Terrible Experience With Dealer on Transmission
 

Hi. We have a 2018 86 GT. Love the car. It's actually my daughter's. I have a question about shifter alignment.

It started making a noise. She brought it to me and I said it sounded like the throw out bearing. She took it to the local dealer.

STRIKE ONE: They could not hear the sound. They even got their "master technician" and he said he couldn't hear it - even though my daughter could hear it at the time. The guy even stalled the car when he was pushing the clutch in and out.

So I told her to take it to a Subaru dealer and see what they said. The guy there, in 3 seconds, told her that her throwout bearing was making noise. Of course they can't do Toyota warranty work. So she went back to the dealer to have them fix it. They almost reluctantly agreed to check it out. They finally agreed it was the throw out bearing and fixed it.

STRIKE TWO: My daughter picked it up and noticed the shifter gates were wrong. The 1/2 throw was like 1/4" away from the 3/4 throw and there was maybe a 2" space between 3/4 and 5/6. Also the shift knob was crooked AND the dash gear number indicator wasn't working.

WHAT SLOPPY WORK? WHY DIDN'T THEY FIRST NOTICE THAT THE GATES WERE MESSED UP.

STRIKE THREE: I took it back and they insinuated the close gates was normal. But they fixed it and when I went back, the light worked, the shifter knob was no longer twisted, and the gates were equal. BUT now it would not go into 1 or 2 easily. The service rep, the manager and the tech guy all insisted it was correct. But I finally got another technician there to admit is was all wrong.

I'm thinking they don't know how to shift. Which isn't surprising.

What it did was, for example, if you pushed the shift lever all the way to the left, against the hard stop, to slide up to 1 or down to 2, it would not go into 1 or 2. You had to release pressure so the lever would spring over 1/4" to go around the blockage. Similarly, if you were downshifting from 3 to 2, sliding the lever down out of 3, against the "wall" and then down to 2, it would be blocked.

Can someone tell me what they were doing wrong? I'm assuming that they rotated the linkage over too far one way, and then too far another way. But is there a chance anything is bent or broken in there? And I need to worry about some cludged fix where they bent something back?

The gating on these is very tight and if they misaligned any of the bushings or tabs it will throw it off enough to miss the gate. If working properly now there should be nothing to worry about. Misaligned shifters is fairly common after tranny work on these.

Hello Jay Laifman and welcome to ye ol forum - :clap:

Did you buy the car new?

How many miles on it?

Any power mods?

On my 2013 FR-S when I push the shifter lever all the way over to the left, it will easily go into either 1st or 2nd gear - so, yours should too.

I reckon if you keep taking it back to the dealer, eventually they will get it right - :iono:

Maybe our resident shifter expert @Ultramaroon , could give you some insight - :) I'll ring him up.


humfrz

FYI, I picked up the car. It is admittedly back to the way it was when we bought it new earlier this year.

They said that the guy set the "carousel" incorrectly. Does that seem to answer these issues above? Is there still a possibility they damaged anything?

After all the issues they did wrong, it makes me have to wonder if the throw out bearing change was done properly.

Whoops. I just posted that and didn't see the two responses.

Thanks guys. Yes, we bought it new, and it has less than 3,000 miles on it. No mods at all. I've got other cars with mods - including with flat 4s. This one I think is marvelous as a perfect sports car as it is.

My daughter has been on the track in my other cars. But we haven't had the chance yet with this one. But we will...

At 3,000 miles I doubt there was anything wrong with TOB to start with but if they changed it then there is little they could do to mess it up.
Tell your daughter that listens for weird noises in these cars will drive her insane. They make very different sounds than many cars and even the noises others make that you don't hear stand out. Worrying about noises in these cars is a certain road to madness.

Sounds like they misaligned the reverse lockout plate too far to the left, causing the shifter to get stuck in a kind of gray area between the 1-2 gates and reverse

^^this^^

In defense of my daughter, :) the car was definitely making a strange noise when the clutch was depressed that it was not making before. And that's the real delta - did something change? Which leads to the concern that it will change further and get worse. And she is definitely used to very noisy engines!

But I do know exactly what you are saying and you're 100% right!

New change noted. Maybe Tcoat's advice applies here. But, I'll ask just the same.

Now that they've changed the the TOB, the clutch pedal travel is shorter. We're not noticing any grinding or anything suggesting it's not getting full release. But, it's odd that it's different. I'm not sure what they would have done to cause the clutch pedal throw to change.

