Am I stupid if I don't buy a Civic Si?
 

Eager to hear some thoughts on this... I'm in the market for a new car...

I _want_ an 86/BRZ. I think they're sexy as hell. I like the idea of a small, lightweight, low car. I've tracked an FR-S and it was fun, although it sure was tricky to keep the speed up.

I understand that with sports cars, concessions have to be made, like useless back seats, limited trunk space, noisy cabins, door windows with no frames, etc.

That's all fine, if it's all in the name of making a car go around a track faster.

Except now there's the Civic Si, which goes around VIR 4 seconds faster than a BRZ according to Car and Driver.

Plus the Civic Si only weighs ~100 lbs. more, it has more torque, better skidpad numbers, it has useful back seats, a bigger trunk, door windows with frames, a nicer interior, it's cheaper, all the reviews say the handling is spectacular, and it comes standard with all the features that Toyobaru charge $3000 extra for (automatic climate control, CarPlay, etc.).

I really don't want to be a guy who drives a Honda Civic, plus I think the new ones are uglier than sin.

But I also don't want to be a guy who pays thousands of dollars more for a less-comfortable, less-practical "driver's car" that can't drive around a racetrack any faster than a Civic.

Any thoughts on the subject are appreciated!

You're a Civic guy. Embrace it.

You'd be stupid not to!! You already expressed a desire for the more practical and faster car, so buy it!

I'm pretty sure I did the opposite, i.e., I expressed a desire for the car that's less practical and slower and more expensive. :/

90% of your post is listing out all the pros of the civic and all the negatives of the 86. You know the choice you've already made. Go get a honda.

NIKE

I joined this board in the hopes that some 86/BRZ owners would sell me on the car that I actually want, i.e., make a case for the 86/BRZ.

If I were to try to make a case for it, I'd say the handling is better. But how can the handling be better if it's slower around a racetrack than a car with similar weight and power. I mean, you could argue that the handling is more predictable, but better? Hmm.

FWD Coupe or RWD sportscar. Put the right tires on the 86 and the Honda would not be victorious with the lap time. I DO like the SI but I like the 86 much more. I had a 996 GT3 and the FRS reminds me of it in many ways, power not being one of the things though

we don't convince people because far too often we've had posters come back and claim how much they think the 86/BRZ platform is just trash and that we're all too blind to see it...too many people have misconceptions about what role the twins best fill. It is a feel good very basic machine, nothing more.


The fact that you need convincing from a forum and you're worried about how fast & practical the 86 is are all red flags for a bad breakup one day. Practicality & speed, which the twins adequately have, were very low priorities for me. I loved how the twins look, I love the feel they provide, I prefer RWD dynamics and I personally like the "weak" engine as it allows me to bang it off the redline while staying legal.


The twins are very straightforward...if you had seat time, especially on the track (which is more than 95% of the posters who ask for opinions on their consideration) and if ya still couldn't decide whether it is right for you then I think it means move on...

It's not the handling. It's how it makes you feel. The feedback through the seat and steering wheel, the mechanical rawness. I don't know how an Si feels. Never driven one. But that's how the 86 makes me feel. It's just the delicacy and intuitiveness of all the inputs and responses that get me. The speed can always be addressed. But I feel like that purity can't be put into a car. It usually comes with it or it doesn't.

i don't know why you need ppl on internet tell you what car to get. get the civic, 86 is a terrible number game car. FWD also has the most predictable driving behavior so in ur book FWD will definitely be the best handling car.


* but if you gonna get a civic, why not just get a type R at MSRP, you just have to order and wait instead of picking one on their lot....

The handling issue is probably because the OEM tires on the twin are not up to par with the tires offered on most sports cars, or even a lot of sporty renditions of economy cars. I wouldn't be surprised to find out the civic runs a better tire. Swap out for a setup with a width and compound more representative of what you would expect on a sports car and they handle quite well. The downside of course is this isn't something you should have to spend extra money on after the fact.


As far as the Civic thing, the only comment I really have is you're stupid if you buy a new Si instead of an 8th gen, or an EP3, or an RSX, or an EG/EF hatch, or a CRX, or an S2000. There's probably more that I forgot. Those are all cheaper and they just don't make 'em like they used to, at least not in the fun department.

Hmm. Well, on the track I thought the car was pretty great. I wanted more power in the straights but I also liked how it rewards driving skill with more momentum.

That's basically what prompted me to test-drive an 86 to see how it is on public roads. Unfortunately the demo model they had at the dealership had the TRD exhaust and TRD suspension. I thought the cabin noise was unbearable and the ride was much too harsh. Hopefully due to the TRD "upgrades." At some point I will go find a stock model to test-drive. I also learned that there's a hole in the passenger footwell to let in engine noise, and I will try plugging that for my next drive.

I have to say I was also pretty disappointed with the acceleration during regular street driving. The way it's geared, 2nd gear is super useful on the track when you're coming out of a turn at 30-40 MPH, but if you're just turning at an intersection at normal speeds (10-15 MPH) then it feels pretty worthless. Actually I'm thinking about test-driving an automatic 86/BRZ next to see if it feels any different. Maybe I've been spoiled by BMW 6-cylinders, but my current car is only rated at 185 lb-ft and it's 500 lbs. heaver so I don't know why it feels like it pulls SO much harder in 2nd... (thoughts??)

