Any predictions on how Subaru will differ from Toyota/Scion
 

I looked at the limited number of threads here in the Subaru sub-forum. Haven't seen any thread dedicated to this topic. So I'm curious to hear what you guys think the difference will be?

My predictions for Subaru:
- very subtle difference in body work but still very similar to Toyota/Scion design
- maybe different headlights/taillights
- possible use of fog lights
- same 2L boxer-4 as Toyota, but maybe the Subaru will have a slight bump in hp/tq compared to the Scion with ECU/freer flowing exhaust? (not more than 5-10hp difference?)
- no turbo
- no awd
- slightly upgraded interior
- upgraded brakes stock
- a bit stiffer suspension (maybe a higher trim/package)
- slightly heavier than the Toyota/Scion (nothing major but maybe 30-50kg)


That is it for now. Some of these could be way off.

that all seems reasonable, but i would speculate the weight would be closer to the toyo version. where would that come from, the bigger brakes?

i agree that the subaru version will be n/a. maybe a turbo version comes out in a year or two i hope (for both toyo and subie).

a few other tidbits from nasioc forum re: name and specs

well that [2000 RS] was a consideration at one time and only a few people knew that... but no, that isn't the name.
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show...&postcount=638

There is no turbo in the plan for launch. It's not that kind of car.
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show...&postcount=640

assuming you find the source credible (which i do), no turbo at launch for sure, but maybe (not necessarily) a turbo later on. in fairness, the FB engine family is all new (in the 2011 forester), then the direct injection on the FB will be all new next year for the toyobaru. at some point subaru needs to turbocharge the FB for WRX/STi variants, but i guess they are working on one thing at a time.

Maybe 30-50kg is a bit too much for the weight increase. I was thinking brakes, interior, sunroof (probably not standard) would add some weight. So maybe cut that estimate in 1/2 then.

Thanks for the links to nasioc. Seems like some decent info over there. Not sure if it is legit, but it sounds like it could be. Yeah I don't see a turbo version until maybe 2-3 years into the model possibly (depending how successful it is). I would actually just prefer if they kept it a NA platform and leave the turbo for the WRX and STI.

Ichi (and everyone else), I look forward to hearing what your predictions might be.

skepticism is a healthy thing. i am a longtime lurker/occasional poster over there and SOA Blog carries a lot of weight as a legitimate employee/spokesperson for SOA. Since these spy shots came out, they have been a bit more candid about the car (see my above post), but they are also obligated to not spill too many beans, lest they get fired, lol. Mostly they are around to answer any questions and clear up any misconceptions I reckon.

FWIW, SOA blog has made it clear that there is no AWD version. That is one of those misconceptions that never seems to die. Most people here have caught on, but not everyone :)

Headlights, tails, interior, bumpers. I don't see any discernible weight and much less so, power, difference.

Upgraded brakes? ROFL, gtfo... no. Any "differences" of that kind will cost you more, and will probably be available in the Toyota/scion version too.

http://www.carbizbuzz.com/wp-content...ntiac_vibe.jpg

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_MwSsrF1IUL...400/matrix.jpg

http://www.acarplace.com/brands/gm/saturn/sky.jpg

http://www.autodoplnky.cz/picture/tu...opel-gt-03.jpg

My prediction is pretty close to yours.
Base model
- same chassis design expect bumpers, mirrors, lights, front fenders & all other cosmetic stuff
- Engine will have lower hp (regular FB20)
- No turbo
- No AWD
- brakes will be Subaru's 2/1 pot brake calipers they using on 2.5i
- prob be softer suspension setup
- Interior will be same as FR-S
- weight will be same as base model FR-S (maybe +-10lbs)
- Price tag will be +-$1k w base FR-S

RS model
- upgrade front lip & spoiler
- Engine will be same FR-S D4-S
- No Turbo
- No AWD
- Brake will be upgraded to Subaru 4/2 pot calipers (not Brembos)
- Bit stiffer suspension (spring upgrade)
- Interior will have lil here & there sports option stuff (like sports short shift knob & etc)
- Weight will be +5~30lbs
- Price tag will be +$3k from base

