NA Motor Can Handle 350 Crank HP?
 

EDIT: NA meaning STOCK INTERNALS

Specs:
2013 Scion FRS w/ 70k miles

Goal:
-Achieve 280-300 wheel horsepower without building or upgrading the motor
-Intentions of NO track time, spirited daily driving, racing every now and then
-Currently at 70k miles, would most likely install the kit at 80k miles... Need the car to be reliable and last at least 150k miles

Background:
-Working with my local tuning shop in Northern VA, PTuning
-Budget: 7-8k
-Cannot install myself, need to pay for labor

Questions:
1. Should I go Super Charger route or Turbo?
2.Turbo = PTuning, SC = Edelbrock?
3. Flex Fuel necessary for contribution of 350 crank?
4. UEL / EL Catless necessary for contribution of 350 crank? (Emissions is big in northern VA)
5. Will my car be able to withstand this up until 150k miles? Realistically, when would it blow?

This is common......

man you are going to blow the welds on the manifold

Are you for real? I'm a 20 year old noob, can't tell if you're kidding.

haha sorry didn't mean to pick on you. watch the first Fast N Furious

you must have edited your first post

So I'm looking to get 280-300 wheel horsepower. Is that optimal for stock internals or do I need to tone it down? Goal is speed and longevity. I want it to handle like a Porsche and have the power of a Mustang GT. Ofc it won't be as fast, but I want it to at least be faster than a 370z nismo stock since power to weight ratio.

NA Motor Can Handle 350 Crank HP?
 

Specs:
2013 Scion FRS w/ 70k miles

Goal:
-Achieve 280-300 wheel horsepower without building or upgrading the motor
-Intentions of NO track time, spirited daily driving, racing every now and then
-Currently at 70k miles, would most likely install the kit at 80k miles... Need the car to be reliable and last at least 150k miles

Background:
-Working with my local tuning shop in Northern VA, PTuning
-Budget: 7-8k
-Cannot install myself, need to pay for labor

Questions:
1. Should I go Super Charger route or Turbo?
2.Turbo = PTuning, SC = Edelbrock?
3. Flex Fuel necessary for contribution of 350 crank?
4. UEL / EL Catless necessary for contribution of 350 crank? (Emissions is big in northern VA)
5. Will my car be able to withstand this up until 150k miles? Realistically, when would it blow?

NA Motor Can Handle 350 Crank HP?
 

Specs:
2013 Scion FRS w/ 70k miles

Goal:
-Achieve 280-300 wheel horsepower without building or upgrading the motor
-Intentions of NO track time, spirited daily driving, racing every now and then
-Currently at 70k miles, would most likely install the kit at 80k miles... Need the car to be reliable and last at least 150k miles

Background:
-Working with my local tuning shop in Northern VA, PTuning
-Budget: 7-8k
-Cannot install myself, need to pay for labor

Questions:
1. Should I go Super Charger route or Turbo?
2.Turbo = PTuning, SC = Edelbrock?
3. Flex Fuel necessary for contribution of 350 crank?
4. UEL / EL Catless necessary for contribution of 350 crank? (Emissions is big in northern VA)
5. Will my car be able to withstand this up until 150k miles? Realistically, when would it blow?

I have no idea your original post said you wanted 180 - 200 wheel horsepower

Your local tuning shop puts out a great turbo kit. Go talk to them and they will guide you. You’re looking at 8-10k for everything since you’re not installing yourself.

I did talk to them. I discussed it with them in the shop today. They're asking for 11,000 with some other minor things. It is just not optimal for me to spend that much for a turbo. Plus I'd prefer naturally aspirated anyway. I just want to know if the FA20 stock internals can handle a supercharger that pushes 350 crank / 300 wheel.

In my view the answer is no, not reliably. Bent all 4 rods at 240 rwkw (320whp) after 7,000km.

It's a sh*!load of fun to drive though.

Just keep the torque below 250 wtq and you will be fine. And go SC with flex fuel.

Why did you post this exact same thing in three separate areas in here?

