Learning to use paddles better than an automatic
 

I bought an auto FR-S and I'm trying out the manual shift features. Obviously I can use the stick and paddles well enough to get myself from point A to point B, but I want to learn how to do it well, better than automatic mode if possible. As I have very limited experience with shifting (drove a stick just once, many years ago), I have a potpourri of questions.

1. Is it realistic that I could learn to shift better in manual mode than the automatic transmission would do on its own? What does "better" mean? (Yes, I'm asking a question about my question.) What does the automatic get wrong? The only thing I can think of is that it can't look ahead. Like if you're at the point where you would normally be upshifting but you're about to begin slowing down for a stop sign, you could avoid two unneeded shifts in manual mode.

2. What is the advantage of higher revs when you're not trying to accelerate? Like when tootling through town in sport mode vs normal, the revs seem too high in sport mode. Is that just so in case you suddenly need to accelerate, you don't need to downshift first? Seems a little wasteful if that's all it is. Should I keep the revs lower when tootling in manual mode, if I'm prepared to downshift when needed?

3. I hear people saying they love how when you're in D, the paddle shifters still work so you have downshifts at your fingertips. But even without paddle shifters, wouldn't you still have downshifts at your fingertips (well, at your foot) in D? I mean if you hit the gas, doesn't the automatic downshift? Seems like a pretty easy thing for it to figure out.

4. Say I turn onto a 45 mph road, accelerate, and reach 50 mph in 3rd gear. I'm done accelerating, so what now? Do I upshift 3 times as quickly as possible, to 6th gear? Do I upshift 3 times but pause for a bit in each gear? What does the automatic do (why is there no gear indicator in D)? Would you skip 2 gears in a manual?

5. If you want to accelerate faster than you did last time, you can give it more gas and/or hold lower gears longer. And those need to be coordinated somewhat, right? Like you wouldn't use super light throttle to slowly get to the redline in 1st gear. Nor would you get up to 6th gear at 35 mph and then floor it. But how do you find the precise balance, the perfect combination of throttle and revs? How would I know that I should have, say, given it 10% more throttle but upshifted 300 rpms sooner? Come to think of it, why is there no throttle indicator so you have some objective measure of how much gas you're giving it?

Hello Johnny Horsepower and welcome to our forum - :clap:

YIKES! what a first post - :)

Since I don't have an auto, I won't be able to address any of your questions - :(

However, I'm sure others will be along with some insight.

You may have to sift out several smart ass posts, to get to some decent information - :iono:


humfrz

Dude, don't waste you're time trying to play with the stick keep your hand at 9 and 3 and use the paddles and keep it in manual mode when you want to play with it. The computer sorts pretty much everything out so you don't need to worry about anything but I'll answer your questions anyway. You may be misinterpreting the purpose of manual mode, and you are totally over thinking the car


1. Is it realistic that I could learn to shift better in manual mode than the automatic transmission would do on its own? What does "better" mean? (Yes, I'm asking a question about my question.) What does the automatic get wrong? The only thing I can think of is that it can't look ahead. Like if you're at the point where you would normally be upshifting but you're about to begin slowing down for a stop sign, you could avoid two unneeded shifts in manual mode.



The automatic doesn't downshift like it does in manual and keep it in the powerband, even in sport mode it's not downshifting aggressively and utilizing engine braking like a manual would. It's only useful for non-economy driving, like driving through a curvy backroad etc. Or forcing it to stay in 2nd or 3 while drifting in a parking lot irresponsibly :lol:. You won't be avoiding un-needed shifts it's the most efficient to just keep it in auto and let it do it's thing when you aren't driving hard like the scenario you provided. The only advantage would be engine braking at a stop and just pulling the paddles while your still in auto to assist before hand. If you've driven a manual car before it'd be easier for this to be understood


2. What is the advantage of higher revs when you're not trying to accelerate? Like when tootling through town in sport mode vs normal, the revs seem too high in sport mode. Is that just so in case you suddenly need to accelerate, you don't need to downshift first? Seems a little wasteful if that's all it is. Should I keep the revs lower when tootling in manual mode, if I'm prepared to downshift when needed?

