Staggering 9" rear, 8" front handling experience?
 

Did a track day last week and found with the extra power of the supercharger I might not be accelerating out of the turns as I could.

Since my PSS tires were kinda done, just ordered 225's for the front 8"W wheels and ordered same wheel as I have in front in 9'W and 245 Michelin PSS for the rear.

So 225/45-17 front and 245/40-17 rear both with -35 offset.

Anyone with a similar setup that would advise against the staggered 1" difference front to rear for handling?

Suffice it to say currently the car rotates a ton so slightly taming it is still OK with me. I can change the order and go 245 square but not crazy about the look in the front with too much poke for a sleeper car. And don't want to change the steering feel.

My $0.02


I have used this stagger in 17 and 18 for street. 225/45/17 +245/40/17. 225/40/18 + 245/35/18. Both sizes MPSS.

I have no understeer on the street. Anyway, I had 4 square set ups before going staggered. So, for those that think it "ruins" the car. It does not.

-1.5 front camber & -2.0 rear camber.

I had 245/35/18 all around. 225 front has better steering feel, IMO.

:cheers:

I am hoping the extra traction exiting corners will outweigh any under steer in terms of smooth transition. Even on Ohlins MP20 6K all around this car still likes to rotate the ass. Hopefully i can adjust my driving style for a smoother in and out of corners.

With my supercharger, the ass is a bit surly in 3rd and 4th so staggering should keep it better planted during hard acceleration.

InB4 tire width Nazi's make their presence felt.

Most people run square even boosted. I have seen a couple guys on staggered setups boosted at the track, one with the same sizes you are running but in RE71R's and he was one of the quicker intermediates.

You already have the setup so run it.

Tire width populist here.... He's got 225's in front, so that's not a width issue -- and it does provide better handling as has been said. He's got a supercharger, so as I've said before, having slightly wider tires in back makes sense with added power, but not with an NA engine and good tires. I didn't want to disappoint you..... You may like the look of wide tires on this car, but it does not improve performance with the possible exception of autocross.

By the way, I also like the aggressive look of wide tires on a car -- I grew up with muscle cars. But I'm not going to try to justify it by saying it performs better. That said, wider tires (245's) with a 35 offset and lowered 1" LOOKS absolutely fantastic on this car IMO. What I'd like to hear from is someone with a turbo who has really good 225's all around on this car. A staggered setup makes theoretical sense with a turbo, but only testing the alternative on a track and measuring times can tell you what is best.

I’m surprised to hear that with a staggered setup and less camber in the front than the rear, you don’t have any understeer. My current alignment settings are:

Front:

• Camber: -2.5°
• Caster: 6.5°
• Toe: 0

Rear:

• Camber: -2°
• Toe: 0°

I’m on Maxxis RC-1s and have a lot of mechanical grip, but I wasn’t able to dial out mild understeer until I got to -2.5° of camber in the front. Strange...

As a follow up to my last comments, I do like the way the staggered setup looks, though - I’m just surprised it doesn’t kill the balance of the car.

So far sounds like the approval ratings are decent...

You did a track day with MPSS?
I see your problem.

I was thinking the same thing about spring rate with that tire. My Conti's understeer a bit on turn in since I went coils. With my RS3's they feel fine.

How's the grip in a straight line?

If you're not breaking traction in a straight line, you'll need to shift the grip balance at track out to the rear. One option before changing wheels is the MCS traction mod. It reduces the anti-squat a bit to get more bite in the back end at exit, but won't really change turn in.

If you are breaking traction in a straight line then you'll need more tire in the rear. Whether you go staggered or square will depend on how you want the balance to be.

Also, since the option isnt discussed here. You could have stagerred tire sizes on same wheel size (225 front 245 rear on 9" wheel for example).

Im not trying to judge anyone or anything here, but what you may perceive like a lot of rotation might just be power over, which once you harness the power (either by throtle control, stickier rubber, or wider rubber), might turn into an understeer nightmare. A square wheel setup will open more options once that happens.