Walking into the dealership to do this test-drive, I was 90% sure I was going to buy a new 86/BRZ, but after that horrible drive, I'm down to like 30%. That's what prompted me to start looking for alternatives, e.g., Civic Si. I really hope the stock 86/BRZ is much quieter and more comfortable.

Hmm. What got me onto this lap time thing was the recent issue of Car and Driver where they published all their lap times for the cars they've tested at VIR.

https://www.caranddriver.com/feature...istorical-data

The new Si seems to be much faster than the old ones and slightly faster than the S2000. The current Civic chassis (type R variant) also set the world-record for FWD at the Nurburgring a few months ago. Seems like Honda has made a pretty impressive car. Shame the exterior design seems to have been done by 6 year olds.

The ride is going to be harsh compared to most other cars. Thats part of how the chassis resets so quickly. Cabin noise is always high, that's how you get a modern rwd car to weigh in under 2800lb. You will still get plenty of engine noise with the hole plugged.

Differences in gearing and torque curves, and possibly cylinder configuration. 15-20 mph should be right at first torque peak, and 30 should be right in the dip so that's odd.

It's probably not much 'better' with 1" taller springs If you describe the drive as horrible on the street, then it's probably not the car for you.

Tire tech has certainly come a long way since 2006. That and the track has gotten faster over the years due to some modifications as I understand it. I'm sure Honda spends a lot of time and effort sorting out the Civic in various trims. It's in the high volume appliance market so any little edge over the competition pays off big time.

Yeah, hopefully I can get out and test drive a stock model in the next few weeks. Maybe you're right about the RWD configuration. I have a friend with a Mini which is ~2600 lbs. and its cabin is fairly quiet and the ride isn't too harsh and it seems pretty comparable to the BRZ on the track. But, FWD, so I don't know. I've also been in 400+ HP Porsches that are pretty quiet and comfortable but they're somewhat heavier and mid-engine so maybe also not very comparable.

Sounds like you want a street car. Civic si is a better street car IMO, or daily driver might be a better word

Ha!
I for one, encourage people not to buy or sell their 86/BRZ.
Buy the Civic. It's the better car for you and it is faster!

You'll use the Civic to its 100% potential every day.

Where as the BRZ/86 you'll hardly get to use it with out living on an autox course or track. And even then there are way better cars to buy than the BRZ/86 for that.

Just buy the Civic you'll never regret it. Don't even think about it just do it. Just get the nice performance package on the Civic.

I test drove both and there is no contest. I hated the clutch in SI. It was a quick test drive but I hated the SI. Its a great car, just not for me. There are other tangibles that when the right driving conditions and environment match up, it makes driving the twins so magical. Maybe as a compromise get a used 2016 brz with the bells and whistles and save the money for a few basic mods... Tune, Header, Exhaust(sounds plays a big role for me when driving on a canyon road) and tires. But as other have get the car that makes you happy. Its you that will haft to live with the decision.

exactly :thumbsup:

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KGBXNXdjcLo[/ame]

This post right here explains in detail why you don't need an 86. Move on.

This. The 86 isn't a numbers car, its a drivers car. If you want to get around a track as fast as possible for the least amount of money, there are certainly better cars. But if you want to have the most fun per dollar, the 86 is hard to beat.

Also, the 86 is RWD, so easy donut/powerslide/dorifto fun all day long. Not really much of a thing on the Civic.

You are not a candidate for an 86. Get the Civic.

without going overboard few basic mods will open up the car headers,tune,tires power and handling wise

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/GorgeousHo...restricted.gif

You're going to continue to be disappointed.

If you need convincing to buy an 86, it's the wrong car for you.

There was a time when my mk6 GTI was putting down faster laptimes than my FRS at one of the tracks I go to. I still knew which one I'd rather drive and it wasn't even close to be honest.

If you prefer the Civic, there's nothing wrong with that. Plenty of reasons to prefer it. Buy one and go be happy, you have our blessing.

Thanks for this comment, this was probably the one that speaks the most to me. I'm still ~30% on buying the car, which is pretty high, considering how many alternatives there are. I suppose if I did ultimately buy it, "I just like it" would have to be the justification. And I do like it. And I do really dislike the Civic. (Which isn't really fair to the Civic but god, why did they have to make the new ones so ugly. And there's nothing novel or interesting about driving a Honda Civic. I see probably 50-100 of the new ones just driving around town for 20 minutes.)

What I think may help is if you list what is important to you by priority, that may help you realize what you really want.

Speed and comfort are not the highlights. The 86 can't really compete with the practicality and easy quickness of the SI as well as the resale value.

The 86 is typically a vehicle that is purchased more on feeling and passion. I've been thinking of getting an SI for the wife but never once considered it for me, its just not my thing.