Next gen will have 2 extra vers
GT model
- upgrade front lip & spoiler (bit different from RS model)
- Engine will be same FR-S D4-S w Turbo
- No AWD
- Brake will be upgraded to Subaru 4/2 pot calipers (not Brembos)
- Bit stiffer suspension (spring & suspension upgrade)
- Interior will have all sports package
- Weight will be +55~80lbs
- Price tag will be +$8k from base

STI model
- TBA

i dont think we will see that 148 hp engine in this car in any trim level. i think everything will be the same in terms of weight, suspension, output, performance. there could be some trim level differences. maybe subaru will have a "limited" trim level with leather, heated heats, etc.

the differentiating factors usually discussed are front/rear fascia and head/taillights. wouldnt expect to see a fake hood scoop on this n/a car.

interior changes could go either way. maybe just some brushed aluminum, or some different fabric on the seats.

Are you sure bout that? Subaru have been changing a lot of thing. ex: Impreza is now separated from WRX & STI. Drop hp on Impreza for better eco. Bring new H4 engine (FB). Bring out 1.6L turbo ver and might come back to WRC world. Also there are few rumor bout they're planning to make hybrid car.

Subaru official really haven't said anything bout their ver... so technically they can use FB20/25. It's not like they need to change anything much.

Again, I'm just stating as possibility and IF I was them, I would do it this way... unless Toyota put a stop saying "No, you can't put stock FB20/25 engine".

Who told you this... ;) :bellyroll:

LOL just my speculation. No actual info sorry :)

Uh huh! I'm calling your bluff and raising you 10 chips! ;)

An STI varient would be sweet! :thumbsup:

yea, i agree with you that the could put any FB engine in there with or without direct injection. it just seems like they have made direct injection such a big part of the toyobaru's PR, how could they release a normal fuel injected version? plus, it would look bad for subaru to offer a base engine below Scion. Below Scion! think about that.

in theory at least, direct injection FB20 should have similar fuel economy as compared to a 'normal' FB20. so if CAFE/EPA was the motivation to offer a lesser engine, that does not compute. right?

so there's two reasons not to offer the 148HP engine: no fuel economy motive, and no motive to position your brand below freaking scion.

Price tag my friend. Just say SCION FR-S ver start around $20.5k vs Subie ver came out around $17.8k. (That's around base NA Impreza cost.) Now to some people who don't care bout hp or performance, which sounds good? 40~50 less hp, but get 5~10 more better mpg and cost $3~6k less Subie ver or Toyota ver?

Again, Toyota won't loose any $ from this either. Cuz both uses same chassis. Other stuff is pretty much same too just few cosmetic difference. So in my view it's still a win win situation for Toyota & Subaru.

i just dont think subaru wants people to think of their car as "just like the scion, only cheaper and slower." that doesnt sound good to me. both of us like subaru, right? do we really want the subaru brand to be a cheaper, slower scion? i think the subaru marketing people would agree

also the fuel economy argument doesnt add up to me. take mazda for example, in the article linked to below. the 2011 engine was 2.0, 148 hp, 25 city/33 hwy. the new engine with DI is 2.0, 155 hp, 28 city/40 hwy. (note, there is also a new transmission, which helped as well) so DI provides more HP and better fuel economy. this may not be perfectly true for the toyobaru, but i dont see a fuel economy penalty for DI.

http://www.autoblog.com/2011/04/20/2...pdated-exteri/

but lets not waste too much internet bandwidth disagreeing with each other, because i like your style. we can agree to disagree if you wish.

GTFO.......

Power:
1991-1994 1G Eagle Talon TSI FWD manual= 190hp
1991-1994 1G Mitsubishi Eclipse GS-T manual= 195hp

2003-2005 Pontiac Vibe base= 126hp
2003-2005 Toyota Matrix=130hp

Weight:
2006 Pontiac Vibe base= 2700lbs
2006 Toyota Matrix Standard= 2679lbs

10kg difference right there

Pontiac Solstice= 2877lbs
Saturn Sky= 2940lbs/Open GT= 2934lbs

29kg difference right there


1996 Mitsubishi 3000GT VR-4 (coupe)= 3760lbs
1996 Dodge Stealth R/T turbo (coupe)= 3671lbs

40kg difference right there


LMFAO/ROFL.....ROFL....

