Learning manual, stalled so many times
 

Just got a manual brz and I’m getting the hang of it, except for hills. Tried to get out of a parking structure which was underground and has a very steep hill. Stalled so many times before I got out (about 7 or 8, maybe even 10.). Should car be ok?? And how long did it take you guys before learning to go up a steep hill? At least I didn’t burn the clutch :( but just worried about the car.

I love my girlfriend, but man she was a horrible teacher. I was scared for the longest time when stopping just below a hill, like the traffic lights close to the base I was stationed at, but I think two weeks did it for me. She had never really explained that I could ride the clutch a second longer to make shit work, so I always let it out too soon. Man, good times.

Even if you're comfortable, practice starting out on level ground without any gas. It's a real skill builder. I guarantee it will help you on inclines.

I remember teaching someone who, for some reason, was under the false impression that once the car started moving he had to commit to full engagement.

Learn to modulate the clutch by itself to keep the car from stalling. That's the value in practicing a no-gas start.


I'm sure the car is fine. The clutch will get mushy on engagement when it gets too hot. It's the same as brake fade only different. :D

Many years ago when I got my license, I lived on a steep hill in a quiet residential neighborhood. I took my dad's MGB out and bucked that car up and down the hill for weeks before I felt comfortable with a hill start. Pretty soon all the neighborhood dogs and children would run when they heard me crank the car. I would practice for an hour, come back a few days later and practice for another hour, etc. It didn't help that the car had a racing engine in it that had to have the gas feathered constantly because it wouldn't idle.

You may not have a '74 MGB with a racing engine and a convenient hill outside your front door. But I told the story to illustrate that it just takes practice. Lots and lots of it.

If there's a hill nearby without much traffic where you can go practice without being under pressure from angry horns behind you, go practice. Then go practice some more. About the time you're feeling comfortable, you'll be in traffic somewhere, panic and stall out again because you'll be worried about the eyes on you from the other cars nearby. It will make you feel discouraged about your skills, but the only way to feel good about them again is to go practice again.

After you've been driving for a few years, there will come a day when you'll stall it in traffic again. People who have been driving for thirty years will stall out occasionally, and they usually say, "What the fuck was THAT? What is WRONG with me?"

Don't worry about the car. The clutch is designed to take the force of the engine and transmit it to the transmission and all the way to the rear wheels. It's not necessarily a gentle process. The clutch can take it.

And consider this: 82% of Americans already can't do what you can do. Only 18% can drive a manual, and that includes all the ones who can just barely drive it, but not very well. There are very few people in any kind of position to sit in judgment of your skills. So take the pressure off yourself, because you're already among the elite.

Not an expert, and it's flat as a pancake here, but if I'm ever on an incline I use the parking brake to keep car from rolling while I play with clutch and accelerator pedal. Don't know if that's how it's done, but it helps me. That or grow a third leg.

Nothing wrong with that. Let the haters hate.

So, you sure you don't mean that 82% of Americans don't own a manual? Or maybe it's that 82% of cars owned by Americans are auto? I find the provided statistic to be un-plausible based on knowing quite a few people over the age of 50 or so...


I find this to be the most effective solution when I need to get it up a hill. Also effective with speed humps and the like.

This isn't for everyone, but I've been able to help some people with this advice:

Keep your heel on the floor when letting the clutch out. You can use the friction with the carpet to modulate the clutch much more precisely than when your foot is hovering.

I must say... while the BRZ's clutch is light and almost effortless, it is rather difficult to control at first until you get used to it which lead to my opinion that it is not all that great as a first manual car. This is because there is almost no feedback from the clutch pedal. Plus there is a rather ambiguous yet very fine point between engagement and stalling, like the car would only begin to slightly creep forward in a way that makes you think you can let off the clutch justtttt a bit more... then suddenly, stalled. I also know that lack of feedback is due to some spring above the clutch pedal and you can mod (remove) it out but it is ridiculous as-is for a car that is supposed to be all about the "feel" and pleasure of driving.



I've driven quite a few manuals and for almost ten years now and I stalled quite frequently initially when I first bought the car. I haven't stalled this frequently in a car since I first learned how to drive stick. Everything is all good now but once a blue moon, I'll surprisingly stall. I am still figuring out the trick on how to smoothly shift into second.



Anyway, like others above are saying, learn no-gas clutch work. Build the muscle memory. Find a long flat road with little to no traffic and just get the car moving from letting off the clutch, stop, repeat. Do the same on an inclined driveway somewhere to practice hill starts.

My 17 has hill start assist, does the 15 not have it? If it does I would use that until your more comfortable with the clutch and gas dance.

Hill start is a new feature for 2017.

DON'T BRING THIS UP.