When your on backroads or just daily driving and safely get a little bit of tail out action, there is no civic that can give you that level of fun at normal speeds. If your the sort of person that doesn't appeal to then 86 probably isn't the vehicle for you. When I test drove an FRS for the first time I knew I was going to buy it right away. Its a feeling that is hard to describe but you know. If you don't get that then it may not be the right fit.

If your gonna get a civic as your main do all car, double down and go type-r.

Thanks for this video.

"I'm flooring it right now and the Sprinter van behind me is... keeping up??"

Yeah. As a driver, it seems important to me for a "driver's car" to show some urgency when you press the accelerator. Not to get owned by a newer Accord or Camry in a straight line. :/

The 86 chassis and shocks are going to be more solid (bounce you around) more than most other retail cars available.
It was purposely designed that way to keep the car attached to the road rather than floating around and being vaguely random with control inputs.

I knew that i needed the 86 before I test drove it. Not been disappointed.
On vacation I took it out on Point Reyes and I think the road conditions turned the milkshake I had for lunch into butter.
That's become my reference for rough road conditions.
Everything since has been smooth as glass comparatively.

I bought an '84 Civic S new for $7400 way back when. It was a nice car and did what I needed it to.
Wasn't really what I wanted, but the closest you could get in a light car then other than Miata. Those had unrealistic cargo space for a DD.

Are you open to used? Whats your budget? Another fun to dollars car is Fiesta ST...

Good point.

1. I'm single, no wife, no kids. I don't need or want a big car. Right now my old BMW 3-series feels too big and heavy for one person. I appreciate that I can drive around 2-3 passengers once in a while but I can live without that. I also like lower cars. So, small, low, and lightweight are priorities.

2. It will be my only car and my daily driver, so I need it to be practical to some degree. To me, that means a useful amount of storage space, and comfortable on longer road trips, i.e., a cabin that isn't too loud and a ride that isn't too harsh. (You might say "hey that's not a sports car" but I've been in sports cars that are pretty quiet and smooth, again, e.g., Porsche 911s seem pretty nice.)

3. Driving around town, I do like turning, accelerating, and braking harder than average. I figure, what's the point of getting a higher-performance car if you don't like doing that. So definitely I want the car to show some urgency when I hit the accelerator. When I mash the accelerator in my ~200 horsepower BMW that weighs 3200 lbs, it's a kick in the pants. When I mash the accelerator in a ~200 horsepower 86 that weighs 2700 lbs, it seems like almost nothing happens. I don't understand why not but it's disappointing. (Edit: Well, something does happen in the 86, namely, the cabin gets so loud that you have to pause the conversation you're having with your passenger.)

4. I want something that I can occasionally track and have it be fun. I haven't tracked my BMW because I'm sure it would be kinda stupid. The car is just too big and heavy. I'm sure it could do fairly well, but it would protest the entire way, and that's not fun to me.

So, cars I've been thinking about are ideally the 86 (seems like it satisfies most priorities and I like how they look), Civic (again, don't like how they look or how ubiquitous they are), GTI (don't want another German car though), and a Mini (yet another German car though). Edit: Also considering a WRX.

I've bought used all my life but end up spending a ton on maintenance, I think it would be nice (and maybe not that much more expensive) to buy a new car for once. Considering that I'm looking at the 86 and the Civic Si, my budget is centered around $25k MSRP. (That means no Civic Type R.) I know Fiestas get good reviews these days but I have had horrible experiences with Fords in the past and swore that I'd never do that again.

get a 370Z or a Mustang GT.

For your only car I'd get the Honda.

OT, but the modern 911 is a 3500 pound Grand Tourer. Nothing like my 1977 2400 pound 911.

No worries. The other thing that works against this car is you need to do things to it in order for it to come alive, *in my opinion*. The stock tires and exhaust need to go. I put a Corsa exhaust on mine (youtube that one) and the wail is just intoxicating. Theatrics - the car sounds faster. Sticky Michelin PSS helped. Stock tires are pathetic and scary. Lowering it improved looks (don't know about ride quality). And this car lives north of 5000 rpm. If you're cruising in 4th at 2000 rpm and you floor it (you shouldn't), nothing is gonna happen. If you're at 5000 rpm, the car is so responsive and lunges forward at the slightest throttle application. That's kind of what has to be understood about this car. The fun begins at 5000-6000 rpm. One of the most memorable drives I've had, surprisingly, was just driving on the highway at around 5000-6000 rpm, making my way through slower traffic in 4th and 5th. Exhaust screaming, car reacting instantly to the smallest inputs. I had a huge grin on my face. I still redline it daily on the on-ramps. Keep in mind, mine has a lot of suspension/transmission/diff bushings and inserts so I feel everything and the car roars. Definitely not quiet and not for those headache days. If you want a more subdued driving experience, try shifting at 1800-2000 rpm. It makes surprisingly quiet and smooth progress. I had an R56 Cooper S before this, and that car was just 2500-4500 rpm lol, that's it. The rest was boredom and empty space. So you got that boost rush that was short lived, whereas with this car you revel in the 7400 rpm crescendo.