RIP to your transmission bro

Not another one of these threads:sigh:

Didn't need to post it all over the forum, the Forced induction forum would've and will help you . Someone already answered your question pretty well anyway. You have to sacrifice some reliability.....

Hello sxlx and welcome to our fine forum...:clap:

You may wish to reassess your goals of speed and longevity. It seems with this engine .. you should pick one.

This car will never be able to handle as well as a well driven Porsche, nor will this car (with the FA20 engine) be able to beat a higher end Mustang on the straights.

How about a relatively mild supercharger and a good set of tires .. :)


humfrz

Not to be an ahole but I have two cents on this. First, you said you prefer NA but you’re looking for a super charger, doesn’t make sense, sounds like you want a naturally aspirated engine with a super charger. Two, NA from what I’ve seen, I think with e85 you could get mid 200s wheel. As for FI, a ton of cars push 7-10 pounds of boost without issues, it really depends on the tune on how you treat the car imo, supporting mods, if it’s dogged/tracked, etc. I’ve also seen cars push 400+ wheel on stock internals and I am relatively certain a couple companies have pushed 500+ on 20+ pounds of boost on stock internals for a “relatively” long time. Really comes down to tune, you could run a car NA and blow it at 230 wheel with a bad tune and keep a car going for 20k miles with 350+ on boost with a good one as long as it’s treated properly. Regardless, 300 wheel seems more than reasonable, and I’d do some research on FI applications, tons on this site, but it will cost at least 8-10k, maybe a little less if you diy, no matter which way you go. Godspeed whatever you decide, and best of luck


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Ptuning is local to you, got to them for a turbo setup. If there's any issues, they are right there.

What's your set up now then?

Define relatively mild supercharger in horsepower. Rn I think my car has some Eagle Sports A/S (bought pre-owned) with good tread. So, initially I was about to sign to buy a 370z but I realized I like the 86 as a car way better. It's just this power that got me clinically depressed. I think I'm power hungry. I drove an STi and it felt slow to me. I felt when I was driving a Mustang GT it wasnt overly fast but wasn't slow.. It was like the perfect pass-a-retard speed here in VA.

What's more reliable? Supercharger or Turbo? I just daily drive my car and drive spiritedly. I pretty much shift pretty high RPM atm because of the lack of power. I never hold it at a high RPM for more than a couple seconds.. Also I'm looking to just make a little more power than a 370z. 370z comes 332 hp but weighs more than a 86. So I want to make 350 crank, aka 300 wheel. Also by NA, I meant stock internals.

My only thing is, if I go PTuning turbo for around 10 grand. I know it's meant for the car to blow at any moment.. The only thing holding me back is spending that 10 grand and having to order a NEW FA20 and do a motor swap.... etc. How much money would that be usually for a engine swap? (labor. Motor not included)

So which is it, NA or forced induction?

I think you just need to go to the shop with your $8K in cash, wave it around and say, "What will this get me?" Then just take what they install on your car and be happy with it since you won't know the difference anyway.

Oh, like an additional 90 plus whp.

Some easy reading:

https://www.drifted.com/frs-supercharger/


humfrz

I'm Australian based and proudly have a bunch of Australian designed and build aftermarket bits:
- I have a water to air intercooled turbo from Coyoda. Based on a GTX2863 turbo, bottom mount on cast iron headers
- MoTec ECU and Dash
- Holinger sequential dogbox
- e85 (with flex fuel)
- Bosch 1050cc port injectors
- all the supporting mods (bigger fuel pumps, clutch, oil coolers etc)

241rwkW on e85.

Just rebuilt the engine after the bent rods. Closed deck, Carillo rods and pistons, MLS gasket, studs, port and polish etc. Should get it back tomorrow with the new engine.

The car is daily driven with some track time. Now I have the stronger engine the big turbo will be the next upgrade (at a later date)

My understanding is that the rods are the weak link and low-end torque is the killer of rods.

It all depends on your definition of reliable. Plenty of cars our there on stock internals making similar power. But you only need a handful of failures to put a big hole in 'reliable'. I'd done my research, was well informed and was very confident my power goals on the small GTX2863 were inside the curve of 'safe' on the stock internals - but I was proven wrong.