None if you're "tooting around town in sport mode". Seems pretty dumb to keep it in sport mode or manual mode if your just driving around time. If you're like me and have a header and axleback you're just being a **** holding the revs high and downshift and getting cracks and pops all over the place scaring people. Buy a manual if you want to be that involved...


3. I hear people saying they love how when you're in D, the paddle shifters still work so you have downshifts at your fingertips. But even without paddle shifters, wouldn't you still have downshifts at your fingertips (well, at your foot) in D? I mean if you hit the gas, doesn't the automatic downshift? Seems like a pretty easy thing for it to figure out.


Not as fast as the paddles, also it's really useful to grab down a gear to get engine braking for some situations or force it to a higher gear during a cool down session at auto x. You'll figure this out when you understand cars a bit better.


4. Say I turn onto a 45 mph road, accelerate, and reach 50 mph in 3rd gear. I'm done accelerating, so what now? Do I upshift 3 times as quickly as possible, to 6th gear? Do I upshift 3 times but pause for a bit in each gear? What does the automatic do (why is there no gear indicator in D)? Would you skip 2 gears in a manual?


The hell are you trying to do? I'll answer all these questions systematically
a. You're done accelerating why are you in manual mode in the first place? Just a straight goddamn line? Is there a corner coming up? Are you on a highway?
b.totally confusing me, you're pretending to drive a manual so you put it into it's highest gear? Keep it in auto mode for that'
c.d. Do not pause between gears on the auto it confuses the tcm and you get rougher slower shifts, there is a gear indicator in drive only when you hit the paddles you knob. Why else would you need to know what gear its in:bonk:
e. If I were driving a manual accelerating to 50 then holding it there I'd just leave it in 5th or 6th and let it cruise there all day saving gas.


5. If you want to accelerate faster than you did last time, you can give it more gas and/or hold lower gears longer. And those need to be coordinated somewhat, right? Like you wouldn't use super light throttle to slowly get to the redline in 1st gear. Nor would you get up to 6th gear at 35 mph and then floor it. But how do you find the precise balance, the perfect combination of throttle and revs? How would I know that I should have, say, given it 10% more throttle but upshifted 300 rpms sooner? Come to think of it, why is there no throttle indicator so you have some objective measure of how much gas you're giving it?

If your trying to launch it from a dead stop, manual mode, first gear, then just floor it, this isn't even a launch car anyway which is dumb to do in the first place. Grab the next gear as you reach redline, very little coordination. The auto stock launches very soft and weak as its stall converter rpm and gearing isn't suited for a dead launch, the manual is much better at that with a clutch dump. You can try modulating the throttle but it won't really assist much from a dead throttle the tires won't really lose grip on the stock auto from a launch unless your "brake boosting" it. You can set up the shift beep and light to tell you when to shift if you want, because I don't think you've driven many sports cars or know how a manual works :lol:


The only way for a to make a stock auto as fast as a manual frs would be getting a 4.67-4.88 final drive or higher, otherwise the auto maybe more of a momentum car than a manual in that respect

WOW - good job! - :thumbsup:


humfrz

FRSBRZGT86FAN pretty much has it covered there.

Simple version though:
Driving in full auto = better MPG
Driving in manual shift auto = more fun/control and slightly quicker

I just leave it in auto and then bump it down using the left paddle for on-ramps, freeway passing, annoying little hills, etc. It's a great compromise for a commuter car. In normal daily driving I find the auto to be smooth and relaxing. In "manual mode" I personally felt as if it was the worst of both worlds for normal city driving. The paddles are on the wheel after all. In mid-corners they're never where I left them.

1. Is it realistic that I could learn to shift better in manual mode than the automatic transmission would do on its own? What does "better" mean? (Yes, I'm asking a question about my question.) What does the automatic get wrong? The only thing I can think of is that it can't look ahead. Like if you're at the point where you would normally be upshifting but you're about to begin slowing down for a stop sign, you could avoid two unneeded shifts in manual mode.

