Is weight no longer an issue in sports cars?
 

Someone please enlighten me. I feel like I'm missing something here.

I'm following latest sports cars releases and aside from very few exceptions (Alpine A110) almost none of the sports cars coming to market today seem to even bother about weight at all.

It's startling me that the latest release of 911 992 is a pretty heavy car yet almost no one is even mentioning this in the reviews at all, it's like being a heavy sports car is no problem in today's world.

I'm in the school of thought of lighter sports car is better. I can certainly feel the difference between 1450 kg (3196 lbs) sports car and a 1250 kg (2755 lbs) sports car. Now sports cars are more like 1600 kg (3527 lbs)! That's the weight of small SUV!

So honestly am I missing something here? am I the only one who thinks like this? what's up?

I totally agree. Part of it has had to do with all the crash standards and stuff, being more things on the car and the way cars are constructed for impact. I think it also has to do with cars just getting bigger as companies want to make cars have more space due to consumer demand.

In part, people just don’t really have an interest in small cars anymore :/ or they at least aren’t buying a whole lot of them new




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I totally agree. Small cars that feel more like toys are so awesome


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Things change and the evaluation of a car should be done in the context of its generation. Weight is as important as ever but it's just a means to an end. Feel is usually what matters and weight helps but other things improve feel too.

I went from a 73 911s to a 996 Twin Turbo and was blown away at the difference in feel with the added weight. I think power is more popular than lightness these days which is unfortunate. I love my 86 and would only replace it with an Alpha 4c. At some point

Because consumers want, air, PS, no noise, and every other creature comfort known to man, they want the image of a sports car with the luxury and refinement of a luxo barge.

Most people who buy a sports car do it for the image.

In my "sports car world" the standard twins are porky.

Sports cars to me should be RWD, a convertible or coupe, 2 doors, manual transmission and light, under 1200kg at least, with a great power to weight ratio.

Lotus Elise light.

Alfa 4C light.

MX5 light.

Every thing seems to be evolving into fat GT cars.

And everyone is calling fat GT cars sports cars.

The term "sports cars" is thrown around at everything now, so much so it's lossing its true meaning.

Hell, I've heard people call Honda Civics and Golf GTI's sports cars.

The world has gone insane....... https://youtu.be/0wRmD5W5gqY

I miss my ap1.

but which one would you say you enjoyed more if I may ask? the 73? or the 996?

What puzzles me here is the Alpine A110

It does not have cramped interior or anything and it does comply with modern safety and amenities and it's even lighter than the twins!

Granted of course that I do fully approve of the twins (I happily own one now) but some might argue the BRZ is a small car with small power and mechanicals and breaks and all that. To that argument you can point at the Alpine A110 which is a fast car by modern standards so what's the excuse now for everyone else building a sports car?

Today, all I can think of is the Twins, Alpine A110, Mazda MX-5, some light hot hatches such as the Ford Fiesta ST, Lotus Elise, and that Alpha 4c or something rather. It's a short list of cars.

Other than this, everything out there now is SUV weight territory.

Yeah haha. The small enthusiast sports cars are really far and few between nowadays


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Man that’s a tough one. 2 different animals. The sound of the 73S was just incredible I never turned the radio on. The TT was a great GT car with gobs of power but somewhat disconnected. If I could have 1 back it would be the ‘73 hands down.

My lotus is about 1950 lbs., My '77 911s Targa about 2450 lbs., Twin at about 2800. All that tech and safety adds weight.

We're like minded

I just feel that fun cars should be very mechanical and analogue. I'll save the SUVs for general commuting when I'm not in the mood to drive.

A big part of it is price. They could build the 86 with half the weight but then it would be a $100,000 car and nobody could afford it. The really lightweight cars are expensive for a reason and comparing them to an entry level coupe is not apples to apples.
As said the modern equipment which either people demand or the government requires unfortunately adds weight. The manufacturers try to make every car (even the SUVs and pickup trucks) as light as possible to meet their emissions and mileage requirements. Then another department requires even more stringent safety devices which add weight. On top of both of those they still have to meet a price point which keeps the vehicle competitive which in turn restricts the materials they can use. It is a balancing act that they struggle with on all vehicles all the time. Our engineers are tasked by our customers to shave as much weight as possible off our rotors each time we quote and it is truly amazing the ways they can come up with to cut a few ounces but maintain or even improve function with each upgrade. If we didn't have the tech we have now modern cars would be even heavier than they are!