Listen you can try and ridicule people as much as you want, but at least try and back it up with some facts while you are at it?

You don't see any weight difference? How are you so sure. I just gave 3 examples of cars built off the same platform. Difference in weight ranges from 10-40kg. What is so unreasonable about that?

Power, same thing. I didn't say there would be 50-80hp difference. I just said 5-10hp which is reasonable if they come with different exhaust systems/ecu maps. Not completely out of the picture to get ~5-10hp difference.

I don't see any reason why the Subaru won't come with different brakes than the Toyota/Scion. I didn't say they would be a Brembo kit. I just said they would be upgraded stock. If the Subaru does indeed have a higher entry price point, you better believe it will come with "higher/better" specs compared to the entry Scion/Toyota. If they are the same price, that is a different story.

So in summary Matador, there are cars that differ in weight (Pontiac Solstice vs. Saturn Sky, your examples). There are also cars based off the same exact platform that differ in hp (Toyota Matrix vs. Pontiac Vibe, once again your examples).

So please don't come in here with a holier than thou attitude when the examples you gave proved my exact point!!! / rant. :fighting0040:

^ What is making some of you think that Subaru is a higher-end brand than Toyota? I think they're pretty well equal...

subaru is equal with toyota, but not scion IMO.

the two cars can be priced equally, id be fine with that (assuming the content/specs are the same). but i dont think subaru should be positioned below scion with lesser content features. thats all. if anything, scion should be the stripper version since that brand allegedly appeals to younger, less-affluent types.

+1.

I am speaking from the point of view as someone who lives in the US. Hence no Toyota version and only the Scion and Subaru version. Scion's whole mission is to sell cheap/entry level cars to generation Y that they can afford. Just look at Scion's lineup, all of their cars start underneath $20k with the mean around $17-18k. Then take a look at Subaru which goes all the way up to $37k for the STI.

oh, snaps, didnt notice you are from the land of the long white cloud in your bio. yeah, the dynamic is different here because of the scion thing. in NZ i imagine the content/pricing might be similar. besides, content often differs in different markets.

i spose we could discuss content/pricing differences in each market, but that would devolve into the realm of the preposterous pretty quick.

p.s. what part of NZ are you located? i used to live in wellington and hamilton.

SCIOIN tC starts @ $18.9k while Subaru Impreza starts @ $17.4k

Also adding all the fun stuff to tC it goes over $35k

Who the hell would pay $35k for a TC?

My boss's daughter paid lil over $31k (well, she didn't paid, my boss paid) for new one. Full custom made from online.

you are comparing Scion's most expensive model to Subaru's cheapest model (thats sold in north america).

I've compared w size & spec. Nothing to do w cheapest or expensive. Or do you want xB? That starts at $16.7. Less than $1k difference between xB & Impreza

Also chill out. It's just my prediction and it's not like it's gonna happen.

Yeah, that makes sense... different markets. But at the same time the FT86/FR-S all over the world should be very similar (i.e. cheap everywhere), so I doubt there is going to be much of a price difference just because it is marketed under Scion rather than Toyota? Edit: Take this point - if the tC or xB were marketed under Toyota in the US do any of you think the price would be much different?

I'm from Levin, in the Manawatu. Currently at Massey University in Palmy Nth. ;)

I'd be happy to discuss/let you guys know the pricing when we get the prices here. Would be interesting to see the difference, and I highly suspect it to be much more expensive over here, just because every import seems to be.

Quick Q. Is there a Toyota Zelas selling over there and how much?

Wash the sand out of your vagina. The pics I posted were visual references, nada mas.

Guess you'll just have to wait and see, but if you think the cars are gonna be far apart you really have another thing coming.

I don't mind Toyota/Subaru proving me wrong, I'd really like to have that dilemma of "wow, which one of these two awesome cars should I buy".

But yeah... fat chance.

p.s. The sky/ opel GT had a whopping 6 pound differnce. Hmmm. skipping Lunch and having a shit could make that difference on a good day.

Dueces.

i spose i'd better take ichi's advice and chill about Scion's image, i thought it was well established that Scion was rubbish, hence all the hand-wringing about it being a Scion in North America.