Also. Learn how to drive.:thumbup:

Folk's that "don't know" talk about the stick shift a lot, but it is learning the clutch part of a manual transmission that makes driving one a challenge and a reward.

I drove manual 25 years ago, after that Automatic, and a month ago, bought BRZ tS, I do have issues with slow start from stop, stalled 5 times in a month (good sign). Shifting from 1st to 2nd still jerks even with slow clutch release. I too got frustrated. I have to learn fast take off from stop sign or intersections - I don't want people honking at me. :mad0260:

'17 has a hill start assist but it's a major PITA. Just do it on your own: come to a stop on the hill and hold the foot brake, then pull the manual parking brake up. When you're ready to go, give it some gas, start to release the clutch and slowly let the hand brake down as the clutch bites. Eventually on smaller hills you won't need it, but on steep hills it's a great way to save your clutch. Worked like on charm on my 240Z in San Francisco...

You just need to keep practicing. You need to be quick with your feet and and have a good sense of the clutch sensitivity

As said by maroon, clutch only starts will build this skillset. To take off on an incline, you let out to near the friction point and add more gas than is needed. Yes, you slip the clutch a bit, but how often are you stopping and starting in the middle of Kilimanjaro? Just keep at it :) all good things take time, failures, and effort

stick?
 

Stick?

I practiced just now about 10 rounds on a two mile street. Somewhat jerking is reduced.

Steps I followed for changing gears: 1st to 2nd release clutch quickly and hold at biting (friction) point for a second (1,000 RPM drop), apply little gas, and release all the way out - same process for all other gears. What I was doing I think wrong by not applying little gas while releasing. I was thought to apply gas after releasing clutch all the way out.

Releasing clutch slowly drops RPM very fast, by releasing clutch faster to biting point helps a lot. I think within a month I should be able to drive smoothly.

Am I right or wrong, comments please.

You’re getting there. As I told you in the other thread where you asked about this “It’s more to do with properly synchronizing clutch/throttle inputs and less to do with how quickly you release the clutch pedal. The longer that you hold the clutch pedal, the more revs drop and the more you’ll need to apply the throttle to have a smooth shift. The “biting point” isn’t even something that should be felt except when starting from a standstill. Don’t overthink things, it will be second nature after a few months of driving.”

That's an okay idea but not fully developed. If you're gonna drop the clutch sooner, it means you have to apply the right amount of throttle sooner too. 1st to 2nd in this car is usually jerky anyways, so the RPM drop in those gears don't matter too much. Once you hit 3rd,4th and so on, you'll see how much easier it is: not necessarily because you're used to it, but just because of how it works in this car.

For now, focus on not stalling and getting used to changing gear and learning the muscle memory stuff. The smoothness of shifting will come later.

I watched this video and drove again as per Robbie - Watch from 10:38, it wasn't smooth. He just releases smoothly without even stopping at biting point. I am confused.

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=12GaIurTccc[/ame]

Nope.

The report from U.S. News and World Report show only 18 percent of U.S. drivers know how to operate a stick shift. It says that because of advancements in automatic transmissions and fuel economy, only about 5 percent of vehicles sold in the U.S. today come with a stick shift. That’s down from 25 percent of cars in 1987.

https://washington.cbslocal.com/2016...-drive-manual/

Always quote the actual source, not a re-report. Welcome to the age of clickbait and shoddy journalism.

https://cars.usnews.com/cars-trucks/...s-disappearing

Heck... I still stall it reversing in to the garage sometimes, and I've only owned one auto (for ~4 years) since '94 when I got my license finally. Prior to getting the license I would drive the tiny RWD Toyota pickup we had around the parking lot, just practicing starts.



It takes practice. I find being able to hear things helps me so I usually turn the music off now when I'm backing into the garage. And the tip about keeping your heel on the floor works, not because of friction, but because it isolates the large muscle groups (which don't have much finesse) and you only use small muscle groups (which do).

I tried. When I click that link, all I get is an "access denied" error. The numerous other stories that refer back to that article all just say 18%.

So eventually you want there to be no slipping of the clutch when changing gears. The only time you want to slip the clutch is when starting from a stop. If rpms still need to drop that's a really fast gear change and you'll feel the car lurch forward. Give it a bit of gas at the same time and you'll feel like a hero lol. If it bucks forward, the change was too slow.

You have a good start, try reducing the amount of slippage and focus on getting your timing right.

FYI, I still have bad shifts sometimes (usually at least 1 per drive) and I've been driving stick for 9 years now. I also need to slip clutch into gear occasionally if something surprises me mid shift requiring spending some time in neutral. Car's still running so it's fine on an occasional basis imo.

:iono:. Works on my machine.

18% is a more alarming number, hence better for clicky-clicky ady-ady

But there's absolutely no way it's 60%. US News had to have gotten that 18% number for the low end of the range from somewhere.

