing with service manager at Toyota dealer after my engine started knocking. I told him this happened right after a major work done by your guys. And he says "It's not major work / difficult work" :bs:

I read the manual like 20 times now, seal application is super specific and far from basic. Someone with OCD should be building these engines.

I read that article today; it was a well-presented, accurate summary of what's been presented on this forum and it's highly probable that Chris Tsui, the author, is one of us and a contributor to and/or originator of one or more of the threads. It's nice to see more and more public acknowledgement of the issue, and hopefully the dealerships that are trying to shift to the blame to the consumer will become fewer and fewer. I dropped my car off this morning and the service manager was well aware of the issues, and said that because of them there's a huge parts-availability problem now. I feel better about the whole thing than I did yesterday; he seemed confident that a new engine for my car will be forthcoming. He's been great about everything on this car and some of my others over the years, and I have no reason to believe he will be less than helpful this time.

That's for splitting the block open, not pulling the valve covers and timing chain cover.


They aren't pulling the heads or splitting the block for this work.

I took my 2013 BRZ in about 3 weeks ago for the recall. Since they were already doing the recall I asked what it would cost me to replace the clutch since it was starting to make a noise when it was engaged. They told me I would only charge me for parts and not labor since they’re pulling the engine anyway. Long story short I pick up the car last night and I drive it less than a quater mike and the engine dies. I was able to turn it back on and drive it back to the dealer. And it cut off just as I turned into the street and I just coasted it in a parking spot. They email me this morning wanting me to provide service records for the oil changes, because the block blew.. I’ve always done them myself at every 6-8k miles. I’m kinda worried they’re going to try to pin this on me when the car was running perfectly fine when I took it there. I’m curious as to what I should do or tell them if they try to send me a bill.

It is. The problem isn't with replacing the springs the problem is with Subaru's decision to do away with actual gaskets in favour of goop.

If the engine only lasted a couple of blocks its clearly a workmanship issue on their part. If the motor seized that quick, it should have been knocking when you dropped it off

It is and it isn't a good article. It makes many presumptions of fact from forum statements. Even though I tend to agree with those presumptions they are not facts but people reading it may take them as such.

The problem isn't the goop, it's the technicians inability to handle it.

I've been gluing engines together since 2006, still haven't blown one up. All the engines I'm around are glued together, it's normal for us.

Slow down, be careful and don't blow up engines. Simple.


Should also note, this stuff isn't "RTV", the nasty smelling silicone stuff everyone has seen. It dries almost hard and doesn't act like that sticky crap at all.

And the manufacturing of the early 13 engines right from the start. This stuff has blown up engines from cars that had never been taken apart before. I have been preaching this to deaf ears for 3 years and the most recent update to the instructions shows EXACTLY the points I was talking about. Not a coincidence that the VIN range that had nasty leaks are also the ones that spun bearings right from the factory. If the goop was applied so poorly that a new car is leaking oil then there is a very good chance that it is blocking things it shouldn't. The design of the oil passages being so close to the sealant is just asking for trouble that you would not have with actual gaskets.

The car was working perfectly fine and I not kidding when I say I didn’t even drive it a quarter mile. I just felt uneasy when they emailed me asking for service records. They technically haven’t told me I’m responsible for the damage, but I’m just taking precautions.

It probably knocked on their test drive too.

This Threebond 1217H was actually damned easy to work with. Like you said you just go slow, watch your placement, don't stop, don't overlap, don't go too slow where it gets too thick and don't put your arm in it. Also place the parts perfectly so you don't have to slide them into position after the surfaces touch. It isn't rocket science. Prep work is also critical. You have to get ALL the old stuff off first and preferably use a trash can for the trash rather then the oil pan.

I'm at about 8,000 miles since my rebuild and have sort of stopped stressing about it failing but reading all these stories has me a bit stressed again. I figure 8K of serous abuse should have surfaced a problem by now. My fingers are crossed.

I agree with you re/ the presumption of facts. That's why I characterized it as a well-presented, good summation of what's been presented on the forum, and I give him credit for frequently citing his sources as primarily being forum posts and personal experience, rather than ignoring that and letting folks assume what he was writing was proven laboratory analysis rather than the anecdotal evidence that it primarily is.

Is this the first BRZ recall failure reported here????

Also, does anyone make a gasket that could be used instead of the liquid sealant that is suspected of causing the post recall failures??

I believe there have been a few BRZs so far, the vast majority of failures are on the FRS.

The engine went in to the shop with liquid gasket. It had a liquid gasket from the day a robot built it in the factory. The gasket material isn't the problem.