Yes the biggest advantage is that you always know what you're doing next. An automatic can't read your mind. It doesn't know you're slowing down for a stop sign so it won't downshift and give you engine braking. It doesn't know when you're about to accelerate for a lane change or power out of a tight turn.

2. What is the advantage of higher revs when you're not trying to accelerate? Like when tootling through town in sport mode vs normal, the revs seem too high in sport mode. Is that just so in case you suddenly need to accelerate, you don't need to downshift first? Seems a little wasteful if that's all it is. Should I keep the revs lower when tootling in manual mode, if I'm prepared to downshift when needed?

If you're accelerating slowly upshift at low RPMs to save gas. If you suddenly need to accelerate, downshift as many gears as necessary.

3. I hear people saying they love how when you're in D, the paddle shifters still work so you have downshifts at your fingertips. But even without paddle shifters, wouldn't you still have downshifts at your fingertips (well, at your foot) in D? I mean if you hit the gas, doesn't the automatic downshift? Seems like a pretty easy thing for it to figure out.

Yes this a true but there is still a delay from when you first floor the gas pedal to when the car actually shifts. If you are in manual mode and you know you are about to punch it, you can put the car into its powerband before you punch it. The throttle response is instant. This can pretty useful when you're making lane changes and the gap is a bit tighter.

4. Say I turn onto a 45 mph road, accelerate, and reach 50 mph in 3rd gear. I'm done accelerating, so what now? Do I upshift 3 times as quickly as possible, to 6th gear? Do I upshift 3 times but pause for a bit in each gear? What does the automatic do (why is there no gear indicator in D)? Would you skip 2 gears in a manual?

Yup when I'm done accelerating I put it back into 6th asap for fuel economy. No need to pause in each gear

5. If you want to accelerate faster than you did last time, you can give it more gas and/or hold lower gears longer. And those need to be coordinated somewhat, right? Like you wouldn't use super light throttle to slowly get to the redline in 1st gear. Nor would you get up to 6th gear at 35 mph and then floor it. But how do you find the precise balance, the perfect combination of throttle and revs? How would I know that I should have, say, given it 10% more throttle but upshifted 300 rpms sooner? Come to think of it, why is there no throttle indicator so you have some objective measure of how much gas you're giving it?

This more or less true. But there is no precise balance, it is whatever you need. For example sometimes I find full throttle in 3rd gear at around 4000 RPM is just enough for me to make a pass in city traffic. If you floor it in an auto it would give you 2nd gear and be too fast. If you do half throttle the auto will probably put you in 4th and be too slow. Maybe 75% throttle in 2nd gear would work too but at 75% throttle, the auto may only give you 3rd gear. Manual means you can choose exactly whatever combo you want. But there would really be no reason for the extremes cases, like 5% throttle in 1st gear up to redline or full throttle in 6th gear at 1500 rpm.

TLDR;
The main advantage as I said earlier is you can always plan ahead, where as the automatic can't read your mind. You can downshift aggressively to high RPMs and then shift back up to 6th for fuel economy whenever you want. You can also choose anything in between. Manual mode pretty much lets you pick anywhere you want to be in the powerband right away. An auto will kind of try to do the same depending on pedal precision, but it will not be as fast or precise as manual mode or a manual transmission.

In auto the controller will usually coast when you let off the gas until you call for acceleration again, then figure out what gear is most appropriate.
You'll need to hit the brakes if you want to slow down.

In "manual" you can use engine braking to scrub off speed without putting more, or any heat into the disks, saving them for even more deceleration later.

When you have a known section of road or track, you can decide which single gear you want for that bit of it.
Use the engine to modulate accel or decel to match the corner conditions.

The auto would want to flip up a gear or two when you let off the gas.

I actually miss my AT '13. Ignore any "driver involvement" remarks.