If reliability/cost are a concern, you may want to stay away from f.i. and buy a faster car. Another option is to buy a used 86 with f.i. already installed. Definitely cheaper

if you double the output of your engine, its a time bomb, might do 200k, might do 20k...make sure you've got enough$ to replace the shortblock at minimum on standby.

Wait a sec here. No track but occasional racing? What kind of racing?

You know....Something something Mexico ;)

You bought a car designed around a 200hp NA 4 cylinder motor. With cost cutting measures. It's a good motor, but not overbuilt like a Supra 3.0L turbo motor. Don't expect it to ever be fast and reliable unless you're willing to spend, just doesn't make sense. Enjoy the car as it is, it's a hoot on back roads.

Don't launch the car on a stock engine with a turbo and you'll probably last a while provided your tune is conservative.

Here's my observation:

You want 350 hp at the crank, or around 300 wheel horsepower.

Is it reliable? Maybe. Many get to around 250-270whp and are great for years. Then you have your bros saying they push 400-500 just fine. That's like going to the gym as a scrony kid aspiring to lift 225 on your first deadlift when you can barely move 135. Can it be done? Maybe, but you'll regret it sooner if not later.

Is this platform worth modifying and changing? In my opinion, hell yes (but there are plenty of naysayers).

What I'm getting at is you need to understand the consequences of pushing an engine outside it's normal output by 150 hp. Then again, you're also comparing it to two totally different cars. The Z and the Mustang are V6/ V8 cars vs a boxer 4.

Former user name?

2013s were more commonly known for engine failures.

1) SC or turbo your choice. Turbo typically has more headroom for more power.

2) Considering your budget... the Ptuning kit is out of the question - though it is a very solid kit. You can also consider some cheaper kits such as JDL and SBD.

3) No. If I remember correctly, VA has 93 octane as premium fuel. You should be able to hit 350 crank easy. But why are you so adamant on trying to hit a certain power number? There's more to it than just a peak power number. Should also consider the area under the curve.

4) Most likely will have to go catless.

5) It's a guessing game. There is never a set time in which an engine will blow. Example: I had a k20 in an RSX blow at 90k with excellent maintenance all its life. While I see other K20s go for over 150k.

Slow down. Don't name a hp number, this isn't a heavy ass vehicle.

Take it 1 step at a time. If you don't want to throw $10k+ at the car right now, then you don't want to go forced induction, as that is what anything will cost at minimum.

First thing to do is talk to Ptuning realistically. They are good people, they've been tuning all sorts of cars forever.

The second thing is you need to realize you need to drive the 86 like you hate it. Rev the ever living crap out of it, as that is where all the power is.

I'd then take baby steps. e85, header, and tune are the first steps. Then drive it like that for a while.

Oh and issues. The engine can last to 250 but by 300 they are almost always timebombs. The transmission always chokes around 290 or sometimes a little more. There is a reason the people who crave big power almost always swap engines.

Listen, I don't ever post on the forums but what I have done is read, research, and learn from the very knowledgeable people on here. Obviously you don't know much given your statement of wanting an NA motor but then talking about forced induction, which is understandable. Everyone starts somewhere. But instead of being an asshat, do a little reading and research first, and people won't be on you for making statements and comments like the ones you've made.

You're saying you don't like turbo lag, but if you had done any research with a quick search in the forced induction section, you would know that the majority of turbo kits out there with the power output you're looking for have pretty linear power distribution albeit not as linear as superchargers. Plus for spirited driving, you should be in the upper rpm range and therefore be in boost anyways. Good luck with your motor, but it'll go at some point sooner or later. Even those with built motors have experienced failures.

Wow, just read the wife comment. Punk. Love the internet - I imagine in real life, perhaps at a bar, he'd have his tail between his legs, nursing a busted nose after that comment.

Oh, I doubt it - I figure in real life, he wouldn't have guts enough to make a comment like that .. :D


humfrz