Its hard to compare apples to apples when you're talking about pricing in other countries. the exchange rate conversion is not all there is - taxes, model specs, and tons of other things must be accounted for. for example when you see a price on a new car in USA, no tax is included. I believe the opposite is true in NZ, AUS, UK...

i married a girl from palmy, every day i fear she will want us to move back there, LOL

LOL I, myself am not fan of SCION... but give em some chance. Cuz this car will make or break SCION/Toyota image. IMO

Actually my comparison was the Pontiac Solstice vs. Saturn Sky/Opel GT; not Sky vs. Opel GT. Get it? You posted the pictures as a reference to show how other cars in the past built off the same platform didn't differ. I proved you wrong on two fronts regarding the horsepower and weight. So please pinch your taint for me for the huge fail on your part for not doing due diligence in actually researching the difference in the examples you were giving. You said weight wouldn't differ. I showed you it could by anywhere from 10-40kg on past examples of same platform cars. You said hp wouldn't differ, I proved you wrong there. All of those examples (evidence) that I actually provided you with showed that the Toyota/Scion vs. Subaru could (not will) differ by 5-10hp and 10-50kg.

So once again the example that you just quoted was me comparing the Solstice vs. Sky/Opel GT. NOT NOT NOT the Sky vs. Opel GT as you just did. Cool? :thumbsup:

I should also add that I think the Subaru will not come with a hood scoop as some renderings had it. I know no turbo so no sense in hood scoop. However some will think there might be one ala the 2.5RS. But I will say no hood scoop even as a NA car.

I posted to show that they didn't LOOK much different. I made a comparisson between a sky and an opel gt. Don't see a pic of the solstice anywhere. K, champ? Get over yourself about trying to "prove" me wrong.

So then where did the "no difference in hp" and "no difference in weight" comments come from?


Edit: I never said there would be huge differences in appearances either. I wrote "very subtle" differences in the body work. The examples you gave do have very subtle differences along with the Eclipse vs. Talon, 3000GT vs. Stealth, Mazda B series vs. Ranger...etc. All of those have the same general shape and appearance. However they do have subtle differences. Even the Vibe vs. Matrix has subtle differences. Same with Opel GT vs. Saturn Sky. Subtle differences.

Yeah, I understand the taxes, etc. add up the price. ;) What I meant by 'cheap everywhere' was relatively, over here $55-65K would be considered cheap (or in the $20-$25K USD) range for this car. ;)

Wish I had that sort of luck... Sadly, the Supra is a cock magnet much more than a chick magnet :(

Nope, no Toyota Zelas here. Nothing of a different name (but same car)either.

For reference, our base Corolla (5 Dr Hatch, 1.8L Manual) is $34,490 RRP ;)

Just to add to your prices in NZ but for Subaru impreza range.

Base impreza for 2011
2.0R Hatch/Sedan $33990.00 5MT RRP inc GST

2.0R Sport Hatch/Sedan 5MT $36990.00

WRX Hatch/Sedan 5MT $45990.00

WRX STI Hatch/Sedan 6MT $63490.00

WRX STI SPEC.R Hatch/Sedan 6MT $74990.00

^ Anyone care to comment about the prices of those cars in the US?

I had a quick look at the US base corolla (although I couldn't find much, the website isn't all that good for pricing), and it seems the base is $16,990 for the Corolla Sedan (do you have a hatch in the US?). Ours is about two times as much after all tax, etc. is added.

I worked out the $55K-65K price for the Toyobaru a little while ago using the US's base Impreza price comparing it to our base Impreza price, but I would be happy to see some more price comparisons! :D

This is the best example of how the three models will differentiate themselves. Badges, and little details.

All three will be essentially the same. Minor differences in trim, standard features and whatnot, but the body will be damn close.

WRX is probably the most direct comparison, as far as car specs go. looks like ya'll get the 2.5T, which surprises me. ours is $25,495 before sales tax.

yours is 45,990
minus 15% GST = 39,990
exchange rate adjustment 0.79 (but fluctuates a lot) = $31,593

so our cars are cheaper, but im sure there are other things not accounted for in this rough, dirty analysis.

in the USA at least, people think the toyobaru will start in the $20-$25k range, which is slightly cheaper than a WRX. So with any luck, your new toyobaru will cost you less than NZ$45k next year!