Answer in bold above. A lot of this will just be driving the car and figuring it out through trial and error. Don't fixate on exact numbers like X% throttle or you need to be in this exact RPM range.

Glad you joined the forum and hope you enjoy learning to drive the car more.

Ignore any driver involvement remarks? Hahaha. So pushing buttons is just as involved as deciding what gear to downshift to at a given speed and then pushing a clutch, blipping the throttle, shifting a gear, letting a clutch out? Keep telling yourself that.

There's always one of you :iono:

technically one of "you" guys started it :popcorn:

Well - in some cases. Obviously not in ours. :D


https://futurism.com/wp-content/uplo...car-wheel1.jpg

We do have cruise control buttons though. :)

...and I still haven't learned to use mine. I've never had my BRZ on cruise control, lol.

Who knows. Every year our cars are adding more and more controls. Cruise control, radio, HVAC. I wouldn't mind a drink button myself.

I echo the 'Learn by feel" comment. You can also use the paddles in sport mode if you want. Take your time.

Just curious. On the auto lets say you come out of a 2nd gear turn and then run through 2nd and part of 3rd and then come up to a braking zone, when you first lift does the tranny instantly upshift to 4th until you get on the brakes or when you lift will it hold 3rd and start engine braking? I guess if your in manual mode it would hold the gear and if your on track you're always going to be in manual mode. Sometimes on the streets when in auto mode you can run into scenarios where you want engine braking rather than an upshift upshift. For example you try to overtake someone on the interstate so you downshift while popping into the other lane but then find out the traffic is slowing in the other lane so you lift. I wouldn't want it to upshift when I lift, I would want it to hold the gear and start engine braking while I am moving my foot to the brake. How does the AT handle this when in auto mode? For me this is where AT has typically annoyed me the most. That sensation of lifting but the car just wanting to keep going forward gives it a disconnected feeling.

When in Auto mode, the paddle shifters can be used to input up and down shifts. It will hold this override for an extended period of time.. somewhere between 10 and 20 seconds. The D indicator on the dash will change to gear number during this duration.

When in sport mode, the auto will try to hold the lowest gear it can without redlining.

So yes it will engine brake in between corners (in sportmode) as long as speed doesn't go above or below threshold of the gear.

Even for being an AT, the behavior was quite brilliantly programmed by Toyota.

You do know that "deciding what gear to downshift to" applies to the AT in manual as well, correct?

You never drove the AT, did you. It was very well done.

Odd, my AT never decided to change gear on its own in manual, other than to downshift at low speed to aboid lugging. It would stay in whatever gear I selected until I shifted.

I just mentioned it, the butthurt came form someone else. LOL at the clowns who sneer at and seem threatened by someone else who dares to have the same fun in an AT. I've driven and owned both, and I miss the AT for what it was. Odd that you never hear the AT crowd denigrate the MT crowd. Seems some MT drivers have something to prove!

Let the butthurt flow.

When in AT it will shift when determined by the TCU. So it might shift in the scenario or it might not. In SPORT mode it will hold gears (mostly) but even SPORT while in AT mode is not great for performance driving, mountain runs, etc. I usually use it on freeway trips where there are inclines and such to not put too much load on the engine if I feel lazy.

In MT mode it will engine brake since you control it. It only downshifts to avoid bogging in MT mode.

Drive one and tell us your thoughts.

Nowadays modern AT's are smart enough to hold gears as required during high G situations, most of them are programmed to 'learn' how the driver drives and adjust the gear changes accordingly. In the proper drive mode they hold gears...im not sure how long cuz I think it may think it needs to change after a certain amount of time though.

The ISF's 8 speed tranny i think was the first typical automatic transmission to succeed with such a characteristic. And being a Toyota product it eventually trickled down to the rest of the Toyota family (where applicable)

In any case the auto tranny in the twins is programmed really well. The most important thing IMO is actually the response time, not the shift time or the gear holding, and it really succeeds in this regard. I remember test driving an AT and flicking the paddles results in near instant response to gear changes. The car did need to be pushed to exhibit this as slower/cruising driving slowed the response and there would be a delay.