Just something to consider.

I so want to stagger. I think it would be better with the increase of power.

I bought wider because I initially intended to autoX the car. You also keep saying a wider tire does not have more performance when it does. It is just that the performance(more lateral grip) does not equal an improved lap time. BTW that boosted car with staggered wheels and RE71R's spent the day behind my overtired mostly stock na car.

Turning to staggered setup though seems to me like modifying car to workaround wrong style of driving. Imho right approach would be to adjust one's driving inputs for car to go as wished instead of modding it. Learning car/throttle control instead of offsetting wrong driving with wrong tuning for them to cancel out. To not loose grip when accelerating out of corners one should be easy on gradually opening throttle to go proportionally to straightening front wheels and letting weight shift to rear. One can also choose late apex race line for more acceleration sooner out of corner and faster exit speeds.
Yes, one can mod car to point for rear to hardly loose any traction even if flooring throttle at wrong times to wrong extent. But should one and will it make car/driver faster overall, as far as track driving is considered?

My engine is stock (drop in K&N barely counts for anything). I have eibach pro kit springs and camber bolts.


My car drives great. I also clearly stated that I use mine on the street with MPSS tires. MPSS, are generally considered good/great for street. But are also not what track guys are running. Not to mention my suspension or transmission.


Every choice is a compromise. I made a compromise that suits my style of driving.


I used to own a S2000. It was a better track car. Which compromised its regular life functionality. No room.


Anyway for the FRS/BRZ/GT86. I think a stiffer suspension mixed with a larger difference in front and rear tire width could be what people are talking about "killing" the balance.

The tires slip in 3rd and especially. There is no doubt I am losing grip in the rear with the power. Not a fan of making the steering heavier, hence the reason for a small (20mm) stagger. Initially was unsure but now feel more confident on the decision. Since the car is my daily in spring and summer, I do launch it from time to time. I'd like to d track time every year a few times, and obviously don't want an understeer monster.

My car is by far mostly for street and I too use MPSS. Best tire in the rain ever! The argument is they are costly, but a few hundred vs good outcome is a no-brainer for me. The other reason for the stagger is when I am street driving and feel like flexing my muscles a bit with a quick launch (not street racing), it would be nice if the spinning wheels=acceleration, not fishtailing. After all, why did i install a supercharger unless i am looking to extract an much power as i can while being practical.


After all, my twin IS a sleeper.

If you have the same driver in a non-autocross car with optimal tires (in this case 215's to 225's square) compared with the wider tires, the optimal tires should win every time. There are a lot of poor drivers with turbos so I'm not sure the fact that the boosted car was behind you says anything. You're obviously the better driver. When I was in the Porsche club, there were instructors who could obliterate my times with my car. You were obviously the better driver. Probably a hell of a lot better than me. I tracked cars to learn about modifications like wheels and tires, not to win events. I did a lot of experimentation and that's how I got my jollies. That was when I was younger. I bought the BRZ to just have a fun car on the road. I don't really plan to do hardly any mods on the car except for tires, and perhaps brake pads. And maybe upgrade the audio. I took the advice of many of you and dumped my new Primacy HP's in favor of PS4S's, and I'm glad I did. (By the way, those almost new Primacy HP's are for sale cheap if anyone wants them in Vegas). There is also a psychological effect that haunts all of us (including me), i.e., when you think you have a hotter car/setup, you drive it more aggressively. We all deny this effect, but it's been proven to me several times that it exists....

Listen, if you like the way your car drives/looks, then that is the most important factor. That said, I think it's important to have these types of discussions on forums so people without experience know what to look for. If you go to the Wheels/Tires technical area, virtually all discussions are about what fits and not what it does to this car. Enjoy your car. It sounds like your a pretty good driver....

no twin is a sleeper. It is not possible.