I have heard of FRS/BRZ people shortening the clutch master rod to shorten the pedal travel. But I think that is bunk, on the boarder of bad. You can't shorten the throw by shortening the rod. All you do is give the pedal less travel before it hits the firewall. All that does is risk having too little travel and not getting full clutch release, and resulting premature clutch failure and worn synchros.

But, similarly unless the new TOB arm has a different angle creating a different ratio, I can't see how this job would have changed anything. But it did.

Since I have no confidence in the quality of the work, I have to inquire if this is an issue.

Maybe the mechanic was practicing.

Replaced my clutch(also due to bad throwout bearing) at 72k miles recently. And I too had the same issues with my shift gate. The solution is simple and the problem the same: it required putting the shifter into 2nd gear and using a feeler gauge to make the space before tightening.

In other words, both your and my "mechanic" were apparently too good to read instructions and just turned screws assuming that is all that was needed.

2nd gear, hold gauge, turn screw...how hard could that have been? Do Chiltons manuals not exist anymore? What are these clown techs(not mechanics) using nowadays if anything at all?

New, but related, issue. Ever since they replaced the TOB, shifting into 1st and 2nd when the car is cold is really hard and notchy. I really have to press hard to get it to go. After it warms up a bit, it gets smoother. But it was never like this before.

Thoughts?
Clutch not fully releasing?
Is that because replacement TOB not exactly the same, maybe a little shorter?
Could the fluid in the clutch have been disturbed during the transmission removal, and not properly bled again?
Could they have replaced the transmission fluid and gone with one that is not good in the cold? Note though we're talking a frigid 50* outside, if even that cold.

Thanks for any thoughts.

I will add that once warm, it seems to shift better than ever before.

Hi ya, Jay Laifman.

So, your transmission shifted just fine before you had the TOB replaced.

What kind of oil did you have in the transmission before the clutch was worked on? What kind did they refill it with?

Are you sure the transmission is completely full?

I would suggest you bleed the hydraulic clutch system.

Also, you may consider adjusting the clutch.

Who did the work? Dealer, yourself, a shop?

You also may wish to take it back to whoever replaced the TOB and tell them that your transmission just ain't working right - and ask them to fix it.


humfrz

how did the updated TOB originally fail in 3000 miles is what I would be asking as I haven't seen other threads with a bad TOB ever since they released the TSB...

Thanks. It was done by the local Toyota dealer. The car has only a few thousand miles on it. So it had the original factory fluid in it. I have no idea if they would have drained any of it for changing the TOB. I assume they wouldn't. But maybe they do so they can upcharge Toyota!

I have no idea how or why it failed. All I know is that it was making noise. At first the Toyota dealer claimed not to hear it - even though we could. We then went to a Subaru dealer and their manager didn't even have to have us say anything. He told us our TOB was making noise when he walked up.

I also don't know what TOB was in the car. So I can't tell you if ours came with an updated one from the factory.

you have a MY18 and they updated the part back in 2017 so ya definitely had the updated one from the start.



too many issues have been created/caused by concern due to "noise" on this platform...you never mentioned whether there was actually a problem experienced by your daughter, just a concern for the "noise" emanating from the clutch.. Could very well be nothing was wrong from the start, the Subie techs were either clueless or wanted to satisfy you guys and went along with a bad TOB and ended up doing a poor job installing it thus causing actual problems..

at this point it sounds like ya guys have it working fine, the car can be clunky especially cold (start ups under 60 degrees here in arizona is noticeably different than starting my car up in the middle of a 120 degree summer day) drive the car when it is fully warmed up, the notchy shifts it will go away. get a louder exhaust or turn up the music ^^

Noise is one thing. A change in noise is completely different. This was a change in noise. There was definitely a squeal when pressing on the clutch that wasn't there before.

I've been working on my cars for 45 years. This was not a new noise to ignore on a new car.

The Subaru guys didn't have anything to do with the work. They just identified the noise when the Toyota guys didn't have a clue. They were never even going to work on the car.

The Toyota guys continued to show they don't have a clue when they created all these other problems.

FWIW, even though they messed up other things, the noise definitely went away with the new TOB.

Also, it's not just a stiff shift into 1st and 2nd. You really need to push very hard to get it to go. So hard, my daughter couldn't even get it to go into gear. Yes, she probably could have pushed harder. But it should NEVER be so hard that anyone thinks it is blocked out. Cold or otherwise.

eh after breaking in my car, my clutch has made a lot of weird sounds, including some squealing, off and on especially on start up over the past 50 K miles with the original TOB before the update and I've yet to have any issues with shifting. Would not be surprised if y'all get some weird noises again.

from reading everyone's stories working with dealerships, they are very hit or miss. the 86 platform is not a common car for toyota or subie dealers to work on, half the time the sales people & even managers don't even know toyota sells a sports car. maybe take it to a local shop that sees a lot of twins to have another look.