My X1 is the same way, the ZF 8 speed is pretty responsive. The only problem I have with it is that 8 speeds is too many for paddles. I actually don't find it all that much fun when I have to flick the paddle like 4 times to get into a gear I want...and even then I might get confused at what gear im in lol.

The temporary override he was referring to is when using the paddles in D, not in manual. Using the paddles to shift while in D will shift on demand but only stay in that driver-selected gear for a short time before resuming normal automatic shifting.

Ahh, thanks. Missed the "D" part.

In Manual mode you have full control, you could bounce off the limiter all day in each gear if you wanted to. If you start spam downshifting however it won't go to a gear that will over-rev and will wait a second till you drop speed and rpm.


In Sport mode you get that scenario where you gain engine braking rather than an upshift, more so with a tune. You can always grab the paddle out of manual mode before you come to a corner or scenario where you want engine braking and it will hold that gear.

No butthurt here. I also didn’t denigrate anyone. I just found it comical to suggest that there isn’t any extra driver involvement on a manual. It’s that extra involvement that some of us enjoy. But you are delusional if you think the AT crowed doesn’t ram the AT down our throat and throw insults about how we are ignorant for wanting outdated technology.

If I understand correctly you currently own an MT Twin but wish you still had the AT? If so, why? Convenience?

One of these days I need to out of curiosity. Can’t see myself jumping ship but just to see how smart it is. Regardless of how smart it is it’s always going to get it wrong from time to time which I suspect would get on my nerves quick. Sure there is manual mode but if your driving around in manual mode all the time then you may as well get a MT. In a perfect world it would be nice to have a true manual with three pedals that could be shifted automatically in those rare cases where you want to be lazy. The old BMW SMG was a true manual box that was driven automatically but didn’t have the third pedal or shifter for manual operation.

I can`t quote you for some reason @ermax

You should try one and make sure you drive it hard, preferably on a track, if you get a chance.

I'd like to hear your thoughts.

When you going to let me drive your car huh? :p

I was not aware the car was this "smart." The first time it did this, I was coming into a freeway loop fairly fast and cornering hard in sport mode, expecting it to upshift. It didn't and the roar at redline scared the hell out of me and the adjacent car.

I use Manual Mode now if I'm doing anything but crawling in traffic.

It is "smart". A few days ago, mine downshifted to help in aggressive braking while in Sport mode, It startled me! I almost never drive in sport mode though.

You can skip the AT. It's pretty boring to drive. First twin I test drove was an AT (all that was available) and i put the thought of owning a twin out of my mind for a couple years. The AT was not a great feeling and I thought the car was incredulously slow. Being paired to the AT didn't help the speed thing, but....it was not the car I thought it would be at first drive.

Same thing with a GTR, 488, Huracan, etc. Nothing beats a manual trans. Civic or Camry.

Anytime, kiddo :P

I have a friend who owned a GTR and got bored of it not having a MT. He has a BMW F80 now with MT.

Yeah, I'm really confused by your comments on this. Keeping it in normal auto mode all the time is a little boring. With a car like this, why not have a little fun, even outside the racetrack?

Well you don't need to know what gear it's in when in M either, do you? But I like to know, and I would like to know in D. Sometimes when in D I switch it to M and back just to see what gear it's in.

Yeah, I actually use the stick more often, it's just much easier to say or google "paddles" than "the stick for manual shift mode on an AT." I never try using the paddles when turning.

I don't think he said that. He said "Ignore any 'driver involvement' remarks," which I interpreted as "The extra driver involvement on a manual is overrated."

Maybe this changes with experience, but for a beginner, a MT is way the hell harder to shift than just flicking a stick or paddle.

Yeah, like the Back to the Future DeLorean. Not sure if we actually see Marty shift or it's just implied, but we definitely see the clutch pedal at one point, yet the Doc drives it via remote control. I think the FR-S semi-automatic transmission is about as close as we're going to get to that for a while.