Black with matte black wheels and a tint with Five Axis kit and 20mm lower than stock. Only visual sign of more hp is the intercooler which is the width of the entire front grill (not a stock HKS intercooler). Most people would not know or see that and automatically think, "Meh, 200 HP" and proceed to out-accelerate me. If I see a tricked out car beside me I always like to look and see and occasionally I can exercise my "sleeper rights". Funny enough have never encountered another twin doing a blast on more than stock power on the street, though I know there are fast ones out there. There was a cost is no object BRZ at the track last week that also had an HKS S/C as it turned out. That think had a Voltex wing, so hardly sleeper.

it is still a sports car. Everyone is going to notice it. Most people are stunned when you tell them it has no power.

I sleep in mine. My thermarest fits nicely with the seat folded down. I have a small cooler that fits behind the front seat and holds it forward. And it is the same height as the seat folded down. I can make a 40" x 80" bed.

Good to know if one finds one self homeless. Just park it by the river. lol

Done btw. I will update my impression after Mon May 21 DDT.

First I'll just say that the effects of stagger are often HUGELY overstated... 225/245 vs. 225/225 or 245/245 just isn't that big a deal.

I don't think 245/40-17 fronts with some negative camber should make the steering much if any heavier vs. 225/45-17. The weight difference between those two sizes is somewhere between 0 and 1 lb. for most tires. And the 245/40s have shorter sidewalls which would give slightly more mechanical advantage at the steering wheel. Personally I just went with 245 all around for my car. Running time trials at the track this Saturday.

I guess it's a little late, but tire choice is your problem, not tire size. MPSS are hugely overrated. I tried them on my 6.8 liter 550hp FD for the street, and initially they were OK, but after 18 months they lost all grip. To the extent that I could get wheelspin in a straight line in 3rd gear at 75mph. And the car would instantly go dead sideways, no lateral grip whatsoever once traction was lost. So I went to RE71Rs for my street tires. HUGELY better at putting power down, and also maintained some usable lateral grip even with wheelspin. Way way WAY better than MPSS for driveability. But I wound up running them at the track and couldn't put the power down out of 2nd gear corners. So ultimately I went to NT01s, which for me, for that car, was the best street/track tire compromise. They actually make pretty good street tires if you avoid standing water...

Square will still be faster than staggered until you're into mad power and super wide wheels/tires. Breaking and turning will be better, and overall car balance. Acceleration will be faster with more rear tire and even less front... There's a reason that's the popular drag setup.

There will be stages where a mildly pushy car will be faster for most drivers still polishing their chops. I'm there right now, but dialed that in with suspension...

C

Interesting how most high end sports cars come staggered.

Have some decent negative camber in front now. I don't feel a huge difference so far on the street. It does seem to get the power down better !

not really. You throw 500+ hp at a car all through the rear wheels and you need those massive rear tires. Also when it is engineered by the manufacturer they have the ability, time, and money to factor it into the suspension to get the handling exactly where they want.

We are talking about normal people without nearly unlimited r&d budgets. And we are also talking generalities. For most people in this car, staggering will be worse for handling.

why?: actually not for most. Most people never go to track, only commute daily on public roads very far from grip limit. Most often drive car stock. So for most it in most cases wouldn't matter much :). Yes, staggered understeer bias may also show up it's ugliness not only when pushing at track, but also when there is lack of grip, like on snow/ice/gravel .. but then again, most of the time, most owners will drive it on dry tarmac.
Of course for driving enthusiasts that may have chosen this car for it's handling and among whose hobbies is also track driving, it's different story, and it seems sacrilege to f*ck up such great drivers car .. but they are not average Joes making up majority, for whom arguable looks or moding in line of their misconceptions how they mistakenly thinking that will improve performance, matters more.
If one doesn't drive nowhere near loosing grip, then it doesn't matter if car is understeer/neutral or oversteer biased unlike for those that do drive at limits. What is wrong in my eyes though, is when guys doing only daily driving or whose driving on track means point and shoot with flooring throttle, advise such mis-setups for ones that may care about handling & control. Or that overdoing something excessive became cool for some.