Yeah. It was painfully obvious when we first picked up the car and they had misaligned the shifter gate that these guys had no clue how a manual transmission should work. I guess that's to be expected more and more these days since there are less and less manual transmissions. Just because a guy works on a car doesn't mean he has any idea how to shift.

The local Subaru dealer, who is more accustomed to the engine, can't do warranty work. And I don't think the tranny is Subie - maybe you guys know what it is.

The next closest Toyota dealer is a possibility.

But, first, I was thinking I'd just try some of the suggestions - like bleeding the clutch, and checking the transmission fluid, possibly replacing it if I had the sense they changed it. I will also look into what clutch adjustments there are. But I don't really want to mess with that if this really is work the dealer should be doing.

I just looked at these instructions that say the clutch pedal travel, as measured at the clutch face, should be 110-115 mm. I measured mine and it is 100 mm.

I got the measurements in the PDF attached by Ultramaroon here: https://www.ft86club.com/forums/show...+adjust&page=2

Is there any reason to believe those measurements are not correct for a 2018 86?

Actually, if you look at a post of mine higher up, I mentioned that we thought the clutch pedal stroke seemed shorter when we got it back. While I can't understand why the dealer would bother to change the pedal stroke when changing the TOB, all three of us who drive the car all separately noticed it. I'm wondering if this is the whole thing. I just readjusted it to 110 mm. We'll see how it feels this morning when I drive it.

Well, with the longer stroke, it's shifting better and smoother than ever. I'd say it's a little better with the first cold shifts. But not perfect.

What is the consensus on what is the best transmission fluid for these cars? And what is the other cars that run with this transmission? Someone mentioned possibly Miata. I'm going to search and see what I can find.

Sounds like you're sneaking up on the problem. - :thumbsup:

As far as the transmission fluid, I suggest you stick with the type of oil specified in the maintenance manual. What brand, hell I donno, I don't see why the factory fill stuff isn't just fine.

I still suggest you bleed (or have bled) the clutch system, especially since you realized an improvement by adjusting the clutch.


humfrz

Yes, I'm going to bleed it.

I've looked around at the countless threads on the correct fluid. Lots of opinions. I could not however find if anyone knew what actually came in the transmission from the factory - as opposed to what my dealer might have on its shelf (if it did actually swap it). In case anyone out there cares, what I've seen seem to be the most highly regarded fluid is from the Ford dealership, XT-M5-QS. The Miata and S2000 guys also seem to like this best too. Also Motul Gear 300, 75W90. But, I'm not trying to start another transmission fluid thread here! Lots of those already on this site.

I heard from the dealership. They claim they did not touch the fluid in the transmission or the clutch fluid, and that they did not change anything other than the TOB (like the lever).
This does not explain:
(1) Why three of us all separately noticed a shorter clutch pedal throw. However, I must admit it does seem odd that the tech would bother to touch that.
(2) Why the change in only the TOB has made 1st and 2nd harder when cold - unless the replacement TOB they used was slightly shorter and therefore not pushing the clutch in as far. But there is no way to know that at this point. Maybe the tech bunged up the splines on the input shaft so the clutch plate does not slide as freely, or put on a more sticky lubricant. But I would think that if that is bad enough to cause a problem, that it wouldn't care if the car was cold or not.

Hmm, I'm liking this theory of using the wrong lube on the input shaft. It explains the hard shifting when cold. It wouldn't have been an intentional mistake or even an error by the tech. It could simply be that when Subaru assembled the engine and transmission, the lube it used in there did not match what Toyota has on its shelf for its cars.

Of course, I'm not likely to remove the transmission to find out - or demand the dealership do it. Well, not yet anyway. If I can find that there is some support for this from BRZ experience versus FRS experience after clutch changes, I might just push it.

Finally fixed! I have to give credit to the dealership for really staying in it to get it resolved.

A bunch of things did not fix it: different transmission fluid, re-aligned shifter and pins, and even using the correct input shaft lube (they had in fact used the wrong stuff - and much stickier).

What solved it? A new transmission. The service manager said that he learned that there are a number of transmissions that have this issue - and most are in Australia. They have the same symptoms: when completely cooled down, like in the morning, they will not go into 1st when the car is rolling at anything above a couple miles an hour, and they will not go into 2nd or need a massive push to go in.

We have no idea why it didn't start happening until they took out the old tranny to replace the bad TOB. Maybe just coincidence. Maybe the mechanic dropped it or put too much pressure on something.

So now you know.