60% is probably about right if you count everyone alive in the US right now that's ever driven a manual competently. Probably drops a bit when you cut out people who can't drive anymore (or don't drive at all). Then you get a very large number of folks who haven't driven stick in 20+ years, though that includes my parents and they were both perfectly capable of driving my car first chance they got so I'd say it's a skill you don't really forget.

I'd put the actual percentage at 40-50 based on my experience with other people. Give it another 20-30 years and that probably drops dramatically, if we are even allowed to drive at all lol.

The 18 probably comes from a survey where the demographics of respondents were a bit biased. If you can find that survey results and method I'm sure we'd find out.

We have 1 MT PU truck at work. I'd say 30-40% of the people there can't drive it and won't even attempt it.

My experience has been different. I remember when I was a kid in the '70s that all my mom's friends in her tennis league were extremely impressed with the fact that she could drive her MG Midget, because none of them could drive stick. In high school it became a problem if I ever needed someone to shuttle my Triumph for some reason, because I was the only person who could drive it. I was on a film shoot in the '90s where the crew showed up to prep gear and load it into a 20 ton grip truck, and it fell to me to drive it because I was the only one there who could. When I went back to school ten years ago, the kids in one of my finance classes got into a conversation about cars one day, and not a single one of them could drive one. (Not a single one knew what an MG was, either. Which was sad.)

Everybody in my immediate family can. I came to accept early in life that most people can't. It wouldn't surprise me if the 18% estimate was actually too high.

18% sounds high. In my personal social circle that are heavily polluted with car enthusiast it's not even 40%. If I go off everyone I know it's probably less than 10%.

3 pages and nobody has recommended the OP some really thin flat sole shoes for an easier time learning how to work the clutch pedal.

These are what I wear these days to drive.

https://i2.wp.com/www.nicekicks.com/...?fit=750%2C400

Once you manage to comfortably daily commute with the car next is to learn how to rev match / heel and toe.

That's a good point. It's also one reason this isn't very good advice:

My footwear range includes sandals, tennis shoes, hard-sole leather dress shoes, hiking boots and steel-toed work boots for when I'm welding. It's not possible to drive the way Yoshoobaroo described with all those shoes. The hiking boots and work boots don't allow the ankle the range of motion to be able to do it. The flip flops can bend and catch on the floor or wall in odd ways if you don't pick up your foot.

It's silly to have to change your shoes just to be able to drive the car because you never learned how to lift your feet properly.

Additionally, if you learn to drive with your left foot improperly set on the floor, there are many cars you won't be able to drive because it's physically impossible to operate the clutch and brake without lifting your entire leg. Practically any manual pickup truck and most cars built before 1980 will be beyond your skills.

http://www.oldchevytrucks.com/images/shifter2.jpg
Oh no! My leg is so heavy! Can't. Lift. High. Enough.

Even many sports cars are designed with the expectation you will lift your leg to operate the clutch and brake, and even where it may be possible to be lazy and leave your foot on the floor, you risk ruining the clutch because you don't quite get it all the way disengaged without lifting your leg.

IMO leaving your heel on the floor is a training aid, to help isolate the muscles you should be using. Floor friction is wrong if you're actually using that.

I'll mostly pass by the stupidity of driving in flip flops...

Learning manual, stalled so many times
 

I use the heel toe technique. So with your toe on the brake use your heel to press the gas rather aggressively while rolling off the clutch and brake at the same time. When I was learning I did use the ebrake trick a little.

As someone else said, keep your heel planted to the floor and pivot your ankle and slide your foot back rather than lift your entire leg. It’s hard to accurately control your whole leg vs just your ankle. I just taught my 16 year old daughter to drive my car and she had a hell of a time doing it smoothly until I realized she was lifting her whole leg.

HEEL!

sorry :(

It's only hard if your leg muscles are atrophied. Get some exercise.

The muscles you should be using are higher up in your leg. Lazily leaving your foot on the floor doesn't develop them at all.

I live in Florida. Bite my ass.

I'll add:

You might notice that the brake and clutch pedals in practically any car you drive are designed differently from the gas pedal. Why is the gas pedal longer than the others? Why is the lever mounted lower, sometimes even mounted to the floor instead of the firewall?

The reason is that the gas pedal is designed to be used with your heel on the floor, whereas the brake and clutch are designed to be used with your leg lifted. In many cars the pedals lever in exactly the opposite direction for this reason. In cars where they aren't levered opposite, the gas pedal will pivot so that you can leave your heel on the floor. The brake and clutch are never hinged to pivot in this way.

So it's not just a matter of personal preference. If you leave your heel on the floor when using the brake or clutch, you're doing it wrong, because the pedals are simply not designed to be used that way.