I thought I said the same thing, just less words. Lol

I agree with everything you say

but what really bothers me is that they don't even mention the fact that some of these newer status cars are getting too heavy.

I'm following reviews of the new 911 992 (I love 911s and always considering one) and I am so saddened that now the 911 is no longer a car I would want to buy because of how heavy it's gotten, yet reviews are not even mentioning this.

I do believe car reviewers help shape the sports car industry. Maybe this is my own opinion and it is wrong, but I do feel that cars such as the 911 were made famous in large part due to the rave reviews they get. So if reviewers are not calling out modern sports cars for being heavy and just skipping over this point, than sports cars will just continue to get heavier and heavier.

The BRZ is the lightest vehicle I have owned and to be honest, I never got in a 3,500+lb vehicle and said to myself, "This sure feels heavy. It would be better if it was lighter". Usually the heavier vehicles have the power to make up for the weight and are great highway cruisers. If the vehicle is smaller in size, but weighs a little more and has the right amount of power (new Supra), the extra weight doesn't bother me.

P.S. I don't track or autocross my vehicles, maybe that is why I don't really care.

I’ve definitely heard some of the die hard Porsche cult complain about how large an heavy the cars are becoming. But I think, specifically towards Porsches, there is a sort of bias towards them in auto journalism where they can’t do ANYTHING wrong haha.

Don’t get me wrong they make incredible, incredible cars and I’d love to own one.


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ALL cars are getting heavier. The "sports cars" are still far lighter proportionally than the sedans. What would be the point of screaming "they are heavier" when there is nothing they could do to make them lighter? I already stated why they have gotten heavier and that is not going to change. The increase in weight is why there have also been to increases in HP it is intended to counter that weight. I know that many forum members are the exception but the number of car buyers that are worried about weight is probably well under 1%. There is no shortage of lighter cars if you have the money to pay for them. Complaining that they are heavier is just pissing into the wind.

That is why I said "as mentioned".

If I understood your first post correctly, you seem to be on the inside of things when it comes to the underlying problem of why cars are getting heavier all the time.

Let me ask you this: what's your take on the Alpine A110 and what they've been able to accomplish with that vehicle?

I guess your miles may vary. I myself always felt the weight of the vehicle and always feel I had my most fun in the lighter more nimble ones.

Most of the cars are turbocharged now so there is so much torque from down low compared to an NA car that it doesn't even matter what the weight is. Torque doesn't seem to follow the laws of physics lol. A heavy ass Bentley Continental is fast af because it's got like 500-600 lb-ft from barely tickover

911 isn't a sports car, it's a grand tourer, always has been always will be.

https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews...d-test-review/


Most cars don't bother being actual sports cars because those don't sell well because most people don't perform any sports in their sporting vehicles (see above). 86 and MX5 are the only options under $40k new, and over $40k it's really just Lotus, everyone else is just selling cars to assholes with too much money (Porsche, Ferrari, Corvette) or regular cars that are sported up (BMW, Audi, Lexus, Merc), and every once in awhile they're actually good to drive (well most of the time for Porsche, and everyone else is stepping up their game).

Some manufacturers still care.

- Mazda made a big deal about the ND Miata matching the weight and size of the original NA, while boasting modern rigidity, safety and emissions.

- The first-gen FR-S at 2750 lbs. was pretty light for what it is (2+2 RWD coupe with an H4 engine).

- VW reduced the overall weight on the mk7 GTI platform (despite increased size and rigidity over the mk6), mainly by using more high strength, thermoformed steel.

- I remember when Ford tried to boast about the reduced weight of the s550 Mustang platform. It turns out their numbers were misleading, but at the very least they were trying.

I actually think as FE standards rise, we will just see more of an emphasis on lighter weight.

All aluminium body
Aluminum and titanium suspension and structural components
One piece un-sprung and barely padded seats.
Two seats smaller than 86.
Minimalist interior
Expensive lightweight wheels
Very doubtful would even come close to meeting US crash requirements.
If available here would be pushing $100,000

It is NOT your standard mass produced inexpensive coupe and to expect the same from such would be a pipe dream.

They ALL care. Even with their other vehicles. It isn't a matter of caring it is a matter of economics.

Isn't it always :thumbsup:.

The Mazda ND is a great success story in my book. My issue with it is mainly that it's just too small for me. I couldn't even stretch my legs inside it let alone the fact that I do love the small rear seats in my BRZ which I've used so many times for various reasons.

I still absolutely love the ND and if money was no problem I'd get one.

Yes! This is one of my pet peeves when people think the manufacturers are some sort of not for profit enterprises and should be able to just make whatever a teeny tiny itsy bitsy portion of the driving pubic want for a price that wouldn't even cover half the cost of manufacture. I have been in the industry for 30 years and have never seen this attitude so bad as in the last 5. Cars are getting heavier. Yes but it isn't for lack of trying and pumping shitloads of money into new tech to fight that weight gain. Obviously I can not say how much but the money spent on reducing the weight of a set of rotors would shock people. That is one part of one system of the whole car. This same thing is being done for every single part. Right down to the very nuts and bolts.

I see your point.

I don't know about the crash test nor the $100,000 price tag but say even if it did pass the crash test and was more reasonably prices at 60 or 70k US, that would still make it more than twice the price of a BRZ or MX-5.

oh well, I guess it is pissing into the wind

I will say with 95% confidence it would not pass the US crash tests or other safety requirements as built. It is an $80,000 car in Europe and by the time they made it pass here not only would it have gained weight it would have gone up in price. It is unbelievably expensive to get cars certified for import to the US.

If you were to gut the brz/frs to an extreme level, it would weigh between 2200 - 2300lbs something. Lighter than the alpine.

2,280 to be precise
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=42284

What about Smart Cars? Apparently they have good crash ratings and only weigh about 1,800lbs. That would fulfill some peoples light weight and nimble requirements.

But for the size of them they shouldn't weigh more than about 1,000 pounds! They also suffer from weight gain to survive a crash. And at 89 HP their power to weight ratio sucks big time!

I had once a smart 2-seater. Not the current model, but the last one. Main advantage was as a city car. I could find a parking spot almost everywhere. The power wasn't much, but it was also really fun to drive on curvy mountain roads. I remember at that time an interview of Mercedes' CEO doing a similar comparison in Alps using a smart and a slk sports car. The smart could keep going with the slk without issues. The slk name was derived from sportlich (sporty), leicht (light) and kurz (short), but again it was a much heavier car and you could feel it in such roads. On the other hand, the smart was really weak and with no power on the highway. A slight wind could make it "unstable" and the top speed was very low.

Oh no doubt at all. I had a highly modified 91 Geo Metro convertible for a while. It had a custom header and exhaust, an intake that didn't suck air from the engine compartments, a tune and some things I never did figure out. Probably took it up to a whopping 80HP but at 1700 pounds it worked. Was also lowered, had all blacked out lights and a deep green paint job. Looked like some sort of exotic sports car. With the mods and the 5 speed tranny it was fast as hell. Surprised many a wannabe street racer. Maybe that is what everybody would like.

Looked something like this only in dark green.

http://momentcar.com/images/geo-metro-1994-8.jpg

LESS IS MORE...
I agree with first post but "lightness" costs and despite that BRZ/GT86 is a mass produced sport car sharing components from other Subaru models that passes successfully all crash tests, it's light enough for this price range.
If I could ask something from Toyobaru will be 100-150Kg less weight not the extra power many others ask for, once I test drove a Lotus Elise powered to 200+ps and it was much more fast than my STI on a local track.

In the real world torque matters. Track fast and street slow don't cut it.