I care about the handling, it is the most important aspect of this car! But, it is a tuner car and some will make mistakes since we are all free to choose the combination of aftermarket mods. Of course the team at one of the high end sports cars companies will usually know better than a first timer or a casual hobbiest what is a well thought out combination. As long as they keep it safe and don't do anything that endangers anyone.

My 20mm difference in tread width front to rear is a decision made understanding the compromises. I might lose a bit of the amazing control this car has at it's adhesion limit. Took a gamble.

Will report back after May 21 at Mosport DDT.

If you have adjustable sway bars you could always tweak the handling balance that way if you find you are getting a bit of push.

Added front camber will affect handling balance more than modest tire stagger. -2 or more front camber will hugely benefit front lateral grip vs nearly-zero stock camber. 245 or 255 rears add lateral grip at the rear of the car. Boom, you've added lateral grip to both the front and the rear without resorting to wider and heavier wheels and tires at the steered end of the car.

Even with no other changes, going to 225/245 stagger is just not that huge a deal. It's not like you're losing front grip relative to 225/225.

I've run everything from 255/265 to 235/275 on the FD at the track, and disconnecting/reconnecting the stock rear sway bar was enough to keep handling balance where I needed it. This was a pretty modest change suspension change, considering the car is on springs about 3x stiffer than stock and has a massive front sway bar, the coat-hanger-wire stock rear bar isn't that huge a player...

Yea but those people don't matter. If they are doing it just for show then they probably aren't ever going to drive it hard anyways.

It is just more important to me to highlight what you mentioned, and say that for performance driving odds are it will screw up handling.

Until people get to the point where they actually know what they are doing, like the op seems to do. Then trial and error type stuff can be beneficial to all of us.

well toyota runs their 86 in NBR races with slightly staggered setup & all the super special edition that they sell in japan too.......so.......


obviously if you know what you are doing, go ahead.

The 18" TRD wheels are staggered too, but only by 1/2" (7" in front, 7.5" in rear). Having said that, I couldn't find what tire they recommend, but wouldn't you just use the same size tire on both 7" and 7.5" wheels? What's the point of staggering?

Well that's US TRD so we all have zero clues :lol:

But on like 86 GRMN they run 215/40R17 x7.5 front & 235/40R17 X8.5 in the rear. But the car has a race prep FA20 making 220hp along with higher redline, tuned suspension with various chassis reinforcement throughout the body.

The price is enough for you to get a 2J quad turbo twins thou......lol

https://toyotagazooracing.com/pages/grmn/86/#!/

on the newer & cheaper version GR86, it's 215/45/R17 x7.5 235/45/R17 X8.5. This one actually isn't that much different from road going version....so it's a lot money for toyota blings.

https://toyotagazooracing.com/jp/gr/gr86

The TRD setup in the US is 215 front 225 rear. I have the setup; however I am changing to lighter wheels and 215 square next tire change... Only driveline mods are TRD airbox and 4.56 rear gears. In 20,000 miles of spirited driving my MPSS fronts have 80% left and my rears are at the wear bars. Going to square 17x7.5 inch wheels for the ability of rotating tires - going lighter too, but I really don't know if that will matter. I should be dropping over 6lbs/corner (hint: the cast TRD wheels are not light!) I was thinking of going 225 all around, but those tires at 5 lbs heavier than 215s with the new PS4. I don't know if I will really notice the difference, but if nothing else it should improve braking distance!

It was time to order tires. I have been using 225/40 & 245/35 MPSS on my 18x8 & 18x9. Decided to try a different tire this time based on my budget, reviews, and the fact that it is about to be summer. They cost 1/3 less than the Michelins.


215/40/18 Hankook v12 evo 2 Tread width 7.4"
245/35/18 Hankook v12 evo 2 Tread width 8.4"





The tires will have the same diameter now, and If tirerack is accurate, they are crazy lightweight @ 19lbs and 22lbs. Aesthetically, the stretch should look the same now on each wheel too.


I am adding a second set of camber bolts in the front to make my camber -2 all around. Review to come soon. I have to install an ignition coil before I start driving my car again though.....