Does electronic aids help or ...
 

Hi,

Just want to get some opinions.

Was taking a left corner on my BRZ when the car suddenly steer more towards left in a 'floating manner'.
(i suppose the torque vectoring kicks in). Est 60m/hr wet surface.
I have to immediately steer right to prevent hitting the car on the left lane.
And when it steer too much to the right, i have to counter steer and reduce gas to finally straighten the car.

Been driving for 20+yrs on traditional car w/o electronic aids.
Any under/over steers, i must have sub-consciously corrected them in the past :)
Being alive is testimonial to this as i do drive spiritedly though i wouldnt consider myself a highly aggressive driver.

I have seen quite a few accident online which have 'similar' signature (bouncing left/right) prior the crash.
The most common comments from denizen is how bad the driver is.
I was thinking its the electronic that somehow surprises the driver,
with the driver trying hard to 'correct or over-correct' the unexpected steering, which resulted in the sorry state.

In summary, is the electronic helping,
esp for experience driver with limited exposure to electronic ?

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EivFh-URPlM"]Original footage. Singapore Lexus LFA Crash - YouTube[/ame]

How much of your driving is in a real wheel drive car?

That "bouncing left right" manner is known as a tank slapper and has existed since cars were invented. Heck, even my cat does it on tile floors.

While I do agree in certain situations nannies can be a hindrance, what you are describing is not that.

No matter how much electronics help, it can't do jack crap once tires loose grip.
That video example is just driver error. Panic set in after a failed attempt to drift or aka the Scandinavian flick. Also he just didn't have enough road.

He didn't flick it. It was a straight road. He just couldn't handle to power. Wheel spin and he shit the bed. :brokenheart:

The ESP/VSC usually kicks in way faster than you even start to correct the steering. There were times (i.e. black ice or overly wet situations with ice tires) where the car was starting to drift out of line to the point the electronics can no longer save the car, and that's when I will apply corrective steering to save it myself.

The only time the electronics would kick in as a surprise would be for example mid corner, the ESP/VSC cuts power and causes mild understeer.

Are you on stock tires? What mode was VSC/TC in?

Regards to the driver of the LFA, what a loser!

People who have access to large amounts of money do not necessarily have the intelligence of whomever actually acquired the money to begin with.

I didn't see any wheel spin due to power. The road had a long curve up ahead. Thus my idea oh him trying to drift

The only time I've experienced the electronic aids making things worse is when I was WAY past control of the car already and it shifted the weight just enough...

I've had occasions where the car unexpectedly loses traction (in the rain taking a turn) and, while they're intrusive/annoying, I have found them to be decent.

I agree with the suggestion above that something else is happening here, and it's not the electronic nannies at all.

Does electronic aids help or ...
 

I have to agree that after many many years of driving RWD cars without aids the VSC feels odd to me. I will sense something out of sorts and the VSC reacts way faster than I do but my brain has already started processing what is needed to correct and by the time my body reacts it’s too late and the car has already solved the problem and I actually just create a new problem. The fix for me is to turn off the aids every time I jump in the car with the exception of rain, at least until I get tires that aren’t death traps. I’ve never had problems for n the rain although I’ve run nothing but ultra high performance romance tires since 1996. The car I got came with some 600tw trash.

As for the LFA in the video it seems cut and dry to me that it snapped on a shift. Listen closely. I don’t think he was trying to drift. Probably had the aids off and didn’t expect it to snap and overreacted.

I agree. Youtube is filled with these things. Too much torque, the tires lose grip, car drifts, inexperienced driver overreacts and trouble ensues, unless there is plenty of space. I mean if the BRZ with a measly 151 torque can spin, imagine double that or even more torque. Recipe for disaster with inexperienced drivers.

You hydroplaned. Electronic aids can't help that, but you slowed down enough that you got grip again and saved it. I don't think this car does torque vectoring, it has a TORSEN diff.

IMHO electronic aids are awesome and save accidents every day. The TC and SC on this car is excellent and not rough or intrusive. I had a GenCoupe that had awful SC and TC that would make the car buck. The FRS is subtle and a few times has saved me from myself.

electronic aids help. Just go look at the first couple of months this car was out, every accident thread was about some moron who had never driven rear wheel drive and the first thing they did was turn off all the aids and 5 minutes later wrecked the car.

I’ve owned S2000 which had much shorter wheelbase and no traction or stability control. The main issue was in wet-wet conditions and especially with somewhat used tires. I never spun but had a few fishtail events like the first post except didn’t lose control, but got my attention and usually I’d drive like a granny in a Prius in those conditions.

With the BRZ main complaint is the traction control which can cut power on fast up shifts on broken roads maybe not pristine roads. It’s not bad but it’s not great, also I had one episode where I made a low speed sharp right in second gear too quick and instead of going into any oversteer it just killed the slip/engine power. It was kind of meh and I’d think that was too intrusive heavy handed but otherwise it’s been fine. I don’t really drive like a madman in the rain but I can feel it is a lot more composed than my S2000. I’m in a tS with the good tires so can’t say what it’s like on Primacy rubber although on test drives with used Primacy, I did notice more intervention even on dry pavements while taking a quick acceleration turn but could have been worn rubber as well as the tire compound. I’d strongly recommend sticky tires for the BRZ.

I never turn off the aid but maybe we drive differently because I hardly ever get any intervention with the exception of me taking a turn while under power which was probably me over doing it. Also the most times I’ve felt was 1-2 shift on poor road surface, but this was like one half second hesitation and I’m not sure if the alternative of loosing grip is any better than cutting power.

I strongly recommend the Pilot Sport 4 tires which are dynamite and I think cure a lot of ills the BRZ may have.

Does electronic aids help or ...
 

Spinning the tires from 1-2 is WAY faster than the TC kicking in. For sure we must drive different. The aids kick in constantly for me. But then again I’ve got crap tires right now. I’ve used several sets of Dunlop Star Specs in the past but I think I’m going to give the Falken RT615+ a shot. Reading on the LeMons24 and Chump Car forums people seem to be impressed with the balance of grip:wear on the 615+. They aren’t equal to the grip of a RE71R but you get way better wear. I don’t think the performance of the PS4 will do the trick for me. Every time I drop to a Max Perf category tire I regret it.

The BRZ doesn't have torque vectoring. And is better off for it.

The torque vectoring in the wife's Impreza is well done and I am a fan. That is in a AWD hatch though. Would not want in a RWD coupe.

Hey Guys...
Thanks for all the inputs :thumbup:

Regards to my "floating manner" experience,
looks like hydroplaning is the most likely cause.
(Both times it happen, i was on wet surface)

Yep, i'm on the infamous Prius tyre.
I'm considering to change to Mic PS4/Falken 452,
If i am only changing 2pc for a start, should the new tyre go to the front or rear ?
Will it be too much for the stock rim if i go for 225 width tyre ?
Understand 7J rim accept 205-215 tyre.

Regards to the absence of the Torque Vectoring on the twins,
iirc, the electronic will help you 'steer'.
I suppose the electronic do that by vectoring the torque btw the Rear/Right & Rear/Left wheel ?
Or it will only brake the Front wheels to achieve that ?


Cheers !!

It uses the brakes at all four corners to do this. The diff itself does not have the ability to direct torque apart from the standard diff-stuff it does.

Does electronic aids help or ...
 

I run 225/45R17 on my IS300 which also has a 7in rim and it’s just fine. As for which place to put the new tires, although not as fun I’d put the ones with the most grip on the rear. The car is already tail happy, no need to make it even more tail happy. I had a set of Dunlop Z2 all the way around my IS300 once and then need to replace two so I ended up with two Z2 Star Spec on the front. I didn’t expect the Z2SS to have that much more grip than the Z2. The car was really tail happy but I left it as is and just drove appropriately. Not sure I would recommend this to a stranger though.

As for the VSC. Although intrusive it does a damn good job. I leave it on in the rain and it’s saved me a few times when these crap tires let go even when driving like my grandmother.

That's clear :thumbup:

Exactly. And if the VSC light isn't flashing at you in the middle of the dash the system isn't activating at all.

The aids can be annoying if you're driving hard intentionally (the fake "torque vectoring" using brakes is the one I usually notice if I'm cornering hard on a bumpy surface... it seems to be a bit more aggressive about interventions than it needs to be), but they're not gonna wreck your car. Leave them on. Sport mode is fine for everyday driving. If you leave everything on, sometimes the computer doesn't like accelerating into a turn from a stop sign or junction when there's any kind of loose surface (bit of gravel on road, dust pile, etc), but sport mode is enough to stop those annoying interferences.

Also if you live somewhere with rain, get the fuck off the Prius tyres. They're fine on dry roads but driving in rain with them-- even with plenty of tread left-- is like driving on snow.

In the LFA video, I notice the road surface changes from asphalt to concrete right before/as he spins out. Does the surface change or slight lip from one surface to another have anything to do with what happened?

Didn't notice that before. Seems reasonable to me. From the sound of it the car shifted and snapped and then he dumped the throttle causing the rears to unload making the situation even worse. If he just stayed in it he probably would have been fine. Also, is it just me or those tires screaming a lot for performance tires? Maybe someone replaced the original tires with junk. I'm not even sure what the OEM tires are on the LFA.

Okay so the LFA came with S001's. Seems kind of under tired for that car.

Hard to say exactly what happened, or what the cause of the crash was, but one things for sure: he should not have been driving/accelerating like that on a crowded public road.

On numerous occasions the electronic aids have prevented me from losing the back end, mostly during times of slippery/icy road conditions on the highway where I deliberately (and indeliberately) try to accelerate too fast.

In my 1st or 2nd year of ownership, I met a freak snowstorm on the highway (while running the prius tires). I had the electronic aids off and lost control before I even had the chance to react - ended up in the ditch. It was a stupid thing to have the aids off in those conditions and will never do it again.

On the other hand, when I had the chance to take my car on an ice driving course on a frozen lake, I found it much easier to predict the dynamics of car, as well as apply driving output (steering and countersteering) when the aids were completely off.

Just my 2 cents!

Nope. Incorrect. It regularly overrides throttle without informing the driver.

Throw my hat in the "dislike interference" bucket. Often I miss my E36 fleet because I never needed worry about a computer questioning my intent. In the snow it's infuriating if I forget to disable it. Haven't ever had it come on in the dry months when I left it on by mistake (read: I don't spin my tires) but I imagine I'd be more likely to cause an accident anticipating, correcting, and then the car decides to make a correction on top of me.

Say what? How's that work?

Then your car is broken.

I can't take it anymore!


*Do electronic aids help or ...

But it's the other way around. The computer detects a problem, then you detect a problem, then computer reacts and then you react on top of the computer.

The computer is super fast with its responses.

*sigh* I guess I have to take some logs to prove my point. It takes a sensitive butt dyno. Stay tuned. I'll stack this onto the pile.

For now, stab the throttle mid-turn. Then do the same in pedal-dance mode.

Next time driving at highway speed in heavy rain, do the same in a straight line. Hopefully you'll notice how it pulls throttle when it detects even the slightest hint of hydroplane.

I'm not saying it doesn't. I'm just saying it always illuminates the dash light when doing so. At least it is supposed to. It would go against the vehicle's programming for the TC or SC to engage without alerting the driver via the lights on the instrument cluster.

Think about it. There are ZERO benefits to the system intervening without a visual cue. Otherwise all you are doing is confusing the driver, and potentially making them think something is wrong with the car.

I have a very sensitive butt dyno, and I've never had the car step in without visual confirmation.

I think it only blinks when it taps the brakes. I'm dead serious about the no-warning throttle pull. I think it doesn't flash because drivers would complain if they knew just how much the system intervenes.

Forsure it kicks in from time to time without the light. It seems to only light up when it's getting belligerent which it is typically. Maybe there have been changes to how it works. My car is a 2013.

I'll have to take my car out next time it rains and **** around and see what happens. Maybe I'm wrong, or maybe I just am always aggressive enough with the throttle that I've never experienced the "gentle reduction" mode, lol.

Unless you regularly pedal dance, you would never notice because the behavior is the same with the long press.