Glued together engines (cars for that matter) aren't new. I've been around it since 2006, they've been doing it since the 80s. Not RTV, the thick stuff. It works very well.

Yep, back in the day, I found goop was handy to "tack" a gasket in place, while putting two parts together and/or you could save a few pennies by re-using the old gaskets.

I reckon that either a Subaru bean counter figured they could save X dollars by eliminating the gaskets or they couldn't teach the robots how to put the gaskets on - :iono:


humfrz

The article references 17 FRS and 2 BRZs. Blaming the "inexperience" of the Toyota techs is premature though.
There were 27,000 2013 FRSes (some with 2012 build dates) vs 12,000 BRZs so right off the bat we would see 50% fewer potential failures. The Toyota dealers had the recall kits at least a month before the Subaru ones did so they have likely done many more already. It is completely feasible that the Subaru rate could easily meet the FRS one. Now that said, the updated instructions were issued mid February (the 14th if I recall) so this should help curb some of the failures.
Unfortunately we have no idea how many successful repairs have been made by either company since we only hear about the horror stories that skew the perception. We simply do not have enough data to say anything for sure.

The question isn't if a 1217H FIP gasket works well or not; it obviously does when a robot or top-flight mechanic who is familiar with exactly how and where it is to be applied actually does the work. The problem is that, after the fact, when robots or experienced specialists are not available to undertake this task, the human element seems to introduce failure with this stuff at a MUCH great rate than a human would simply using an old style, manufactured-for-this-specific-engine gasket. I've done one head gasket under the supervision of an experienced mechanic (which I am certainly not), a ton of valve cover gaskets, waterpumps, thermostats, etc., and have never had a gasket-related failure due to my admittedly mediocre mechanic skills and limited experience. It's pretty safe to say that if I undertook this job, I can say with certainty I'd create a grenade instantly. I can't even make a nice caulk line around a bathroom tub.
Even if it were possible, the opportunity for profit in making an aftermarket gasket that serves the same function as the 1217H FIPG in our engine is probably nonexistant. On the other hand, it may very well have given a lot of these well-meaning mechanics a better chance at success.

Yes the material itself is not at fault. The poor application and/or removal of the material is.

Yep, I reckon that some of the dealerships aren't believing that 5 minutes of supervision while applying the sealant isn't worth the time or money.


humfrz

agreed.....that is why a pre-fab gasket may likely be the solution for this problem or at least make it easier to put these puppies back together without killing them!

Don't put to much trust in the robot application either. Robots can and do screw up all the time. Just about as often as people do. Believe me I live it every single day. The problem with robots applying the sealant incorrectly is that it would be very difficult to quality control since it is internal and not visible. They could have hundreds of bad ones and not know it unless you had somebody sitting there looking closely at each one as it was assembled. This of course would defeat the purpose of having a robot!

The parts would have to be machined to accept a rubber gasket, or even a paper gasket. The liquid gasket forms only a tiny gap between the two pieces, taking out any irregularities more than anything.

The 722.9 Mercedes awd transfer case was put together with basically no sealant, some hard stuff that didn't work. The thought was that the surfaces were machines perfectly, sealant wasn't really important. They leaked, and we glued them back together with the normal engine sealant (similar to this "Threebond" stuff). Then cars started showing up with black sealant and no leaks.

This stuff make a very fine film between two closely matched parts. It's not blue RTV for gluing a thermostat on a '72 Ford pickup.

They are not going to all of a sudden make a gasket. Keep in mind that a few dozen, hundred or even thousand blown engines is almost meaningless it the grand scheme of their business. They will carry on with the updated instructions and replace the engines that blow when they are not followed.
I don't think there has been a single definite case where they have made anybody pay. There were a couple where they played the game but I don't think they have been resolved one way or the other yet. All the rest just got it replaced with no hassle. Total pain in the ass to the individuals but not even a blip in the company's overall business plan.

Toyota techs didn't build the engine, if it was replaced they received everything they needed without having to do much to it.

You mean they shouldn't be.

No he means they aren’t. The heads aren’t removed and the block halves aren’t split. All they do is remove the timing cover, valve covers, cam caps and then cams and rockers.

As already pointed out a prefab gasket wouldn’t be reliable on this engine due to the gazillion different surfaces that intersect. Even the FIPG fails on the bottom right of the timing cover because there are so many intersecting parts in that spot.

Test Drive?
 

Test Drive ? picked mine up this morning and checked the odometer vs. that they recorded when I dropped it off. They did not even add a mile ....

Actually, yeah they did. I saw it in 3 boxes before they built the engine. It did not come assembled.

They ordered a short block and two heads, or was it an assembled long block with additional parts?

:scared0016: